Realistic Training !!

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Don Roley

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I am suprised that Don agrees with the methodology, especially since it is not practiced in Japan, or taught by the shihan.

I guess a good training method is a good training method, right?

Yes. But you may note that I do not try to force my views about Quinn in threads here. I mention it from time to time. But there is a whole lot of stuff we can learn from the lessons of those that have gone before us. This is the section to talk about those lessons from Japan and not something else.

I am not against other forms of training, despite what some have tried to say. But when I read threads here I don't want to hear about something that approaches the problem differently than the guys in Japan. Others have already complained about how lately it seems that there are people intent in making sure that no one else can talk or train other than how they do and wondered why they feel the need to force their views on others.
 

makoto-dojo

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I think the reason you got so much flak in the thread you started was that you posted it in a section devoted to discussions about how training is done in Japan. If you freely admit that what you do is not how the training is done in Japan, then there are other areas that you can post it in without sounding like you are trying to seem more knowledgeable than the soke of the art you study.

Mr. Roley,

thank you for your post. I suppose I misunderstood this forum then. I assumed that it was just "x-kan" talk I didn't know it was limited to Japan style training. So, sumimasen to anyone I offended with my posts.

However I do see topics in this forum that speak about training different than done in Japan, even some of the training you have mentioned in this very thread. or the sparring related thread etc.

So to be honest, I'm just not understanding, I still see a double standard. But in the end its only a forum no big deal... :)

Best,
 

makoto-dojo

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I am not against other forms of training, despite what some have tried to say. But when I read threads here I don't want to hear about something that approaches the problem differently than the guys in Japan. Others have already complained about how lately it seems that there are people intent in making sure that no one else can talk or train other than how they do and wondered why they feel the need to force their views on others.


Mr. Roley,

I am not saying you are talking about me here, but just in case, or in case someone else might think you are, I would like to say a few things.

I truly do not see how I am forcing my views on anyone here. I mean, it is a discussion forum is it not? I also assumed it was a "free speech" discussion forum. In other words, as long as you are not breaking any rules, I didn't see where you had to agree with someone in order to post here.

I could argue that others are trying to force their opinions on me here! LOL!

Let me give you an example. Ben Cole (and, btw, I have no hard feelings for Ben. I find that our views are just about as different as you can get on most things Budo, but I don't take it personal...) Ben could be accused of pontificating on every board he joins, he out-right states that he understands Mr. Hatsumi and can recreate many things he does. He out-right say's his way is the correct way and almost bullies others with different views. Can he be accused of forcing his views on others?


Of course not! because it is a disscussion forum LOL! You are not forced to read his views, and if you do, you are not forced to believe them! LOL! I read some of his stuff, I ignore others stuff. I agree sometimes and don't agree other times, but I never felt forced to believe or adopt his logic and ways!

If I write with vigor, it is because I am debating! LOL! It almost seems like people have weak opinions and when faced with a strong opinion the feel bullied. You yourself have been VERY forcefull in your views on forums and you know it is true. Are you "forcing" your views on people? I never took it that way. I just always assumed that you were confident in your opinions...

What I honestly believe is the true problem (not saying you btw) is that before I and maybe others came on here, most people were bujinkan and most people agreed with each other. I and others had strong differing opinions and it upset the apple cart. So, people complained.

And also, some people just have an axe to grind with me (which is their problem, kind of strange I matter so much to people I never even met) some of them are moderators here as well which allows them to abuse their station due to their bias (but that's cool...)

In the end, while you or others may never like me, I can assure you one thing, if we were to meet face to face, and you could hear my voice and see my face, you would understand that I mean no disrespect and actually after a hearty debate, I would be fine with agreeing to disagree and buy you a drink.

In the end, its just opinions, no more no less, we are all doing what we feel is best. I admit I am passionate, but believe it or not, I do not think badly of any of you and actually respect you all for being so passionate about the traditions we all love so much.

Anyway that's how I feel about it.

Sincerely,
 

Rubber Tanto

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No, not the way I do strikes to the eyes. I put my thumbs in the eye sockets. You can't do that with these.
that is just one isolated technique...you're saying to throw the whole concept of training with such equipment over a boshiken?

Nor can you do a lot of the stuff that imapcts the neck. When someone is hit on the chin in a boxing ring and goes down, it is the whiplash of the kneck that really knocks them out.
Not all the time and it depends on the person. I did kick boxing before I was in the bujinkan and I was a bouncer during that time for a nightclub. I have been hit on the chin quite a few times and it doesn't effect me like that. It's the punch that clcoks the chin that you are not ready for that drops you.

And it looks like you are training with this type of stuff to get the habit of striking to the face with a closed fist. That is not something I do.

Bad assumption. I actually train very little with a headguard. I prefer myself and my partner to train without guards. Just mma mitts. Most people in my dojo prefer the headguard during full contact randori. Outside the dojo those I train with are not so concerened.

Try talking to some people with a lot of experience hitting other people.

25 years MA experience. Tried my hand at competition, worked as a bouncer...hmm...shall I talk to myself? (My wife might think I'm daft!)

