Restrictions on who can award black belts

[Oldbear343]

Well, it happened. I have just been asked if I will join a new Association practising the same style. Apparently 100+ people have already jumped ship from AKSP to GSKK-P. Both are based in Portugal, reporting to the Seigokan Hombu in Himeji, Japan....

 

[chrispillertkd]

Well, it happened. I have just been asked if I will join a new Association practising the same style. Apparently 100+ people have already jumped ship from AKSP to GSKK-P. Both are based in Portugal, reporting to the Seigokan Hombu in Himeji, Japan....

I guess I'm a little confused. Is the Seigokan Hombu a different entity than the Japanese Seigokan organization that you mentioned in your first post? If it is not then it seems that non-Japanese would still not be allowed to issue dan grades. Is that right?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, it happened. I have just been asked if I will join a new Association practising the same style. Apparently 100+ people have already jumped ship from AKSP to GSKK-P. Both are based in Portugal, reporting to the Seigokan Hombu in Himeji, Japan....

Are those two associations actually under different rules? When you say "reporting to", what does that mean?

 

[Oldbear343]

I guess I'm a little confused. Is the Seigokan Hombu a different entity than the Japanese Seigokan organization that you mentioned in your first post? If it is not then it seems that non-Japanese would still not be allowed to issue dan grades. Is that right?

Pax,

Chris

Hi Chris. the Hombu us the headquarters of the same Japanese Association. I do not know whether the situation on dan gradings has changed. I do know, however, that a newer branch of Seigokan in Portugal, the GSKK-P, is wooing members of the older AKSP....

 

[Oldbear343]

Both are calling themselves Seigokan. Seigokan as I understand it has only one governing body, SAJKA.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In the Japanese Seigokan Goju Ryu association I have trained with for 4 years now, the Japanese authorities have suddenly decided that non-Japanese instructors, whatever their rank, cannot award black belt grades.

This includes people such as Santana Shihan, 6th Dan, Technical Director of Seigokan Europe. His grade was awarded by the Japanese, along with oversight of all Europe. Dan Grades awarded by him in previous times were recognised.

I would be Interested in your opinions on this, because it seems to me that the Japanese, so keen on honour and respect, are denying honour and respect to non-Japanese instructors within their own hierarchy....

If the non-Japanese instructors believe they aren't being treated fairly, and I would agree with them on that, then they perhaps should break off and start their own Goju Ryu association.

 

[Oldbear343]

If the non-Japanese instructors believe they aren't being treated fairly, and I would agree with them on that, then they perhaps should break off and start their own Goju Ryu association.

That's pretty much what I thought. What has happened however is a little different: there is now a breakaway association formed by some of the instructors, but they are trying to remain within the Japanese umbrella - it seems their main reason for splitting off is one of personality issues....

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's pretty much what I thought. What has happened however is a little different: there is now a breakaway association formed by some of the instructors, but they are trying to remain within the Japanese umbrella - it seems their main reason for splitting off is one of personality issues....

It has been my experience that "personality issues" are the main reason for that kind of split.

 

[JP3]

The Japanese and Okinawan 's are good people but like it or not for many there is still a prejudice attitude towards non Asians.

It's not like the Japanese people have a slight history of racism and elitism.

That sort of ugly truth being said, and I know that just about any people have a similar sort of history, I think the "attempting to stay on top" theory described above is most likely accurate. Pretty much the same thing fractured the ATA in the early to mid 90s, and another variation of it happened in the Tomiki branch of aikido via the JAA, which had a split off of the JAA-USA, which then broke again.... etc etc.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It has been my experience that "personality issues" are the main reason for that kind of split.

It has been my experience that "personality issues" are often more accurately described as "ego issues."

 

[JR 137]

It has been my experience that "personality issues" are often more accurately described as "ego issues."

Then add money to the mix.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then add money to the mix.

Oddly, I've yet to run into that being much of an issue. Maybe because the associations I've dealt with were fairly small.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

In the Japanese Seigokan Goju Ryu association I have trained with for 4 years now, the Japanese authorities have suddenly decided that non-Japanese instructors, whatever their rank, cannot award black belt grades.

This includes people such as Santana Shihan, 6th Dan, Technical Director of Seigokan Europe. His grade was awarded by the Japanese, along with oversight of all Europe. Dan Grades awarded by him in previous times were recognised.

I would be Interested in your opinions on this, because it seems to me that the Japanese, so keen on honour and respect, are denying honour and respect to non-Japanese instructors within their own hierarchy....

I stopped caring about belts long ago. When Funakoshi awarded the first black belts ever in the history of karate, he himself had no belt or rank.

Let that sink in.

 

[Buka]

I stopped caring about belts long ago. When Funakoshi awarded the first black belts ever in the history of karate, he himself had no belt or rank.

Let that sink in.

Which sentence?

 

[JR 137]

I stopped caring about belts long ago. When Funakoshi awarded the first black belts ever in the history of karate, he himself had no belt or rank.

Let that sink in.

Were did you get that information from?

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

Were did you get that information from?

Funakoshi borrowed the belt concept from Judo. In those days, there were no ranks in karate. The first black belts were awarded by Funakoshi in a private ceremony.

Where did I get that from? Hm. My memory is fuzzy, but I'm certain I read it in Funakoshi's autobiography.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Funakoshi borrowed the belt concept from Judo. In those days, there were no ranks in karate. The first black belts were awarded by Funakoshi in a private ceremony.

Where did I get that from? Hm. My memory is fuzzy, but I'm certain I read it in Funakoshi's autobiography.

I seem to remember it being in there, too.

 

[JR 137]

Funakoshi borrowed the belt concept from Judo. In those days, there were no ranks in karate. The first black belts were awarded by Funakoshi in a private ceremony.

Where did I get that from? Hm. My memory is fuzzy, but I'm certain I read it in Funakoshi's autobiography.

Sorry, I was replying to something else somewhere else and the website was glitchy. Somehow it quoted your post.

Here's the article you're probably remembering from...

How the masters got their ranks: the origins of karate ranks – Judo Info

But if you think about it, Jigoro Kano did the same. He didn't give himself a black belt before giving his first black belt students one. As far as I know, Kano's invention of the black belt came about unintentionally. He brought a group of students to another judo school. The person running that school asked Kano which were his top 3 (I think 3) students so he could pair them up with his top 3. Kano tied a black strip of cloth around their waists to easily identify them. Then he allegedly began the kyu/dan system shortly afterward, taking from the game go and possibly swimming.

The kyu/dan system origins history is pretty muddy, but that version of history seems most credible to me. I think it was a judo teacher in Europe who expanded the kyu standards, but it was started by Kano and the other teacher's work was approved and further refined by Kano.

Sources? Several on the internet and books. All of which escape my memory.

 

[Spaceman10]

Definitely sounds either cultural or political or both. Politics have always had a big part in the world of martial arts especially when it comes to big organizations. Something similar happened with my organization. My sensei split from the Ueshiro Shorin-ryu Karate USA organization in the early 90s. Basically what happened is she was married to her Sensei who was the CEO of the organization. When they got divorced she was basically excommunicated. So she ended up forming her own organization which she is now Hanshi of. Exact same style, just a different organization. It all boils down to politics.