Recent Video by Alan Orr

[SaulGoodman]

Hi. Force Flow is technically not 'invisible' if you have the right instrumentation. For example, if I had a very powerful microscope, perhaps electron, you can see, albeit interpreted, a force passing through an object.

In branches of mathematics 'force flow' would be referred to as a vector and here a force vector. There are some materials that enable one to see the distribution of a load and the force exerted throughout the material.

For example please see this video.

03:56 is where you see some photoelastic material put under stress and the force flow through it. If your bones were made of this material or other parts of your body you would be able to see the force vectors pass through. Likewise, if you had good instrumentation you could 'see it' pass through bones and flesh too.

We can either talk physics properly and use the correct terms or choose a half way house such as force flow as most don't do mathematics and physics.

In sum, yes, to the human eye it is invisible but it is there and I hope to have provided some thoughts that may allow some to understand the idea of force flow a little better.

Sometimes when we talk about having good structure we are talking about the ratio of a force vector that passes through the skeletal structure as opposed to the more fleshy parts and if your body had the same properties of that photoelastic material, you would be able see how that ratio changes as you position and reposition your body to be more structurally aligned or not.

It is true, when we have incorrect tension the force vector will distribute to the fleshy parts over the skeletal structure and this is what some people mean by it becoming 'jammed'. There is nothing mystical it is all just science. The issue is always one of articulation and the extent to which some will exploit ignorance here to insert their own frameworks. Others, as stated, attempt a half way house because most folk are not good with overly technical and 'scientific' terminology. 'Reaching/attaining Song' helps prevent 'jamming' in my view and allows one to 'feel' a vector force and to use it more efficiently.

This is why SLT is so important as one is dealing with just gravity and the ground reaction force and the meditative aspect trains you to attend to the sensations in your body and to identify the force vectors passing through, whilst allowing you to play with body positions to experience changes in that ratio and to reach Song in this very basic mechanical system; gravity and the ground reaction force i.e. just those simple force vectors.

I hope some find what I write above useful.

Cheers

Great explanation, but I fear in some quarters people will still not accept its a tangible attribute to practice.

 

[Alan Orr]

I wasn't comparing it to WSLVT at all. KPM brought that up.

I'll say it once again...

Force flow in your body may be invisible, but anyone with eyesight will not be blind to the physical effect it should have on the opponent's body as you manipulate their balance, bouncing them around while striking them, as can clearly be seen in your demos.

Yet that never happens in fights by your team though you present the skill as a goal of the training to be used directly in fighting.

Again, you seem unwilling to address this disconnect and just call me blind for not seeing something that never happens.

As I have said my guys do use the skills in their fights. Against tough opponent in a live fight a lot of movement is countered and recounted. The whole point of force flow skills is sequence control to gain the edge, which is what you see live. My guys have great success and are known for being powerful and tough - these are what the opponent feels as my guys are not above average strength. I am not above average strength but most guys tell me I feel super strong when I'm in fact not working that hard. These are the results from the training of the skills. Training you have a limited insight to what we do so application more so. As I said turn up sometime and feel it rather that guess all the time. Oh introduce yourself, what is your name?

 

[JustSomePerson]

Great explanation, but I fear in some quarters people will still not accept its a tangible attribute to practice.

Possibly. Everything I wrote is in the science books regardless of whether you apply it to wing chun or not. That's just the fact of the matter plain and simple and we can all feel compressive forces, tensile forces,. etc in our bodies, in our joints and in our bones (bones hurt when they break).

Thing is it is a restful mind that finds it most easy to attend to those nerve endings and the resulting 'feelings' in the mind:body coupling (should never have been divided in philosophy IMO).

People can continue to be 'flat earthers' but now that I have given the game away as to what we are really talking about, I think most rational people will come on board now. Photoelastic material is a great way to introduce the concept as are mechanical diagrams. I imagine I might start seeing people opting to use similar examples to get their ideas across now (that 'free use' has happened to me before and I don't mind).

When I read that people don't see force flow in other arts or in mma etc., I do cringe as, well, regardless of ones proficiency in exploiting force vectors its there; that's just the fact of the matter plain and simple.

I have been compiling drawings of all the major joints (bows) and actually calculating the vector force ratios as I described based upon positions using bog standard mechanics and trigonometry aka field of bio-mechanics on steroids. But that's just me, I am anally retentive and a bit autistic (true) and go that in depth. It is not for everyone nor required to be a top level wing chun practitioner with a high level of kung fu.