They will say that something like a shakoken to the chin and then attacking with the shishiken and the like from there while controlling the head and kneck is a better choice.
Sure. I can agree with that.

A lot of people break their hands striking with a closed fist to the face.
that's what happens when you don't know how to make a proper fist and get used to hitting soft targets or wear mitts all the time. That's why I work my sand-filled punching bag bare fisted only.

You can't do this with what you use, nor can you do it with the bulletman suits. Nothing other than combat is like real combat. And anyone trying to say that because they do "X" that they will do well in combat is just fooling themselves.
Of course! But then could we not argue that if you were to take a person "A" who trains taijutsu, with pressure testing, with resistance, with randori (using proper taijutsu in randori) and with realistic energy drills and put him up against person "B" who trains taijutsu with kata only, that person "A" will be as a massive advantage?

If you look at one part of training (like kata) you will only get one angle on the problem. The problem is that many people take a look at just that one angle and treat it as the whole picture as a straw man argument it seems. And they can't accept the fact that with the thousands of years and mulitiple cultures that have been devoted to hitting other people that there is any other method of learning than their own.

I understand and agree.
That is why I try to train all aspects to further enhance my understanding and ability to apply the delivery system.

Cheers
Nick
 

Don Roley

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that is just one isolated technique...you're saying to throw the whole concept of training with such equipment over a boshiken?

It illustrates that there is no one way to perfectly duplicate a violent encounter. Some scream about how kata, etc is not real fighting and is thus useless. But as I just pointed out, there is no one way that covers everything. Which of course you agreed with me in the following section.

Of course! But then could we not argue that if you were to take a person "A" who trains taijutsu, with pressure testing, with resistance, with randori (using proper taijutsu in randori) and with realistic energy drills and put him up against person "B" who trains taijutsu with kata only, that person "A" will be as a massive advantage?

You seem to be assuming that kata can't have pressure training as part of it and/or that randori is the only way to reach this goal.

There may be things about the Bujinkan you have not seen yet. Things are laid out in an order for a reason. :wink1:
 

Rubber Tanto

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You seem to be assuming that kata can't have pressure training as part of it and/or that randori is the only way to reach this goal.

Not true. And there is no post where you will find I have said randori is THE ONLY way. I apreciate my kata training very much. It is in kata training that I learn to take balance, correct posture, footwork, distancing, technique mechanics & body physics etc. It is in randori that I learn timing, speed and force and to apply what I learnt in kata to someone that does not want it applied.

We also run through kata sometimes where the uke partially resists and certain degrees or resistance. Is this what you are talking about?

There may be things about the Bujinkan you have not seen yet. Things are laid out in an order for a reason. :wink1:
Yes I am sure. Hence why I enjoy it so much.
 

Don Roley

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It is in randori that I learn timing, speed and force and to apply what I learnt in kata to someone that does not want it applied.

We also run through kata sometimes where the uke partially resists and certain degrees or resistance. Is this what you are talking about?

You should not have to rely on randori to teach you things like timing, etc. We have hashed this out before here in another thread. I will try to remember it. But there are a lot of things that go on in kata that is not quite what you are talking about, but close.

However, you may not have seen this because your teacher either thinks you are not ready or he himself was never in a position to see it. I have talked about it before, and I have also talked about how it can't transmitted in large groups and how I do not know how I could do it in an American dojo with all the damn lawyers they have. I do not know about your situation, or who your teacher is, etc.
 

Rook

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You seem to be assuming that kata can't have pressure training as part of it and/or that randori is the only way to reach this goal.

If kata can have pressure testing, you have a very different definition of pressure testing than the one commonly used.
 

Rook

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And it looks like you are training with this type of stuff to get the habit of striking to the face with a closed fist. That is not something I do. Try talking to some people with a lot of experience hitting other people.

I think you should consider watching modern bareknuckle boxing, bareknuckle kickboxing, modern and old bareknucle MMA and notice how few times people break their hands and how little effect it has on them when they do.
 

Seattletcj

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It illustrates that there is no one way to perfectly duplicate a violent encounter. Some scream about how kata, etc is not real fighting and is thus useless. But as I just pointed out, there is no one way that covers everything.

Ok, then we are all on the same page. Although I dont think anyone here has EVER screamed about how kata is useless. Strawman.
Maybe you can point to an example?

You seem to be assuming that kata can't have pressure training as part of it and/or that randori is the only way to reach this goal.
Strawman. No one ever said this, or ever even alluded to it.
Seriously, where do get this idea?
 

Seattletcj

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No, not the way I do strikes to the eyes. I put my thumbs in the eye sockets. You can't do that with these.

From my experience it really does not take much to effect the eyes. Recently I [SIZE=-1]accidentally [/SIZE] tapped my partners eye with a finger in training. He immedately hunched over and had to take a break.
For a more practical solution you could practice precision striking with pads, and trying to get the strike on a moving opponent wearing safty glasses. For power I'd do grip strengthening exercises, hit the heavy bag, and do thumb/finger push-ups etc.
Just another angle.
 

