Question about knife hands

[Deleted member 39746]

Ok, slightly misleading but my original and sole thought line needs some padding out but here we go anyway.


I was thinking about the Defendu knife hands and was curious why they were selected as the main attack and what the reasoning was. besides it needing to be easy to teach and learn and work due to the war. (referring to the army systems) Im aware one to the back of the neck wouldn't be pleasant, but if you missed the front would the impact on the nose/fore head cause any damage to your hand?

To add a little padding a comparison between his technique and the others would be nice. His being thumb is extended 90 degrees and you strike like a normal knife hand at 90 degree angles either down or forward.

Anyway was just thinking about it and it slightly intrigued me.

Addendum: apart from the kind of obvious, the lower surface area by a knife hand would probably lead to higher potential damage to the targets presented. Thats generally why you go for the neck and such with them.

 

[jobo]

have you signed up for a class yet ?

 

[Buka]

Knife hands....they always give me a hmmmmm moment. I teach them as part of a full curriculum, but I've never actually used one outside the dojo. Neither has anyone else I know.....which is a whole lot of Martial Arts guys - many of whom are from different styles and are also in protective services.

So....I don't know that if I was starting over I'd teach them again. I dunno'.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Knife hands....they always give me a hmmmmm moment. I teach them as part of a full curriculum, but I've never actually used one outside the dojo. Neither has anyone else I know.....which is a whole lot of Martial Arts guys - many of whom are from different styles and are also in protective services.

So....I don't know that if I was starting over I'd teach them again. I dunno'.

I have some of those same thoughts. I teach them, because I like the control they require. I can't think of any time I've ever used them in sparring, and they only show up at the heavy bag if I ask them to.

But I still like training them. I include them in the "esoteric" category in my curriculum. I don't think there's much direct application, but there are times when I find my hand using that shape, and it seems to help. And they're kinda cool, too.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Can you explain what you mean by knife hand? I am not familiar with Defendu, but casual googling seems to be more in the way of chops and strikes with hand edges rather than a thrusting motion.

Defendu and jiujitsu - Guard Position - Self Defense Guides

We use both. I haven't had occasion to need a knife hand (thrust) strike, but open hand yes. Shuto, haito, shotae, etc.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Belay segment about the breaking bones segment, put thought into it and its going to mess your hand up just the same.

Knife hands....they always give me a hmmmmm moment. I teach them as part of a full curriculum, but I've never actually used one outside the dojo. Neither has anyone else I know.....which is a whole lot of Martial Arts guys - many of whom are from different styles and are also in protective services.

So....I don't know that if I was starting over I'd teach them again. I dunno'.

I have hit someone in a play fight across the chest with one which apprantly hurt a bit. More just curious why it was enthissied in his teaching to the military.

they seem like they work when they work and dont when they dont. Like a good thwack in the neck isnt going to be nice.

Can you explain what you mean by knife hand? I am not familiar with Defendu, but casual googling seems to be more in the way of chops and strikes with hand edges rather than a thrusting motion.

Defendu and jiujitsu - Guard Position - Self Defense Guides

We use both. I haven't had occasion to need a knife hand (thrust) strike, but open hand yes. Shuto, haito, shotae, etc.

Picture i just found, that is what i mean by a knife hand the chopping motion.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Picture i just found, that is what i mean by a knife hand the chopping motion.

OK, thanks. That's kind of what I thought you meant. Beg pardon, but in my style, we call that a chop (shuto) and not a knife hand (nukite). Just wanted to be sure I understood.

Yes, we practice shuto strikes. I consider them useful and effective when used well and in the right context. It's the traditional karate chop if you will.

In my style, we do keep the thumb tucked rather than let it stick out. Theory is that the extended thumb can be grabbed. If you manage not to get yours grabbed, I guess it's ok, but I tuck mine in.

Is there some objection to the shuto strike?

 

[Danny T]

Aren't Defendu empty hand attacks based upon their knife attacks? If so then the empty attacks would be like those as having a knife in the hand. Open the hand and there is the knife hand.

 

[JR 137]

OK, thanks. That's kind of what I thought you meant. Beg pardon, but in my style, we call that a chop (shuto) and not a knife hand (nukite). Just wanted to be sure I understood.

Yes, we practice shuto strikes. I consider them useful and effective when used well and in the right context. It's the traditional karate chop if you will.

In my style, we do keep the thumb tucked rather than let it stick out. Theory is that the extended thumb can be grabbed. If you manage not to get yours grabbed, I guess it's ok, but I tuck mine in.

Is there some objection to the shuto strike?

Interesting use of vocabulary.

Your “chop” is our knife hand - shuto
Your “knife hand” is our spear hand - nukite

We use the Japanese terms. Knife hand and spear hand are the English terms we use alongside the Japanese terms when teaching beginners, ie during kihon/line drills my teacher will say a combo in Japanese then repeat it in English while demonstrating it. He doesn’t use the English terms with the intermediate level and up students, unless it’s something new to them.