I will say this, its trained in bjj and other arts too just the language is different so yes, whilst people may say not tangible to train, if they look at their training they will find aspects that DO directly train it. This is what is so funny about this thread and certain folks responses. However, it does not help when some folk are equally argumentative and very stand offish in their attempts to position what they believe as 'above', 'greater than' or 'better'; there lies an ego grasping for legacy.

p.s.

(I am tired of the science bit in wing chun books just being focused on force = , acceleration = , impulse =, etc., because mechanics force diagrams, trig and vectors are far more relevant for SLT and all this discussion of force flow and Song. I can think of a few reasons why the correct bits of maths and physics have not been utilised to date in the many, many wing chun books out there and why each and every bow or major joint, the nuances of their shapes and seating, have not been written about)

 

[JustSomePerson]

...The whole point of force flow skills is sequence control to gain the edge ...

It really works. You could most probably set up photoelastic material in a system to watch a sequence to see the force flow and amplify, regardless of whether its loaded via an external 'force' i.e. pressure and compression of another person on your structure and body first. In terms of loading, you can see that too via the material I cite i.e. that potential energy is in the material and why to the eye you don't 'see' it per se; it loads in the bones, the other parts of the body and the ground upon which you stand.

Again, it may be a bit anally retentive to use that material to do that but sometimes, as this thread has shown, people need to 'see' something quite literally to understand it. Personally, I am going to spend that time instead trying to get it right in my own body so that I can apply it.

 

[SaulGoodman]

It really works. You could most probably set up photoelastic material in a system to watch a sequence to see the force flow and amplify, regardless of whether its loaded via an external 'force' i.e. pressure and compression of another person on your structure and body first. In terms of loading, you can see that too via the material I cite i.e. that potential energy is in the material and why to the eye you don't 'see' it per se; it loads in the bones, the other parts of the body and the ground upon which you stand.

Again, it may be a bit anally retentive to use that material to do that but sometimes, as this thread has shown, people need to 'see' something quite literally to understand it. Personally, I am going to spend that time instead trying to get it right in my own body so that I can apply it.

I guess ultimately this is what they call "hidden skills" in CMA? I would be interested to see if a practitioner of an art like Hsing Yi or Bagua has problems grasping "force flow", I suspect not as after reading a lot of material recently on the subject internal arts seem to be familiar with these concepts.

 

[JustSomePerson]

I guess ultimately this is what they call "hidden skills" in CMA? I would be interested to see if a practitioner of an art like Hsing Yi or Bagua has problems grasping "force flow", I suspect not as after reading a lot of material recently on the subject internal arts seem to be familiar with these concepts.

Yes you are right. What's different now from the ancient period, PERHAPS (I don't know enough to give a definitive answer here), is that some folk are very, very skilled and have created exercises that really help engender those skills quickly.

Granted such individual exercises are not original creations in the strictest sense of the term but the way they have been combined is. In other words it is not the variables i.e. each exercise, but the formulea i,e. program of exercises and how its been put together that is perhaps novel and new.

I imagine as I age and discover new things I may have to take the above statement back but for now I offer it up to be schooled otherwise, or not as the case may be.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Maybe some people didn't even realize they had these skills but just "did them" when necessary and didn't feel the need/want to teach these skills in a formalized way?

 

[JustSomePerson]

Maybe some people didn't even realize they had these skills but just "did them" when necessary and didn't feel the need/want to teach these skills in a formalized way?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Great observations Jowga, sounds like you have an excellent instructor! Was looking at some clips from your system the other day, very nice fluid/flowing art with good footwork and fast hand combinations. The hands in particular don't look disimilair to Wing Chun in some cases, I understand there is a hung gar influence there?

Thanks. There are very few bad Jow Ga Sifus, thank goodness and most are open minded and don't have big egos which helps. Many Jow Ga sifu's and instructors talk to Sifu's in other fighting systems as well. I think Jow Ga has one of the most aggressive foot work systems out there. I'll put it this way. You can give me any Jow Ga form and I can probably show 10+ times of where the footwork will try to break the root of the opponent or where it applies what WC calls "flow of force" to knock the opponent off balance.

You are correct about the Hung gar influence.

 

[LFJ]

Force vector is not a difficult concept to understand. I see good body mechanics in their fights, in their punching. I understand that much just fine, and I'm not objecting to it. Pretty basic stuff.

What Alan demos though, is a skill of manipulating the opponent's balance in a very particular way while striking them. He says this is directly applicable in fighting. This is what we never see.

If it's not seen because as he says, a tough fighter will counter and recounter, then that seems to mean it never actually works considering there are many of their fights online, but no one is able to point to one where it happens.

Feeling it for myself doesn't demonstrate that it ever works in fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hi. Force Flow is technically not 'invisible' if you have the right instrumentation. For example, if I had a very powerful microscope, perhaps electron, you can see, albeit interpreted, a force passing through an object.