Don Roley

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Ok, then we are all on the same page. Although I dont think anyone here has EVER screamed about how kata is useless. Strawman.
Maybe you can point to an example?

Strawman. No one ever said this, or ever even alluded to it.
Seriously, where do get this idea?

Well, I think there are numerous examples of both. Maybe not in this thread, but they are all over the internet.

For example, for the second point you merely have to look at Rook's next- to- last post. Adding pressure training to kata is possible- if you are at the right level and have the right instructor skilled in doing so. But so few of us have that chance right now. As we grow, hopefully more people will get the chance.
 

Rook

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Well, I think there are numerous examples of both. Maybe not in this thread, but they are all over the internet.

For example, for the second point you merely have to look at Rook's next- to- last post. Adding pressure training to kata is possible- if you are at the right level and have the right instructor skilled in doing so. But so few of us have that chance right now. As we grow, hopefully more people will get the chance.

I think I will just reiterate my point that I think you have come up with a different defination of pressure testing than the one in common usage. I believe Seattlecj is working for a compromise defination of sorts. Pressure testing in the way that the term is normally used means that the activity is attempted in a competitive manner with no set roles (ie no uke-tori dynamic) and no syllabus requirement that either party needs to stay within a certain set (ie there may be prohibitions but anything not explicitly prohibited is fair game, no matter where it came from or how it works). It is full speed, full power, and freeform. Let me know if I need to clarify what is meant.
 

Rubber Tanto

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You should not have to rely on randori to teach you things like timing, etc.

I understand what you are saying here, and yes that I am aware that kata teaches you the timing of the technique. But I feel randori also teaches you a completely different sence of timing. It also helps you understand the flow from one attack/defence to another better.

I really suck at expalining myself at times. I hope this makes sense.

However, you may not have seen this because your teacher either thinks you are not ready or he himself was never in a position to see it.
Possibly. I trust he is doing right by me as I see the difference and improvement in my training day by day. This is the second bujinkan school I am training at. The first one, which I stayed with for about 18 months left me very dissapointed with the quality of instruction. Not so where I am at now. I have never seen a person move so fluidly through an unscripted attack by a uke as my current sensei. To join him, I put him to the test, I tried to hit him by throwing everything at him, he just moved around me and returned fire as if I was a school boy. He left me (and some of my MMA friends) very impressed.
Many of the Bujinkan instructors I have spoken to here in OZ have had many good things to say about my sensei. I believe I am in good hands.
~Cheers
Nick
 

Distance

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Couple of years ago I was introduced to BujinKan and the very first thing I noticed is that my confident speed was actually nullified. Although I am not a student of the BujinKan I was impressed with the level of relaxation involved. I never was "grabbed" so to speak but instead constant responses when I moved. He just would let me go and I ended up twisted in what seemed a whirl wind. I am currently going through the schools in the Austin, Texas area to find an instructor and training group I feel comfortable with.
 

Don Roley

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I think I will just reiterate my point that I think you have come up with a different defination of pressure testing than the one in common usage. I believe Seattlecj is working for a compromise defination of sorts. Pressure testing in the way that the term is normally used means that the activity is attempted in a competitive manner with no set roles (ie no uke-tori dynamic) and no syllabus requirement that either party needs to stay within a certain set (ie there may be prohibitions but anything not explicitly prohibited is fair game, no matter where it came from or how it works). It is full speed, full power, and freeform. Let me know if I need to clarify what is meant.

Interesting.

So intstead of "pressure testing" being just a means of putting pressure on a person while training, the definition you use covers people that train to defeat Ken Shamrock in the ring but not Peytonn Quinn's type of training to allow people to survive a knife attack, etc.
 

Rubber Tanto

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Pressure testing in the way that the term is normally used means that the activity is attempted in a competitive manner with no set roles (ie no uke-tori dynamic)...

No not really.
Pressure testing does not need to be competitive. It needs to be objective, and continuous with little time for the other party to plan. (its the lack of planing time that is where the pressure comes into it.)

Te set roles means little for the exercise. As one of my senseis said a long time ago, commiting one person to each role saves a lot of time in your sparring as you are no longer "hunting" eachother - that way you get a lot more bang for your buck in your three minute session. ;)

I could argue that this is going to be the real situation in a real fight. When you are in a real fight (not a competitive one in this instance) you will either be one of two people, an attacker or a defender...

Of course, training to compete is a completely different mind set as both parties share the same goal.

Does that make sense?
 

Bigshadow

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No not really.
Pressure testing does not need to be competitive. It needs to be objective, and continuous with little time for the other party to plan. (its the lack of planing time that is where the pressure comes into it.)

I really like that description. Working from this, I would like to say, thus far, when I hear people talk about pressure testing, it seems to me that they perceive pressure testing as a means to prove or disprove what works and I guess that is why I really dislike the phrase. Rather than disproving or proving what works, I believe putting the pressure on is more of a measure of what I have learned from budo and what I have not yet learned.

Hope that makes sense, it is still early! :D
 
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