questions for those that train in multiple arts and those who teach

[hemi]

I have a few questions for those that do train in multiple arts and those who teach or own multiple art schools.

One of the things I wanted to ask those that train in more than one style at a time do you feel like you are missing anything in one or both of the styles you train in? Does having to split training time working on new material from one school then the other slow you way down in retaining what you are being taught? Over the last few weeks I’ve seen a lot of posts on cross training more than one style. I got to thinking about it a lot. I even kind of had myself worked up thinking well I’m getting older and by the time I invest five or even ten years in one style I may not have time to retrain in another two styles or even one for that matter. I was thinking maybe I need to add Jujitsu, Judo, and maybe even some TKD to my Kenpo training. But then reality set back in myself, I am one of those people that can only give my full attention to one thing at a time. What I mean is that I would be a better martial artist over all if I stuck with one style for many years vs. training in several styles at the same time. But that’s just me.

Then that brings me to the question for those that teach more that one art at a school. I looked at a few schools in the Dallas area when I was considering going to more than one school at a time. Some of the schools I looked at offered a mix of styles as the primary style they teach. Not to start a toe stomping match but if an instructor has say 3rd Dan in X style and a 4th Dan in Y style and a 5th Dan in Z style and teaches all three as the core curriculum for said school. And as a general rule a student would test for 1st Dan in about 5 years average. Now this is just the opinion of a student that has only been involved in martial arts for about 8 months now. But what would that 1st Dan be? If it took the instructor 10 years to reach 3rd Dan in well use Kenpo for style X, the it took another 10 years for the 4th Dan in Y= TKD and so on for the Z style say Judo.

What would a student have after only 5 years? Wouldn’t the instructor have to leave a lot of material out if you have at least 10 years information to pass on in five? That’s if the instructor studied several styles at one time. Seems to me that they would have to teach just the basics of three styles and leave out a bunch of useful information due to a sheer lack of time? Again I don’t want to anger anyone this is just the ramblings of a first year student in the martial arts. I took the day off today so I have too much time on my hands. (And a belt test to pass tonight) wish me luck.

2004 Hemi

 

[mj_lover]

alot of the basics are generic, systems differ alot in application. the hard part in cross training is keeping the techniques seperated.

 

[Andrew Green]

Nothing wrong with training multiple styles, you'll get a lot better if you see different perspectives and adapt things to yourself.

Of course if your goal is tyrying to preserve a system things change.

I'm not a big fan of one instructor teaching different styles, things should work together. Different classes with different focuses ok, but not seperate styles. But if the instructor is teaching the same thing two different ways that shows that he doesn't believe in either IMO...

 

[arnisador]

Of course if your goal is tyrying to preserve a system things change.

Agreed...and I'm glad that there are people who do that. I'd hate to lose iaido just because it's no longer street-practical.

I'm not a big fan of one instructor teaching different styles, things should work together. Different classes with different focuses ok, but not seperate styles. But if the instructor is teaching the same thing two different ways that shows that he doesn't believe in either IMO...

I've seen both sides of this. I've seen a teacher all but say "I teach art X which is crap but people want and art Y which is great but which most people find too hard." But I study with an instructor who teaches JKD followed immediately by BJJ, and it works very, very well.

I've also seen someone teach a style of kung fu and a style of tai chi, or two paired styles of kung fu (maybe one short-range and one long-range), quite effectively. But I recently met an instructor who teaches 4 styles of kung fu, 2 styles of tai chi, and shuai jiao. What does he believe in? The CMAs in general?

The various FMAs fit together so well that I think you can often teach several of them, if you want. (It depends on which ones.) But two styles of karate usually don't fit as well, in my opinion.

In my experience, different classes with different focuses is an iffy proposition. I know an instructor who has separate grappling, boxing, kickboxing, close-range fighting, and weapons classes. You need to take all of them to get a well-rounded system. People who do that are at the school for 3-4 hours a day, 6 days a week. That's going too far. Another instructor I know teaches the art in class but every month offers one or two special classes on special situations. That works OK to my mind.

Everyone should try a little cross-training, I feel, just so they really know what they're getting out of their main art. I like an instructor who believes in his or her system but also recognizes that no one system has it all. Whether he or she fills that in or encourages the student to do so is another matter.

 

[arnisador]

One of the things I wanted to ask those that train in more than one style at a time do you feel like you are missing anything in one or both of the styles you train in? Does having to split training time working on new material from one school then the other slow you way down in retaining what you are being taught?

For a beginner, possibly. For someone with some experience in a style, adding soem cross-training shouldn't be a problem unless it's overdone.

