Question about Independents...

[Cruentus]

I don't study Ninjitsu, but I pay attention to it, a little.

I have heard talk of "indies" and (of course) Bujinkan. Now, I know that Bujinkan is run by Hatsumi, and can trace it's lineage to its clan something like 38 generations. This sounds pretty legit to me.

But what of the legitimacy of the "indies"? I know that we are looking at a broad group of independents, but what do these different groups claim? Are they claiming to be an offshoot of Bujinkan, our do they claim their own lineage? How do we know which ones are legit, and which are not?

Thanks in advance!
:asian:

 

[Bujingodai]

That is a very broad question, for which you will get many answers. The hardliner will say that there is no legitamicy no matter what unless kan related. Some hardliners would also say that the Kan is not legit as well.
Unfortuatly alot of the indies out there have big mouths and bigger imaginations. Thus it creates the stereotype we are all movie wanna be's
I would state that the majority of the indie are in fact ex pat Bujinkan or one of the other Kans. I speak from both angles due to the fact I am an indie for the most part of my training, however still hold membership and rank in the Bujinkan.
The politics in any org can get to be too much for some. Limitations to a degree etc etc.
Many indies do claim a huge lineage, which I suppose in some cases can be proved eventually, some cases its crap. Much easier to just say you train in the spirit of the art than suffer public humilation when you are found to be full of it.

I train with lots of independent schools. I make a point to meet them and see what they are about and place my opinion after that. There have been a few that I will not go that far, because IMO they are that far out.

Is there any school in particular you wish to discuss.

 

[Cruentus]

The only school I really know of is Bujinkan.

What other "kans" are there that are legitimate?

 

[Bujingodai]

There is the Bujinkan, Genbukan, and the Jinenkan. These are the 3 traditonally accepted schools.

 

[Cruentus]

There is the Bujinkan, Genbukan, and the Jinenkan. These are the 3 traditonally accepted schools.

Cool. I only know a little about the Bujinkan. That's Hatsumi's lineage, correct?

Tell me more about Genbukan and Jinenkan. Who is their current Grandmaster (if the have one), and what is their lineage?

It interests me to learn, thank you! :asian:

 

[Bujingodai]

The Genbukan is headed by Shoto Tanumuera (sp) and the Jinenkan by Unsui Manaka. These gentlemen were senior students of Hatsumi and broke off. I am no authority of these men. My experience was with the Booj. Don Roley may be able to answer more detailed questions, Jay Bell as well.

 

[Cruentus]

The Genbukan is headed by Shoto Tanumuera (sp) and the Jinenkan by Unsui Manaka. These gentlemen were senior students of Hatsumi and broke off. I am no authority of these men. My experience was with the Booj. Don Roley may be able to answer more detailed questions, Jay Bell as well.

Alright.

So these two schools all realy come from the same lineage, they just broke off from Hatsumi.

Could anyone tell me why they broke off?

So, people who believe that only the Kans are legit are all following one lineage.

A complete purist would believe that Bujinkan is the ONLY lineage.

Most Indies are also from that lineage, because they broke off from the Bujinkan or one of the other Kans.

So far, all within the same family tree. This trend seems very familiar so far in the arts I am in.

So, are there any other legitimate Indies who claim a different lineage then Bujinkan?

Also, what are some of the political reasons for breaking away from the Bujinkan?

Anyone with knowledge can feel free to step in and answer.
Thanks in advance; I am learning alot.
:asian:

btw...I am very interested for two reasons. One, Ninjitsu has always interested me, even though I have not had the chance to train in it. Two, with the Filipino arts I study, we can only go back for the past century or so. I am a 1st generation student under the founder of Modern Arnis, and a second generation student in Balintawak Eskrima (Anciong Bacon - founder, GM Ted Buot (my teacher), then me). The Bujinkan is on its 38th generation, or something like that? Anyways, by observing the state of Bujinkan, it may help me to predict what the state of my FMA will be in many generations down the line.

Which brings me to another question: How was "grandmastership" passed down through the ages? Was a successor picked by the grandmaster before passing away, or was it chosen by peers, or what have you?