In branches of mathematics 'force flow' would be referred to as a vector and here a force vector. There are some materials that enable one to see the distribution of a load and the force exerted throughout the material.

For example please see this video.

03:56 is where you see some photoelastic material put under stress and the force flow through it. If your bones were made of this material or other parts of your body you would be able to see the force vectors pass through. Likewise, if you had good instrumentation you could 'see it' pass through bones and flesh too.

We can either talk physics properly and use the correct terms or choose a half way house such as force flow as most don't do mathematics and physics.

In sum, yes, to the human eye it is invisible but it is there and I hope to have provided some thoughts that may allow some to understand the idea of force flow a little better.

Sometimes when we talk about having good structure we are talking about the ratio of a force vector that passes through the skeletal structure as opposed to the more fleshy parts and if your body had the same properties of that photoelastic material, you would be able see how that ratio changes as you position and reposition your body to be more structurally aligned or not.

It is true, when we have incorrect tension the force vector will distribute to the fleshy parts over the skeletal structure and this is what some people mean by it becoming 'jammed'. There is nothing mystical it is all just science. The issue is always one of articulation and the extent to which some will exploit ignorance here to insert their own frameworks. Others, as stated, attempt a half way house because most folk are not good with overly technical and 'scientific' terminology. 'Reaching/attaining Song' helps prevent 'jamming' in my view and allows one to 'feel' a vector force and to use it more efficiently.

This is why SLT is so important as one is dealing with just gravity and the ground reaction force and the meditative aspect trains you to attend to the sensations in your body and to identify the force vectors passing through, whilst allowing you to play with body positions to experience changes in that ratio and to reach Song in this very basic mechanical system; gravity and the ground reaction force i.e. just those simple force vectors.

I hope some find what I write above useful.

Cheers

When I teach about "force flow" I usually just use the term energy and force. Energy is what moves through the body and force is the end result of that energy moving through the body and interacting with an object. For example, when looking at a jab the power that is being generated to throw the jab is the energy. The exit points of that energy as it strikes an object is the force. How the energy leaves the fist determines how hard the fists lands.

My explanation for when a person hits a heavy bag and his wrists collapse: This is because the energy is leaving your wrist and not your fist. When the fist's impact is at an incorrect angle then the majority of that energy continues upon it's natural path which is linear resulting in the folding of the wrist and the continued forward motion of the body and energy. When you watch the a fist collapse in slow motion, you can see that the wrist almost touches the bag.

(a video would probably explain this better)
People who hyper-extend their elbow when jabbing are doing so because that's where the energy is leaving the body. The easiest and safest way to understand this is to put a coin where your elbow bends (bicep side) and pop the coin upward. The reason the coin pops upward is because the energy is coming out of the elbow. Now drive that energy through your fist and you'll notice that the coin goes forward more than it goes up. The coin travels the same direction as the energy.

In a fighting application the concept can also be applied to being able to detect the energy from your opponent through the force that it causes. When you get really good at it you'll be able to tell when your opponent is off balance without actually looking at your opponent even if the contact is brief. From experience it's like time slows down and you literally get a mental picture of how your opponent is off balance. I'm not good at it yet because I can't detect this at will. To learn this is not a quick learning process. I requires that you are in tune with your body and that you are paying attention to how your body reacts to objects around you.

When student do our warm up exercises moving side ways"side hops", running, running backwards, and "side hops" with rotations, I'll always remind mind them not to just move but to pay attention to how their body is moving, how their muscles are reacting as they move. I want them to pay attention to everything including to how the foot lands and hit the ground.

Tai Chi trains how to detect small changes in force, being too stiff, too tense, or too loose will work against you and prevent the ability to feel the changes of force against your body.
I thought Chi Sao purpose was to train similar sensitivity but reflecting back on some of the videos, it seems that this is not the case for many WC practitioners. I think that maybe some practice Chi Sao with too much force. For what I've been able to experience, there is always a smaller force that comes before the larger force. If you can detect that smaller force then you can tell when the larger force is coming. This force is even smaller for someone who is off balanced. Try standing on one leg with your eyes closed and arms to the side, while the other leg bent as if you are trying to touch your but with your heel. You'll feel energy run crazy through your body as you try to maintain balance. When you can detect that imbalance in another person who is on two legs then everything that I stated above will make more sense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I guess ultimately this is what they call "hidden skills" in CMA? I would be interested to see if a practitioner of an art like Hsing Yi or Bagua has problems grasping "force flow", I suspect not as after reading a lot of material recently on the subject internal arts seem to be familiar with these concepts.