I was thinking maybe I need to add Jujitsu, Judo, and maybe even some TKD to my Kenpo training. But then reality set back in myself, I am one of those people that can only give my full attention to one thing at a time.

Only you know how true that is. But even if you only try another art for a while, it'll let you know if you have a deficiency in your training or not. Check out some Judo and see what you think! It's different enough to not interfere with your other training.

Some of the schools I looked at offered a mix of styles as the primary style they teach.

I've seen this done well and I've seen it done poorly. It depends.

 

[Danny T]

Excellent question.
Let me ask you this. Did you not study several different classes at the same time when in School? Language, Math, Science, History, Geography, and others. Did you play sports when young and don't many youngsters today play multiple sports. Football, baseball, soccer, basketball, In your job do you do only one thing or have to multi-task performing several different functions within your job?

The different groups of the examples listed have many aspects in common making it rather simple to do them in the together. When first doing something completely new it can and probably will be overwhelming. Once you have a bit of experience you will be able to relate to that which is common. The same hold true with martial art and it's training. No matter what system you train in it will be a human performing movements, and actions within the abilities of a human. The major differences will be what it is called, how it is introduced, and the manner it is trained. A punch is a punch a kick is a kick. There will be nuances and variations which differ but there is far more that will be similar then what is different.

What I found along my martial art journey was by training in multi systems and styles within the systems was a greater understanding of myself and my abilities within my art. In may instances there was a reinforcement for what I already had, in others there was small aspect of something within the art I simply had no grasp of that the cross training revealed to me. "So THAT is what that movement could be!!"

As to the multiple classes in our school, approx. half train in only 1 art. 25% training at least 2 arts and the 25% cross training in all classes. Those training in all classes actually advance faster than those training in only 1 art.
1. time actually spent training. 2. they train with a greater diversity of people therefore giving them more experience. 3. there are different ways to skin a cat. (I have seen students struggle within an art, have them train in one of the other classes and suddenly they excel in their first art.)
The saying, "I can't see the forest because of the trees", can be a good anology here. I believe training in multiple systems is an impetus for growth.

Danny Terrell

 

[MJS]

I.

One of the things I wanted to ask those that train in more than one style at a time do you feel like you are missing anything in one or both of the styles you train in?

No. I do my best to try to get an equal balance of everything.

Does having to split training time working on new material from one school then the other slow you way down in retaining what you are being taught?

This is why its important to practise as much as possible. Even if you're without a partner, running through the material in the air will help you retain that info.

Over the last few weeks I’ve seen a lot of posts on cross training more than one style. I got to thinking about it a lot. I even kind of had myself worked up thinking well I’m getting older and by the time I invest five or even ten years in one style I may not have time to retrain in another two styles or even one for that matter. I was thinking maybe I need to add Jujitsu, Judo, and maybe even some TKD to my Kenpo training. But then reality set back in myself, I am one of those people that can only give my full attention to one thing at a time. What I mean is that I would be a better martial artist over all if I stuck with one style for many years vs. training in several styles at the same time. But that’s just me.

Having a base art is important. Cross training is not for everyone. Some are happy with doing one art for many years, and others are happy with doing two for many years. Everyones goals are different. There is so much out there though I think its good to explore other things.

Then that brings me to the question for those that teach more that one art at a school. I looked at a few schools in the Dallas area when I was considering going to more than one school at a time. Some of the schools I looked at offered a mix of styles as the primary style they teach. Not to start a toe stomping match but if an instructor has say 3rd Dan in X style and a 4th Dan in Y style and a 5th Dan in Z style and teaches all three as the core curriculum for said school. And as a general rule a student would test for 1st Dan in about 5 years average. Now this is just the opinion of a student that has only been involved in martial arts for about 8 months now. But what would that 1st Dan be? If it took the instructor 10 years to reach 3rd Dan in well use Kenpo for style X, the it took another 10 years for the 4th Dan in Y= TKD and so on for the Z style say Judo.

What would a student have after only 5 years? Wouldn’t the instructor have to leave a lot of material out if you have at least 10 years information to pass on in five? That’s if the instructor studied several styles at one time. Seems to me that they would have to teach just the basics of three styles and leave out a bunch of useful information due to a sheer lack of time? Again I don’t want to anger anyone this is just the ramblings of a first year student in the martial arts. I took the day off today so I have too much time on my hands. (And a belt test to pass tonight) wish me luck.

2004 Hemi

There are many people out there that have put in many years, who also have mult. ranks. I would be cautious though of someone thats claiming mult. rankings, with little time in.

In closing, good luck to you on your test! Let us know how you do!