 

[Bujingodai]

I am not an authority, but the only one answering right now.
There are many, many stories as to why Tanemeura and Hatsumi split. Only they know for sure. As for Manaka, he once told me that you had to walk like a man, he has no ill feeling for Hatsumi.

Yes a purist would believe the Kans are the only true source. There are many opinions to that on either side though. Hatsumi has the most traceable lineage, disputably of course the one who wins the war writes the history books. Or has the most followers. Again that is just a point of arguement and not nessecarily mine.

Yes I would state that most indies out there, are break offs. Unless a self created system, hybrid or a history that is not well known.
As for their claim to be legit, that is up to the student to decide when they see the class. Really what is important to them.

I am an indie. I am also a current Bujinkan member. So I follow the trend with an open mind. This annoys some, but to be honest I think that comes from seeing idiots who claim mysterious abilities and no verifiable training.

I do run an independent board. There are all sorts of flavours there. Some that you wouldn't agree with some you would. No flames there, pretty good dicsussion. If you interested in getting the other schools opinions.
http://unv.aimoo.com
Now it is secure, so you'd have to post and ask for access.

 

[r.severe]

Paul asked, "Which brings me to another question: How was "grandmastership" passed down through the ages? Was a successor picked by the grandmaster before passing away, or was it chosen by peers, or what have you?"

Paul, the soke is passed to another person by the current soke of a system of methodology. If the soke dies the system goes to all the remaining highest ranked members of the system and they have to fight over it or vote on a leader of the system.
Being a soke is really not that important or really doesn't mean much unless you have the knowledge of the system you claim to be the soke of.
When the system is first developed there is really not a soke. It is a founder.
This means it is not a ryu. A ryu is a flow.. from one person to another. A ryu comes alibve when another person passes it to another person and so on.
To make claim you are a soke that has a system or ryu that has not been passed to you is strange and really doesn't mean much. And the meaning of ryu is Japanese. If you are not Japanese then the usage of Japanese id strnage. This is of course if the ranking and license was not passed to you by a guide of a Japanese ryu.
I would guess you can use soke to say you are the head of the group or family if you wish.
I hope this helps..

As for students leaving the teacher.
This is the most important point of training.
To be a beginner..
A follower...
To understand..
Become mindful..
Be strong..
Learn to walk and talk..
Feel freedom..
Free yourself..
Walk on..

I would say this is the most wonderful thing to see as a teacher and feeling as a student of warrior arts..
It doesn't mean anything harsh or hateful to the ones you once trained with..

In time many walk back into the guides - teachers life.. in and out from time.. to time..

Looking into the Genbukan... Tanamura sensei has done far more on his own than he could have done for the students of bujutsu - ninjutsu if he had stayed with Hatsumi sensei.
The same goes for Manaka sensei.

Being free you can express yourself without being watched or controlled...

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Shogun]

Being free you can express yourself without being watched or controlled...

This is very important. The Bujinkan will reduce rank, suspend, or ban members they dont see fit to train, teach, etc. Although Bujinkan tends to be the most flexible of the world Orgs. they still have strict guidelines. I believe that as long as the Instructor/Headmaster (of the Indy) was legitamately trained, by Hatsumi or another Hereditary, they deserve respect. as Fumio Demura says, "if you have good foundations and basics, you will be successful in whatever you do".
However, some Indy's that I have seen got a Nidan in Shorei ryu Karate, watched some Bujinkan videos, then say they know Ninjutsu. These people should be sued or something.
Another thing I'd like to point out is the Bujinkan's Commercial image, and their real image. Bujinkan training seems to be geared toward becoming a better individual, however, stated in Stephen Turnbull's Book, NINJA, the training of Ninjutsu is one of extreme levels of Violence, rape, and Assassination. The true story of Ninjutsu is very Dark.

 

[Silent Nightfall]

Shogun, I believe you mean that Mr. Turnbull's story is very dark. It is also not exactly historically accurate; however, I will wait for those with more knowledge than myself to post on such a topic. I'm sure Mr. Roley is lurking around here somewhere. :asian:

 

[gozanryu]

the training of Ninjutsu is one of extreme levels of Violence, rape, and Assassination. The true story of Ninjutsu is very Dark.