 

[JR 137]

My friends (non-MAist) and I used to run around and knife hand each other in the throat. Remember the Ginsu knife infomercials? We called our chop to the throat the Ginsu. It was a lot of fun. Especially while someone was drinking their beer. We had a lot of different “fighting moves” we hit each other with that had some messed up names. You come up with some crazy sh!t while drinking excessively.

Other than the Ginsu amongst friends, I’ve never used it nor thought of using it during a fight or sparring.

 

[frank raud]

Ok, slightly misleading but my original and sole thought line needs some padding out but here we go anyway.


I was thinking about the Defendu knife hands and was curious why they were selected as the main attack and what the reasoning was.

An obvious reason would be that the knife hand strikes are from the Oriental arts that Fairbairn trained in. The knife hand strike is in judo,in jiu jitsu (whether it was Shin no shindo ryu or Tenshin ryu Fairbairn trained in is a matter of debate) and in Chinese boxing(putatively Bagua).

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Aren't Defendu empty hand attacks based upon their knife attacks? If so then the empty attacks would be like those as having a knife in the hand. Open the hand and there is the knife hand.

That could be a reason. I believe some more contemporary systems prefer the hammer fist given you can hit just around the same places, put your hand at less risk than doing so and deliver a similar if not better impact. Hammer fist also mimics hitting someone with the bottom of a stick if you have a stick in your hand.

(obviously there wasn't as much martial arts spread around in that period than today and you have to make do with what you have and can trust)

 

[frank raud]

Aren't Defendu empty hand attacks based upon their knife attacks? If so then the empty attacks would be like those as having a knife in the hand. Open the hand and there is the knife hand.

No.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

A side note to the purpose of a knife hand. That i have been taught. Not using it as a strike directly, but almost as a throw. Instead of requiring a grip, you get the 'strike' in and your hand is already positioned and with appropriate momentum to conduct a number of throws. The person who taught me that, and his students, have succesfully done this to me on a pretty regular basis in sparring.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That could be a reason. I believe some more contemporary systems prefer the hammer fist given you can hit just around the same places, put your hand at less risk than doing so and deliver a similar if not better impact. Hammer fist also mimics hitting someone with the bottom of a stick if you have a stick in your hand.

(obviously there wasn't as much martial arts spread around in that period than today and you have to make do with what you have and can trust)

The hammer fist is used in a very different manner. Not really interchangeable in my experience.

 

[drop bear]

The hammer fist is used in a very different manner. Not really interchangeable in my experience.

Hammer fist, framing and clinching a all expressions of the judo chop concept.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A side note to the purpose of a knife hand. That i have been taught. Not using it as a strike directly, but almost as a throw. Instead of requiring a grip, you get the 'strike' in and your hand is already positioned and with appropriate momentum to conduct a number of throws. The person who taught me that, and his students, have succesfully done this to me on a pretty regular basis in sparring.

The shuto (I'll call it that, since I can't bring myself to call it a knife hand) has a lot of applications, and you've described one of them very nicely. When the hand is open, it can grab. While it is not hard to open the hand, when it's already open, it works a tad faster and more naturally. A palm-down shuto strike to the side of the neck, for example, lends itself to grasping the back of the attacker's head and pulling it down immediately after delivering the strike. Just one of many applications of the open hand.

The open hand is also available when a shuto is intercepted, blocked, or the attacker moves out of advantageous application of the strike, so one technique can blend seamlessly into another as the situation changes.

Personally, I'm a fan of the open hand upper body block which draws the attacker slightly in towards you, followed immediately by launching the blocking hand as a shuto attack to the neck, following the arc of their arm they just threw at you. Assuming they kept their eyes on their intended target, their face is nicely lined up to take that soft-tissue palm up shuto to the side of the neck with maximum turning force from my hips.

 

[skribs]

For me, whether to use a knife-hand or an open-hand is largely dependent on my target. My preferred strike based on target:

• Face - palm strike or backfist
• Throat - spearhand or chop
• Side of Neck - chop
• Jaw - hook punch or uppercut
• Cheek - hammerfist or backfist
• Chest - reverse punch
• Belly - underpunch
• Groin - backfist or hammerfist

It depends on whether or not my fingers will get in the way, and whether I want a ball or a blade to hit the target.

 

[frank raud]

In my style, we do keep the thumb tucked rather than let it stick out. Theory is that the extended thumb can be grabbed. If you manage not to get yours grabbed, I guess it's ok, but I tuck mine in.

Bill, I have often heard this explanation, but am curious. How often does someone grab, or attempt to grab, your shuto?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, I have often heard this explanation, but am curious. How often does someone grab, or attempt to grab, your shuto?

I have never had someone grab my thumb, but then again, I don't stick mine out, as I've been trained to keep it tucked in. So I can't say how likely it is that someone would or could grab it.

To be honest, I am more concerned that I'd jam it when striking by catching it on clothes or what-have-you. Seems best to just keep it out of the way. I won't claim I have any valuable knowledge one way or another; this is just what I do.