Mike

 

[Henderson]

Personally, I believe "cross-training" to be beneficial in multiple ways. Even if it only serves to expose a student to other fighting methods. In our school we train in multiple arts that compliment each other because they share some guiding principles. This cross training does not involve grading in multiple arts, though. Our Daishizen Goju Ryu curriculum includes many, many Judo and Small Circle Jujutsu components because they share the "ju" concept, in addition to being very valid techniques. The same applies to those that choose to participate in the Serrada Escrima portion of the curriculum. But in the end, the student holds only one grade.

 

[MJS]

Personally, I believe "cross-training" to be beneficial in multiple ways. 1) Even if it only serves to expose a student to other fighting methods. 2) In our school we train in multiple arts that compliment each other because they share some guiding principles. 3)This cross training does not involve grading in multiple arts, though. Our Daishizen Goju Ryu curriculum includes many, many Judo and Small Circle Jujutsu components because they share the "ju" concept, in addition to being very valid techniques. The same applies to those that choose to participate in the Serrada Escrima portion of the curriculum. But in the end, the student holds only one grade.

1) Exactly!! That is one of the reasons I do it. There are people that specialize in certain areas. If I was looking to improve on my punching, doing some training with a boxer, to finetune your striking may be a good idea.

2) Good point!! If someone is already doing a stand up art, but wanted to improve on their ground game, crosstraining in another stand up art, may prove to be counter productive.

3) Another good point!! I think that many times when people hear crosstraining, they assume that this is going to involve rank, which is not always the case. I crosstrain in BJJ, but do not have a desire at this time to test for rank. That of course may change in the future.

Mike

 

[still learning]

Hello, In Hawaii anytime you have more than one choice of food in your plate, it is call mix plate!

Today many people in the martial arts have MIX PLATES in their training. As teachers and students.

We were told if you start in a new style you do things there way. When you become a teacher for them you teach them there way. But at the same time you can add on a little more to it? (must use your own judgement on this)

Crossing training....can only make you better...just like a mix plate of foods- more choices to choose from!

How much to mix? .........everyone will have their own opinion on this...no right or wrong, just what your Instructor says? .........Aloha

 

[Flying Crane]

Not everyone can be successful in training more than one art. Nothing wrong with that. There are always sacrifices made, no matter how you choose.

If you train in only one art, you miss experiencing the variety that other arts would offer. You never know, one of these other arts just might speak to you in a way that your first art doesnt.

If you train in more than one art, you are spreading your effort and time more thinly, and may not ever reach the depth of understanding and skill that you might reach, if you focus on one.

In the Chinese arts, it is common for people to train in several arts. Often, people train in many arts when they are young, and eventually settle on one or two that they specialize in. Once they understand many arts, they are in a better position to choose one or two that work best for them. They may still teach several arts to give their students the most opportunity, but for themselves, they focus on their favorites.

 

[Wes Tasker]

I think training in mulitple arts is very context driven. If a student is having a hard time in one art, then they should stick with it. I believe in having a good foundation in one art before trying to tackle another one. Of course, there are some exceptions. It always reminds me of the old story of someone trying to catch two rabbits at once. It's best to catch one first and then chase the second one. As long as one stays true to one's goals in studying multiple arts - I don't see a problem. If you want to study other arts to add to your own, great. If you want to maintain the integrity of multiple arts, just make sure they don't start looking alike. As far as training time goes - I agree you may progress slower in each one. I study mulitple systems, and have just settled on a slower pace in each one. And I don't mind being mediocre in each. I've had some great opportunities to study these arts, and I think I just may be a martial arts addict anyway.......

-wes tasker

 

[bluemtn]

For me, I didn't feel that I wasn't getting what I was after in my original MA- no real feeling of fulfillment. I'm not in the arts to gain rank, although they can look pretty matched with what your wearing . Since the two arts I'm in are both relatively similar, I have no problems with doing them both. The reasons I have gone with another art, and still continue with the other, is kind of lengthy. The "new" one gives me more of what I'm looking for in self- defense as well as sharpens up other areas I was lacking in- like my forms, sparring, kicks, etc. Just my 2cents.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I value cross training in multiple styles because it gets me different points of view on how to do things. Everyone is different and everyone has their own way of doing things. Learning different arts is kind of like going to a buffet, you can pick the arts you want to learn to match what you want to work on. (*Qualifying that with the fact that you must have quality instructors.*)

My first style (7+ years trained in, currently still training in) is primarily based in various styles of Jujitsu, with most techniques designed for in close stand up grappling/escapes with some striking aspects.

I took up Tae Kwon Do to add the distance fighting. I later added some ground based jujitsu.