Uh, with all due respect Mr. Shogun. Please take some time to get some facts. You are paraphrasing fiction as fact here. Go to amazon, by Hatsumi Sensei's books. (Don, help him out with a short bibliography here please) do some reading, talk to some practitioners. ANd for the sake of discussion, most historic espionage, intelligence, and infiltration operations are/were , dark.

 

[Shogun]

Go to amazon, by Hatsumi Sensei's books.

I have all of Hatsumi's books.

You are paraphrasing fiction as fact here.

Turbull's books are fact, with forewards by Hatsumi Soke

talk to some practitioners

I am a Bujinkan Ninjutsu practitioner, and Shinto practitoner

ANd for the sake of discussion, most historic espionage, intelligence, and infiltration operations are/were , dark.

I was refering to the difference between original use of Ninjutsu, and today's image

 

[Shogun]

And what I meant is that the Original methods were Violent, etc.I sometimes have a problem with words (lol)
I am not trying to say that today's training method is violent, but it used to be. also, some of the Indy organizations might have broke off to stick to the original methods.
I was trying to get across the Huge transformation from Killing to Kindliness. As a bujinkan ninjutsu practitioner, I have found that the Methods could easily kill, but this is never emphasized.

 

[Silent Nightfall]

I believe that you are missing our point, Shogun. You see, Ninjutsu was never used to constantly kill and maim others. The training has always been about doing what was necessary to survive. The arts were never designed for people who went out and began randomly killing others. Kill only when necessary, ne? Ninja were not assassins and killing machines. You should try reading Don's article on the Koga Ryu Ninja if you haven't already. That is historically accurate. This whole "Ninja were once dark, evil assassins but now are protectors of the people" thing is bogus.

 

[r.severe]

***I would like to make a few points on what is being said.***

“The Bujinkan will reduce rank, suspend, or ban members they dont see fit to train, teach, etc.”

***I don’t feel this is true or have I heard of anyone being reduced in rank or asked not to train in the Bujinkan by anyone I know. The Bujinkan is more or less like a boat on a river.. it goes where the flow takes it. Most of the time it is headed nowhere and if so in many different directions. Never the less the ranking in the Bujinkan ads up to “0” in my experience unless you can go to the post with your own personal knowledge of the ryuha Hatsumi sensei teaches, skills in fighting (not dojo matches or stop and go training), and ability to demo the skills of the ryuha. History means nothing because anyone can read a book or watch a tape. Most of what you will hear from more or less many of the forum dragons is like that. Nothing really of value.***

“Although Bujinkan tends to be the most flexible of the world Orgs. they still have strict guidelines. I believe that as long as the Instructor/Headmaster (of the Indy) was legitamately trained, by Hatsumi or another Hereditary, they deserve respect.”

***I would have to disagree with you. No one is given respect by others by hear say, respect is earned by those who have first hand knowledge or experience with the person in question. Just because someone trains with the guy who has a high ranking or has given himself a title means nothing in my opinion. This is like testing over the phone for rank. Or writing things about someone you don’t even know personally.***

”However, some Indy's that I have seen got a Nidan in Shorei ryu Karate, watched some Bujinkan videos, then say they know Ninjutsu. These people should be sued or something.”

***I would have to say that is a good idea but it is not going to happen. People who train in systems and ad a few things here and there of a system and call it the system they have no first hand knowledge of are simple fools. Fooling no one but his or her self. Bujutsu is about honor and integrity.
You cannot just call an art you do “ninjutsu” for the sake of a name or a ego deal. There is only one system of ninjutsu that is known today (from my experience) and it is Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu.
If there is another I am not aware of then cool. So be it. But if not then why lie?***

”Another thing I'd like to point out is the Bujinkan's Commercial image, and their real image. Bujinkan training seems to be geared toward becoming a better individual,”

***I feel the Bujinkan is commercial as any other martial art or any other sport. It gives no more or no less than any other methodology. It is up to the student or trainee to make it special and of worth. The system or any system does not give you a better life or make you a better individual.***

“however, stated in Stephen Turnbull's Book, NINJA, the training of Ninjutsu is one of extreme levels of Violence, rape, and Assassination. The true story of Ninjutsu is very Dark.”

