Question about the Godai

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

It is clear that you are uncomfortable with some things about Hatsumi and the Bujinkan, because you interpreted simple descriptions of them as belittling insults. Your discomfort with yamabushi magic and the spirits of dead samurai being a part of recent Bujinkan stories is really not my problem, and you appear to have more of a problem with it than I do.

I said, Hatsumi once "allowed" an American to become the next Soke. Hint hint.

And guess what? My current teacher has claimed to be a reincarnation of Takamatsu.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Really, you need to understand that your lack of knowledge and trying to pass off inaccuracies is what is getting people to respond to you. If you cannot read between the lines basically what Don, Techno, and everybody else is saying is that you do not know what you are talking about.

Don is just trying to refute and show you where your inaccuracies are that is all.

If you do some serious research and actually train in this art then maybe we would be willing to listen to what you are saying. However, you seem bent on portraying something as it simply is not nor ever was. Good luck in your training and hopefully if you are really interested in the Bujinkan you will find a qualified Sensei to train under.

 

[Cryozombie]

Which source would that be? They're supposed to have nothing to do with Ninpo, remember?

Well, lets see... since I am not a Genbukan student I cant answer that for you, perhaps you should ask the Genbukan where it came from.

They could have pulled the references from religious texts, a poem (as you suggested) or you could be making the whole thing up, since you seem totaly clueless as to the facts and refuse to listen to them. For all I know, since you have no real knowlage of the Bujinkan, you could have none of the Genbukan either, and just pulled that reference out of your *** to play like you are an authority figure.

 

[eyebeams]

Well, lets see... since I am not a Genbukan student I cant answer that for you, perhaps you should ask the Genbukan where it came from.

That's the plan.

They could have pulled the references from religious texts, a poem (as you suggested) or you could be making the whole thing up, since you seem totaly clueless as to the facts and refuse to listen to them. For all I know, since you have no real knowlage of the Bujinkan, you could have none of the Genbukan either, and just pulled that reference out of your *** to play like you are an authority figure.

http://www.genbukan.org/Amatsu_Tatara_Martial_Art_and_/Ninja_Seishin/ninja_seishin.html

This is interesting:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boyden.wilson/amatsu_background.htm

 

[Cryozombie]

That's the plan.



http://www.genbukan.org/Amatsu_Tatara_Martial_Art_and_/Ninja_Seishin/ninja_seishin.html

This is interesting:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boyden.wilson/amatsu_background.htm

So... you are taking a poem which mentions 5 elements from a non bujinkan site, and a Healing site which references "Godai" but not the elements in relation to Godai... and trying to justify that the godai is the 5 elements IN THE BUJINKAN.

Oh, I see how that works... Hey look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38864&page=3

Look at that! Two sites on the internet, one referencing Hitler, and One referencing Eyebeams.

THEREFORE, EYEBEAMS IS HITLER!

Ahem. Try again, pal.

 

[eyebeams]

So... you are taking a poem which mentions 5 elements from a non bujinkan site, and a Healing site which references "Godai" but not the elements in relation to Godai... and trying to justify that the godai is the 5 elements IN THE BUJINKAN.

I merely find its use interesting in the context of a healing system headed by Hatsumi. Whos' reading between the lines now?

 

[Cryozombie]

I merely find its use interesting in the context of a healing system headed by Hatsumi. Whos' reading between the lines now?

Your posts contain more misdirection than an Episode of Criss Angel.

 

[Don Roley]

That makes perfect sense, when it's the remnant of customs that were suppressed for fairly naked political reasons.

Oh for Cuthulu's sake! You don't still believe in that whole ninja- as- oppressed- minority crud, do you?

Do some research, find out the truth and stop trying to be right. Maybe then you will learn something.

 

[eyebeams]

Oh for Cuthulu's sake! You don't still believe in that whole ninja- as- oppressed- minority crud, do you?

Do some research, find out the truth and stop trying to be right. Maybe then you will learn something.

I'm not talking about anything in the distant past.

 

[Kreth]

*flips through Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki*
Hrm, no Godai here... next question.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Once again Kreth that is a great point! Eyebeams why not try moving onto some other discussion. The people in the know constantly are trying to tell you what is reality concerning the Bujinkan. Since we have explained to you how it is, why not move on to another subject in an area you are familiar with.

 

[Don Roley]

I'm not talking about anything in the distant past.

Oh, so your comment about something being supressed for political reasons was a slap at Hatsumi.

Tell you what, go ask Major Manaka about this. He was there in the early days of training but has left the Bujinkan. So he would be able to tell you what I am and you can't accuse him of lying out of loyalty to Hatsumi to try to prove yourself correct.

