Question... and I'm sure you've heard this a million times...

[neoinarien]

Hello all,

How do you feel about the practicality of CMA in a "real world" fight for self defense? Stronger in CMA than TKD, etc?

I don't know much about CMA (basically I have just crashed my local book stores for a few days) but it seems that some folks feel that it is pretty weak from a practical standpoint as a self-defense art.

Thoughts?

 

[arnisador]

There's a lot of good CMA and a lot of bad CMA being taught. I've met Wing Chun and Preying Mantis practitioners that I dound very tough to deal with; but, my CMA experience is relatively limited.

What matters most if how the instructor trains it!

 

[terryl965]

It is more about the person than the Art sorry to say. You could be the best physical guy in the world and not know how to fight. Or you could be in the best Martial art in the world and still not known how to fight.

 

[7starmarc]

Hello all,

How do you feel about the practicality of CMA in a "real world" fight for self defense? Stronger in CMA than TKD, etc?

I don't know much about CMA (basically I have just crashed my local book stores for a few days) but it seems that some folks feel that it is pretty weak from a practical standpoint as a self-defense art.

Thoughts?

It depends on what you're looking at.

If, by CMA, you are referring to (performance) Wushu, I'd say that the forms and manuevers practiced are sufficiently far from pratical applications that they have much less bearing on a "real world" fight. The body control, conditioning, and general movement patterns would help, but to a limited fashion.

If you're referring to sport CMA such as Sanda taught for the ring, it probably has as much relevance as any other sport MA (e.g. MMA, tournament karate, etc.).

Combat Sanda, as in that trained in the Chinese army should be very effective in the "real world".

If you're talking about traditional CMA, your mileage will vary with the Sifu and student, but the potential for someone to be highly effective in the "real world" is very good. The techniques, applications, and principles are all there and time-tested.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Short answer: Hollywood/Hong Kong Cinema.

 

[pete]

Hello all,

How do you feel about the practicality of CMA in a "real world" fight for self defense? Stronger in CMA than TKD, etc?

I don't know much about CMA (basically I have just crashed my local book stores for a few days) but it seems that some folks feel that it is pretty weak from a practical standpoint as a self-defense art.

Thoughts?

my advise for you is to save the money from the bookstore and buy:
1. enough lumber, hardware, and concrete to build yourself a nice fort with a labyrinth of caves and bunkers;
2. stock up on peanut butter and other non-perishables
3. an AK47, rocket launchers, and grenades
4. A swiss army knife, one with scissors, nail file and corkscrew.
5. couple of bottles of mondavi (that corkscrew will come in handy)

that should keep you safe in the 'real world', no need for martial art.

 

[neoinarien]

So, barring pete's response it seems that the overall answer is:

Yes! CMA can be an entirely effective means of self defense, IF:

~Taught well
~Practiced well

Couldn't someone make the same claim of any MA? I apologize because I do not mean to be antagonistic. I want to believe that CMA, praying mantis, tiger, crane, etc, are all highly applicative. And I understand that you don't see these styles use in MMA, etc, because they broadly may not conform to MMA rules. I also understand that these are, generally, very old styles/practices.

But it doesn't make sense that because it's told, ergo, it must be good. There are plenty of philosophies and ideas that have withstood the test of time despite their many many faults in accomplishing exactly what they set out to do.

Coming from a heavy TKD background I lament that my dojang (in my opinion) focused too much on the external rather than the internal. But I am thankful for the kicking, hapkido, etc that I learned because they (and other techniques) have immediately direct and understandable application in a self-defense situation.

When I look at 'praying mantis', etc, with bent wrists, it does not strike me prima facie to be the best idea. It seems more built for show or for light sparring than winning fights against hardened thugs and criminals (I'm betting this is blatant ignorance and TKD bias).

Is there a much sparring in CMA?

Again, I apologize for the ignorance and the length of the post. I find Kung Fu to be very fascinating, but I've only seen it on the silver screen instead of in the ring/tournaments. Between lack of first hand knowledge, never having sparred against a Kung Fu practitioner, and the incredible breadth of hyperbole surrounding the art (hollywood, books, etc) I'm just trying to get the best feedback possible.

 

[Sukerkin]

If you're seeking reassurance that CMA's actually 'work', neoinarien, then that's a very broad church to cover.

However, from personal experience, I can tell you that Lau Gar Kung Fu certainly does function exceedingly well and kept me unsliced the one time I really needed it.

Terry's point made earlier is the one great truism of MA tho'. A person can be trained in almost any art and be an effective fighter - the big factor that determines just how effective they will be is them themselves rather than the art they train in.