I took up Kenpo to add the continuous flowing attack to my repetoire, and wound up loving the logical approach Kenpo offers over just about everything else I've done.

Everywhere I've gone I've had quality instruction. But as was already said, the more you know, the more you know...and the more you realize there is always more to learn ;-).

 

[Ceicei]

My base art is American Kenpo (Ed Parker's). My second art is Danzan Ryu JuJitsu. I have been in EPAK for a long time and currently a brown belt. DZRJ is still new for me as a white belt.

Why did I take up the second art? Well, my husband works at nights, so I have not been able to go to my usual classes for several months. I do continue to take private lessons, although not as often as I would like. I took up DZRJ so I can continue to get a good physical workout as well as learn a martial art to supplement my Kenpo.

I have discovered I became better at Kenpo now because of JuJitsu. I look at Kenpo more closely and understand it better. Surprisedly, there are a lot of similarities, even though their emphasis/approaches are different. There are plenty of existing JuJitsu moves in Kenpo that I hadn't noticed until I took up DZRJ. The two arts blend together really well for me.

- Ceicei

 

[bMunky]

Well, for me, I crosstrain in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, WTF Tae Kwon Do, and Yang Tai Chi Chuan forms and some gigong. Everything I do is so different it's hard to get confused. My pivots in tae kwon do and jujitsu are the same and tae kwon do gives me a fight stance for jujitsu, so my jujitsu and tae kwon do training feels a LOT more complete then when I was just training in jujitsu, like during jujitsu combos I can now add strikes as I'm training in tae kwon do too. And then I have tai chi chuan on the weekends and thats just relaxing easy to remember can be done anytime I want type of thing. The ONLY problem I have with cross training is knowing the terms and phrases in the native languages. I'm in 3 art forms from 3 different countries who speak and write completely different, so I get confused, especially since we have to know a lot of phrases and terms in tae kwon do. But overall I perfer my training schedule now then to when I was just training in jujitsu, but it's all about style though, if your in hapkido or kempo those are really complete systems and I think cross training in other art forms might get you confused. But see what styles are around you see how they complimetn eachother and make sure it's a good schedule with some days off I train tuesdays and thrusdays in tae kwon do, fridays jujitsu, and saturdays tai chi, so I have sunday and monday to rest and wendsday to focus on college homework. And all my martial art classes are early so I have the rest of the day to chill, go to school hang out, dont want to over do it and that can get easy with cross training, I have friends who are in, aikido, judo, jujitsu, and wrestling all through out the week.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Beginning students should stay with one style until they have a firm grasp of what they are doing (BB) then if they want to explore other systems I feel it is ok.
OR
if they must cross train befor they get their BB they should train in something completly different from their original style ( shotokan and tai chi, goju and fma, etc.)

 

[still learning]

Hello, Today I feel a little different about cross training? (Use to think..not a good idea?)

My son has been training in Kempo for almost 8 years (since 5 yrs old).
Loves the training.

When he got to High school, he join the Judo and wrestling teams,(knowing nothing of each). Today each sport has help with each other.

For Kempo, his additional training in Judo and wrestling has improve his choice of things to use for self-defense. We do have take-downs in Kempo and he has improve alot in these areas. (more skillful today)

Crossing training is an excellant idea! Anytime you can add to your training....you are adding more choices to choose from.

Real fighing is NO RULES, anything goes,chaos....you must be ready for everything! ....why limit your knowledge?

Like building a mountain....you will need a foundation to start from...then keep adding more things(crossing training)....the bigger and better you will become......make your mountain grow!..............Aloha

 

[celtic_crippler]

I encourage students to test out and check other sources and our schools have an open door policy for anyone that wants to cross train with us. If someone knows something or can add something positive and productive to what I all ready know then that's an advantage for me and my students.

If it works...use it. It doesn't matter where the material comes from. That's also why people see similarities amongst different systems, styles, etc.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Dedicating time to one art will always impede your progress in another.
I would reccomend not doing multiple arts until you are atleast Shodan in your primary art, maybe even waiting until Nidan.
Then, find an art the complements your main style well.
Trying to mix arts that use different types of stances and foot work will be confusing. You go to one class and Sensei says "hold your feet like this" go to the next class and Sensei corrects that mistake saying "place your feet like that". One class is bend the back knee, the next class is keep the back knee straght. And it goes around and around, you always find yourself doing things that are right in one class but wrong in the other and driving both teachers a little batty . A high quality teacher will offer the same advice and reccomend that you choose one style to start with.
I know many that do not allow students to train in other arts due to the examples that I have shown here.
If you have been training for a while, ask your teacher if he thinks you are ready to cross train.