 

[KageMusha]

Why did I even ask about the Godai? Oh yeah, I know why......

 

[eyebeams]

*flips through Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki*
Hrm, no Godai here... next question.

So now the Tenchijin is the tradition instead of the component ryuha?

 

[eyebeams]

Oh, so your comment about something being supressed for political reasons was a slap at Hatsumi.

You should know nemawashi is more involved than that and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the person running the show.

Tell you what, go ask Major Manaka about this. He was there in the early days of training but has left the Bujinkan. So he would be able to tell you what I am and you can't accuse him of lying out of loyalty to Hatsumi to try to prove yourself correct.

Why can't I ask Shoto Tanemura?

 

[Don Roley]

So now the Tenchijin is the tradition instead of the component ryuha?

No, I don't think you understand what it is.

It was a curriculum put together in the early days of the Bujinkan to serve as a platform as to what to teach.

Again, it was put together a good long time ago so if the Godai as a way of doing things in the Bujinkan is not in it, you can't say that it was there and later dropped by Hatsumi as part of some conspiracy.

 

[Don Roley]

You should know nemawashi is more involved than that and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the person running the show.

You are sounding more and more like those kooky conspiracy theorists with every post.

And all because you don't want to admit you were wrong.

How sad.

But if you start to listen instead of insult and posture, I am sure many of us will still be willing to help you out of your ignorance.

 

[eyebeams]

No, I don't think you understand what it is.

It was a curriculum put together in the early days of the Bujinkan to serve as a platform as to what to teach.

Again, it was put together a good long time ago so if the Godai as a way of doing things in the Bujinkan is not in it, you can't say that it was there and later dropped by Hatsumi as part of some conspiracy.

It depends on what you mean by "godai." I have never argued that Hayes' particular godai existed before Hayes.

But whaddaya think of this?

Much of what Soke was saying drew from Buddhism, which none of the translators (including myself) knew anything about. Of note was the mention of the "Rokudai." In addition to the conventionally known "Godai" (Chi, Ka, Sui, Fu, Ku) there is a sixth (Shiki), which refers to "Consciousness." Soke said that Musashi's focus only on the five rings fell short of the truth. Shiki is an important aspect of the Buddhist tradition and played a frequent role in Soke's discussions throughout my time there.

 

[Kizaru]

I am still new to the Bujinkan with just under a year of training, but I am very curious of how other dojos present and train the Godai...

Godai (五大） : "Five Greats". A belief system from Tendai sect Buddhism using five elements as a fundamental structure to describe relationships between the physical reality and "emotional" reality. (Tendai sect Buddhism is an esoteric form of Buddhism found in Japan).

Gogyo (五&#34892: "Five Lines", "Five Ways" et al. Originally a system of describing the physical world developed by Chinese Taoists. Later imported to Japan through Feng Shui and adapted as an ordering or numbering system.

Gogyo no Kata (五行之&#22411: In the Bujinkan, the Gogyo no kata was brought into the Tenchijin ryaku no Maki from Gyokko ryu by Hatsumi sensei. Basicly, its just five fundamental kata to teach smooth movement, proper striking, etc. There is no relation to an "elemental feeling" for each drill.

Godai no kata: As far as I know, the Godai kata were developed by Stephen Hayes, and are taught within his Toshindo system. The physical movements came from kata Stephen Hayes learned from Hatsumi sensei.

The movements of the Gogyo no Kata and the Godai are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The purpose behind the motions themselves are different as well. In the past year I've had quite a few people ask me what the difference between the Gogyo no Kata and the Godai are; I think because the names sound so similar, and the fact that thet both use "Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space" (even though they are used in different ways)there has been some confusion.

 

[Kizaru]

But whaddaya think of this?

Much of what Soke was saying drew from Buddhism, which none of the translators (including myself) knew anything about. Of note was the mention of the "Rokudai." In addition to the conventionally known "Godai" (Chi, Ka, Sui, Fu, Ku) there is a sixth (Shiki), which refers to "Consciousness."

Godai is a concept from Tendai sect Buddhism.

Rokkudai is a concept from Shingon sect Buddhism.

Japanese martial arts were influenced by the religious influences around them the same way that martial arts in other cultures were influenced by the religions around them. The quote you are refering to was drawing on Buddhist concepts, not necessarily concepts that are organic to the Bujinkan. As far as I know, there is no "godai" concept organic to the ryu ha in the Bujinkan.

If you are interested in learning more about Stephen Hayes' "Godai no kata", I suggest you contact someone in his Toshindo organization.

If you are interested in learning more about the "Godai" concepts in Buddhism, I suggest you contact a Tendai sect priest.

If you are interested in getting some soul, I suggest you look here:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/06/shoesouls.html