Most of the 'style debates' are, ironically enough, rooted in the traditions of Kung Fu cinema where a central thread is is often of the nature of "Your Kung Fu sucks. Ours rocks!" :lol:.

 

[Flying Crane]

So, barring pete's response it seems that the overall answer is:

Yes! CMA can be an entirely effective means of self defense, IF:

~Taught well
~Practiced well

Couldn't someone make the same claim of any MA?

yup. that's the real answer right there.

I apologize because I do not mean to be antagonistic. I want to believe that CMA, praying mantis, tiger, crane, etc, are all highly applicative. And I understand that you don't see these styles use in MMA, etc, because they broadly may not conform to MMA rules. I also understand that these are, generally, very old styles/practices.

But it doesn't make sense that because it's told, ergo, it must be good. There are plenty of philosophies and ideas that have withstood the test of time despite their many many faults in accomplishing exactly what they set out to do.

Coming from a heavy TKD background I lament that my dojang (in my opinion) focused too much on the external rather than the internal. But I am thankful for the kicking, hapkido, etc that I learned because they (and other techniques) have immediately direct and understandable application in a self-defense situation.

When I look at 'praying mantis', etc, with bent wrists, it does not strike me prima facie to be the best idea. It seems more built for show or for light sparring than winning fights against hardened thugs and criminals (I'm betting this is blatant ignorance and TKD bias).

Is there a much sparring in CMA?

Again, I apologize for the ignorance and the length of the post. I find Kung Fu to be very fascinating, but I've only seen it on the silver screen instead of in the ring/tournaments. Between lack of first hand knowledge, never having sparred against a Kung Fu practitioner, and the incredible breadth of hyperbole surrounding the art (hollywood, books, etc) I'm just trying to get the best feedback possible.

unfortunately, this is something you will have to take on faith. You haven't trained it, it's impossible to try it all out first hand because there are too many styles, so you just have to accept someone's word for it, that yes, it works. That's life.

I haven't trained in Hapkido, but I trust that in the right hands, it works well. Neither have I studied aeronautics, but I trust that the airplane will fly when I get on board, because knowledgeable people tell me it will.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Is CMA practical?
YES!! and it can be down right nasty and brutal too!!

My teacher for Bagua loved to go for the head and sweep and control control control!! for Hsing yi a huge burst of energy and just break through someones defense.

The chinna techniques used in some styles would make a jujutsu person smile with envy at the difference methods of control.

I personally do not think books do enough justice to an art to judge it even the arts I practice I own books with the pictures and they do not tell the whole story.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Hello all,

How do you feel about the practicality of CMA in a "real world" fight for self defense? Stronger in CMA than TKD, etc?

I don't know much about CMA (basically I have just crashed my local book stores for a few days) but it seems that some folks feel that it is pretty weak from a practical standpoint as a self-defense art.

Thoughts?

Can't speak for all Chinese Martial Arts systems but I'll give you this sample http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1OU35lqI1k&feature=PlayList&p=0D9C160FF607ACA0&index=20 and let you decide whether Hung Ga has effective techniques. This is an item featuring Sifu Sharif Bey.

 

[Xue Sheng]

CMA taught as it should be AND trained as it should be is very effective.

CMA not taught properly and/or not trained properly is as effective as is to be expected based on that lack of training or understanding

 

[Steel Tiger]

From my own point of view I have found CMA very effective. In my case Bagua and Qinna.

But equally, I have known people who practice only the shape and not the essence of the art (that applies to arts other than CMA as well) and they were sad, sorry, and very deluded people who were going to get hurt. It's like Tae Bo and such things. They may be based on TKD and Karate, but if you try to defend yourself with it, you'll just get hurt.

As so many of the others have said it all comes down to the way the art is taught, trained, and approached.

 

[jks9199]

So, barring pete's response it seems that the overall answer is:

Yes! CMA can be an entirely effective means of self defense, IF:

~Taught well
~Practiced well

Couldn't someone make the same claim of any MA?

By Jove, I think he's got it!

The simple truth is that every style is useful for self defense, if taught and practiced with a realistic eye towards that purpose. Some styles may be more direct about it than others, or have a more current basis in reality -- but most martial arts started out as a means of self defense, often in times of war.

The sad part is that every style can also be a load of fantasy and useless dancing, if it's practiced that way.

It comes down on the student to train realistically, and expect and demand that they be instructed realistically -- if that's what you want.

I just wish that more commercial schools were more honest about what they teach... Many (NOT ALL!) teach watered down sports and dancing, not realistic and practical self defense principles -- but tell their students that they're learning to defend themselves.