It's more of a "non-trained skilled" in martial arts. By "non-trained" I mean it's not trained as application during free sparring.

 

[guy b.]

Force vector is not a difficult concept to understand. I see good body mechanics in their fights, in their punching. I understand that much just fine, and I'm not objecting to it. Pretty basic stuff.

Agreed. I don't understand why these basic ideas are made out to be so complex. Basic mechanics, vectors - these things are taught in school to 13 year olds. They aren't difficult to understand.

If it's not seen because as he says, a tough fighter will counter and recounter, then that seems to mean it never actually works considering there are many of their fights online, but no one is able to point to one where it happens.

Feeling it for myself doesn't demonstrate that it ever works in fighting.

This is correct. If it provides no quantifiable advantage, no effect that can be seen, then what is it for?

 

[guy b.]

If you are blind to it then not much we can show you. WSL Wing Chun is not the same as what we do. I know that style well. Its not the same approach. Once you have first hand experience then maybe you will feel the difference

Why wouldn't you be able to describe in simple terms what it is that you are doing differently?

If you know WSL VT well then a simple point by point comparison should be easy.

 

[guy b.]

You came to a small general class 8 years ago for an hour? So you think you know about our training and level? My guys at the the where fighting MMA and had good success already.

I came to your class to see what you were like. After that I decided that anything else was easier to do without you there.

Our main training was not in the general beginners class.

I know, you tried to flog that too.

to listen to some fool on a forum talk down his mma record makes me sick.

I'm not talking down Peter Irving's MMA record. To go mental because someone mentions the reality of his fight record is a bit unbalanced though.

 

[JustSomePerson]

Hello guy_b

I think you are being unfair to Alan. The idea of sequencing is in physiotherapy and more 'western' approaches to bio-mechanics and it is knowledge that is not really on the syllabus that is taught to 13 year olds. It is far more advanced and at a university degree level.

I also say this of force vectors and some of the more complex mechanical processes (lower than degree level depending on complexity of the msystem studied), having taught mathematics in a secondary school context and having written and spoken on the mathematics syllabus and changes to it over the last 50 years of secondary school education. I have also taught at university at a post graduate level.

Yes, the syllabus has been dumbed down but examples of it are out there so one can quite easily compare your statement to facts and I say this with respects to curricular internationally (not just the English speaking world which is very dumbed down). I do, however, agree with some of your points with respects to the clarity of the articulations put forwards of late but knowing the contexts, I view some of those criticisms as a little unfair.

What we find in some of the more esoteric eastern literature are thesis on mechanics that pre-date much of contemporary western thought but given 'imperialism' and a western-centric imperialism at that (waning rapidly), it is understandable that many do not appreciate the teachings of an older kind.

Indeed, with respects to looking at force flow through the human body and even 'qi flow', western perspectives are still only now catching up and where the 'spiral' is only now starting to enter the lexicon in terms of that very 'hard' scientific approach of the western centric mind. Its only recently that instrumentation has been developed to either falsify or verify the teachings of the older generations in esoteric literature and all signs, to date, are pointing towards verification.

I should have written the book I said I was going to write over dropping hints on forums and trying to encourage others to orientate their articulations towards what I view as a more truthful and factual account. If I finish my writings I will post it and offer it up for free and as an anonymous authour because if one is genuine in ones aims and moral and ethical frameworks, that is the correct and right thing to do. We show ourselves through our actions and the means through which we achieve our ends and together, they indicate our initial intent.

Namaste

 

[KPM]

I

I'm not talking down Peter Irving's MMA record. To go mental because someone mentions the reality of his fight record is a bit unbalanced though.

Uh...you called him a "low to mid" MMA fighter, which is kind of "talking down" I think. His record seems better than that to me!

Peter Irving MMA Stats, Pictures, News, Videos, Biography - Sherdog.com

http://www.fightersonlymag.com/content/interviews/14394-One-to-Watch--Peter-Irving

What's your Pro MMA record Guy?

 

[SaulGoodman]

He talks about people being unbalanced?

What part of :

"Post a credible clip and we can talk. Until then you are nothing and you stink of fear. I would smash you up standing I think. And I would break you to bits on the ground."

Is balanced?

 

[guy b.]

Post a credible clip and we can talk. Until then you are nothing and you stink of fear. I would smash you up standing I think. And I would break you to bits on the ground

I take it you haven't met Frost, the resident kung fu magazine wing chun troll, and his various aliases. Or maybe you have?

 

[KPM]

I take it you haven't met Frost, the resident kung fu magazine wing chun troll, and his various aliases. Or maybe you have?

Doesn't matter who the comment was directed at. Sounds a bit "unbalanced" to me regardless!