***I feel this “very dark” is taken out of context. With the other silly things I cannot say what ninjutsu does for everyone.***

”I was trying to get across the Huge transformation from Killing to Kindliness. As a bujinkan ninjutsu practitioner, I have found that the Methods could easily kill, but this is never emphasized.”

***I don’t feel the Bujinkan methods I have seen are for killing. Nor do I feel most of the members train for combative confrontations. I feel most train for enjoyment and games.
In my opinion I don’t feel you need the Bujinkan methods for killing. Any good-natured sporting system can do that for you. Why waste money and time on ninjutsu when other less time and money taking systems can give you killing intention and skills? A good strong soccer kick can down most attackers.
I personally do not find the Bujinkan methods are easily understood for killing or can be used as a killing system at all. Most of it is way out dated and useless.***

Thank you,

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Cruentus]

Hi, remember me...non-ninjitsu guy with all the questions?

I just wanted to step in for a second, here. There seems to be some dispute over whether or not ninjitsu has a "violent past" or not.

I am not a ninjitsu practitioner, so I am not about to argue one way or the other. But, I have been in martial arts for almost 20 years. Through my experience, most martial arts have a "dark" and violent past. This isn't a bad thing, really. The arts weren't the cause of violence, they were the effect. They were a product of violent times where society and laws were quite different then today. My Filipino arts, particularly Modern Arnis, are much less violent today then 20, 50 or even 100 years ago. To be specific, my Balintawak training is all for fighting (stick dueling), but my modern arnis is no longer just for self-defense by many who practice it. People do it for sport, personal achievement and enlightenment, health, and so on. However, even just 50 years ago, there were people who liked to see blood in the PI. There wasn't a "death match" on every corner like many confused students of the FMA want you to believe, but people did duel with sticks and other such weapons, and people often got hurt. And, there were a few deaths. This is all in very recent history (post WWII). And, there were a few people who would pack together, and pillige towns, etc. And, there were those who packed together to protect the towns. This is all in recent history as well (last 100 years or so). Before that, history of the Filipino culture is sparse because it was dominated by the Spanish, and prior to that there wasn't much of a written history. But from evidence that we do have, things were just as violent (if not more) by todays standards over 100 years ago in the PI as well.

Sorry for the ramble, but my point is that we wouldn't have "martial arts" at all if there wasn't a neccesity in our human history to solve things through violence. The idea that people do martial arts ONLY for personal enlightenment is a modern idea, in my opinion.

So, the idea that ninjitsu has a "dark" or "violent" past doesn't seem far fetched to me, as by todays standards almost every art has a "dark and violent" past. My Filipino and Burmese arts have all been used to assasinate people as well. Yet, this doesn't mean that all practitioners of the arts were violent, horrible people either. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, I would think.

Anyways, I'll shut up now and I'll pay attention to what you guys are saying so I can learn a bit about the history of ninjitsu. I just wanted to get this point accrossed.
:asian:

 

[Jason-Michael Chambers]

An excellent reference site would be www.ninpo.org. It is maintained by a Genbukan Shihan but is still the best (my opinion) information source on the subject.

 

[Cruentus]

Thanks! :asian:

 

[Shogun]

The truth lies somewhere in the middle, I would think

.


This is very true.
By the way, I am not trying to push the fact that Ninjutsu used to be violent, or that it was used ONLY for killing, I am merely stating that today it would seem that it is geared ONLY for self development. To understand the present one must look to the past.
How can one expect to know the art as a whole, when they look only at certain parts. exploring every part of an art form, or combat method is the only way to understand it.
I am sure every one has discussed the difference between "do" and "jutsu" , Ninjutsu being the latter. It was developed for war, and still retains the namesake. thats all im saying.
Plus, who can really say they have an accurate history of Ninja. Thats like having an insight to the CIA, only its much older, dating back to 500 ad china or before.