I apologize because I do not mean to be antagonistic. I want to believe that CMA, praying mantis, tiger, crane, etc, are all highly applicative. And I understand that you don't see these styles use in MMA, etc, because they broadly may not conform to MMA rules. I also understand that these are, generally, very old styles/practices.

But it doesn't make sense that because it's told, ergo, it must be good. There are plenty of philosophies and ideas that have withstood the test of time despite their many many faults in accomplishing exactly what they set out to do.

Coming from a heavy TKD background I lament that my dojang (in my opinion) focused too much on the external rather than the internal. But I am thankful for the kicking, hapkido, etc that I learned because they (and other techniques) have immediately direct and understandable application in a self-defense situation.

When I look at 'praying mantis', etc, with bent wrists, it does not strike me prima facie to be the best idea. It seems more built for show or for light sparring than winning fights against hardened thugs and criminals (I'm betting this is blatant ignorance and TKD bias).

Is there a much sparring in CMA?

Again, I apologize for the ignorance and the length of the post. I find Kung Fu to be very fascinating, but I've only seen it on the silver screen instead of in the ring/tournaments. Between lack of first hand knowledge, never having sparred against a Kung Fu practitioner, and the incredible breadth of hyperbole surrounding the art (hollywood, books, etc) I'm just trying to get the best feedback possible.

Many of the applications of Chinese martial arts are only apparent on long practice. They are often not taught as a "30 days/30 ways to kill" method of self defense, and have actually deliberately concealed the functional aspects unless the student earned the right to learn them.

Sparring is not the ultimate test of the effectiveness of a martial art; it's only ONE means of practicing the techniques and principles with a partner. Some very effective styles do very little (or no) "sparring" as such. Other styles do lots of sparring, but it's so oriented on the rules for a sporting event that there's no relevance to real world self defense.

 

[kidswarrior]

Don't know if it's been a million times, but sure seems like it.

Without getting too worked up over this version of the grade school argument, My dad can beat up your dad, here are a few places you might start. Feel free to use the search button to find the many more on MT: here here here

 

[kidswarrior]

Don't know if it's been a million times, but sure seems like it.

Without getting too worked up over this version of the grade school argument, My dad can beat up your dad, here are a few places you might start. Feel free to use the search button to find the many more on MT: here here here

 

[7starmarc]

When I look at 'praying mantis', etc, with bent wrists, it does not strike me prima facie to be the best idea. It seems more built for show or for light sparring than winning fights against hardened thugs and criminals (I'm betting this is blatant ignorance and TKD bias).

Not to make this a post about Mantis, but I think it goes to general impressions about some CMA styles as well.

The Mantis hook -- that hand posture which is immediately recognizable -- is seen in forms and technique practice. True, it also occupies two of our 12 key principles, but Mantis is far more than the hook. The majority of the time, strikes involve the much more classic fist, knife hand, spear hand, kicks, elbows, etc. The hook has it's uses, but the judge the style on one component of it is pretty dangerous.

The hook is incorporated in defense, as well as some attacks (including pressure point and vital area strikes).

As to the effectiveness of Mantis, there are a number of (now) Sifus within our lineage who have claimed titles in "less restrictive" fighting tournaments in the 70's, particularly on the East coast. I don't have alot of details, but I have been told of some of these people. I'm sure other styles of CMA can claim similar "proof of effectiveness".

Don't be mislead by the "characteristic" poses or hand positions of some CMA stlyes. Most use every strike you've heard of to some degree, and some that you haven't.

 

[HG1]

**EDIT***
How do you feel about the practicality of CMA in a "real world" fight for self defense? Stronger in CMA than TKD, etc?

I don't know much about CMA (basically I have just crashed my local book stores for a few days) but it seems that some folks feel that it is pretty weak from a practical standpoint as a self-defense art. Thoughts?

You will not learn anything of great value about CMA's from a book. Go take the next step & seek out different schools. Ask the Sifu or senior students questions about self defense for a more accurate answer. Good schools will have no problem demonstrating some effective basic techniques.

 

[HG1]

**EDIT**When I look at 'praying mantis', etc, with bent wrists, it does not strike me prima facie to be the best idea. It seems more built for show or for light sparring than winning fights against hardened thugs and criminals (I'm betting this is blatant ignorance and TKD bias).

That bent wrist is something Praying Mantis specializes in, one of many weapons in their arsenal. Other CMA's use something similar & I can tell from experience it is a painful blow. Here's aother opiton to think about, the coiled energy of that bent wrist released into a conditioned palm strike.

 

[neoinarien]

Thanks for the clarification re. hand hook!