Qi/Chi masters: why, when we talk about real fight, QI is useless?

mograph

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My teacher's philosophy on qigong was based on zhan zhuang practice: stand, avoid interfering, and let the body do what it needs to do.
 

mograph

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I've certainly experienced that zone you speak of, as though time falls away and the whole universe is working to support your technique effortlessly haha. Like a presence and flow that comes when you let go of internal resistance fully, and are deeply connected with the moment.

Have you read Csikszentmihalyi's Flow?
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi - Wikipedia

(pronounced "cheeks sent me high")
 

Xue Sheng

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I'm not sure why you're seeing it that way... maybe because you've seen it discussed that way. It is nothing but natural potential.

You are missing the point, it was an example to clarify, that is all. It is natural potential, but we all go on autopilot and our body only uses what it feels is necessary at the time. Proper training of the "internal" will get you to use the body in a more efficient way and to use more of it, especially when you are talking muscles and he fibers they are made up of
 

Xue Sheng

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I'll add, it may seem different to you. I was led off in the wrong direction from family violence, and by an instructor that wanted to use and develop my destructive force for his own purposes. Not everybody gets the positive training that's correct. I had to fix that in myself. So I had to understand some extemely basic structures of how the mind works. Might seem mystical to some, but it's not.

If you have deep-seated anger, you are offended by practically everything. What's mystical about that? I see it all over our society these days. I had to figure out how to fix that in myself. There's nothing mystical about that either. I figured it out and found peace. That's a natural process, and because I did that I learned how every aspect of that works. The training forced me to deal with it and I did.

Somewhere in this thread the terms projection and dark were used, that is where I got it, and I also said, if I'm wrong, I apologize. It is easy to misinterpret during a web discussion. And you are talking to someone who dealt with a lot of anger in his early 30s.
 

EdwardA

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Somewhere in this thread the terms projection and dark were used, that is where I got it, and I also said, if I'm wrong, I apologize. It is easy to misinterpret during a web discussion. And you are talking to someone who dealt with a lot of anger in his early 30s.

I find your input cautious and honest. That's a good thing. I appreciate it.

I do sometimes use terms like "dark". I spent time there. It's not scientific, but describes emotional and mental states.
 
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EdwardA

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I'll give an example of the result, of how I turned my destructive training into something more positive.

I was in a campus setting. I'm 140 Lbs. Three guys hogging the side walk. All three at 180 to 220 Lbs., and in good shape. At one of the sidewalk intersections, I jumped around them....didn't touch anybody, but they were offended and talking smack at me. I just keep walking. One of them ran up behind me and grabbed me by the shoulder. When I cross a certain level of threat, my vision goes dark. I can only describe it as looking deeply into a mirror (yes, I know this sounds mystical, but it's the only way I know to describe it. When this happens, I don't know what I'm doing and I only get glimpses of what happened afterward). As I swung around to my left, I grabbed him by the elbow. That changed the direction of movement to my left. As I turned to grab his elbow, I also started a double flying crescent....pair of kicks. The first crescent just intensified the movement toward the left with no contact. The 2nd crescent, instead of kicking him, I landed it on his hip and stepped up on him (while maintaining my center of gravity, because I had a hold of his elbow and he out-weighed me by 50 pounds). 15ft. later I pushed him to the ground. I didn't hit anybody, but those guys decided they didn't want any part of me. When he got up off the ground and ran over to his buddies, they were practically hanging all over each other in comfort, to get the heck away from me, in utter shock.

My description of my state of mind might sound mystical because I have no idea of how to scientifically describe how my training puts my mind into this subconscious state. I know how I trained, but describing it in any kind of scientific manner is difficult, of not impossible. At least for me, but it took a great deal of time and purpose to embed this into my subconscious.
 
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Xue Sheng

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I'll give an example of the result, of how I turned my destructive training into something more positive.

I was in a campus setting. I'm 140 Lbs. Three guys hogging the side walk. All three at 180 to 220 Lbs., and in good shape. At one of the sidewalk intersections, I jumped around them....didn't touch anybody, but they were offended and talking smack at me. I just keep walking. One of them ran up behind me and grabbed me by the shoulder. When I cross a certain level of threat, my vision goes dark. I can only describe it as looking deeply into a mirror (yes, I know this sounds mystical, but it's the only way I know to describe it. When this happens, I don't know what I'm doing and I only get glimpses of what happened afterward). As I swung around to my left, I grabbed him by the elbow. That changed the direction of movement to my left. As I turned to grab his elbow, I also started a double flying crescent....pair of kicks. The first crescent just intensified the movement toward the left with no contact. The 2nd crescent, instead of kicking him, I landed it on his hip and stepped up on him (while maintaining my center of gravity, because I had a hold of his elbow and he out-weighed me by 50 pounds). 15ft. later I pushed him to the ground. I didn't hit anybody, but those guys decided they didn't want any part of me. When he got up off the ground and ran over to his buddies, they were practically hanging all over each other in comfort, to get the heck away from me, in utter shock.

My description of my state of mind might sound mystical because I have no idea of how to scientifically describe how my training puts my mind into this subconscious state. I know how I trained, but describing it in any kind of scientific manner is difficult, of not impossible. At least for me, but it took a great deal of time and purpose to embed this into my subconscious.

Got in a fight, one night, I did not start, about 40 years ago, with three guys, they ended up by running from me as well. But frankly, what you are describing, has nothing to do with Qi or qigong, beyond the use ot the energy for the attack.

and again, nice taking to you
 

EdwardA

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Got in a fight, one night, I did not start, about 40 years ago, with three guys, they ended up by running from me as well. But frankly, what you are describing, has nothing to do with Qi or qigong, beyond the use ot the energy for the attack.

and again, nice taking to you

I can see the explanation as being somewhat vague, but I see high potential as being one thing, all....from structure including mind, emotion, body and spirit. All lined up in unison. Every aspect.
 

Fudo

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Dear Op,
The first thing to understand is about Qi is the meaning changes if another word is in front of it or after it. The best defination I think as a catch all for the different meanings and word order using Qi is energy, a very broad defination.
Cojak Hanzi Dictionary: Hanzi Character Search: 气
You can see how many everyday words using Qi in it.
The more supernatural and folklore side which is what a lot of people think Qi is in the west is just religious,superstitious, and folklore.
By defination someone being able to kick and punch like Muay Thai is using Qi specfically Qi Li.
 

EdwardA

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No I haven't, haven't heard of the fellow, but that's awesome to read about, cheers for that! That's exactly the feeling, describes it very well. That must be where the term "flow state" originated then I imagine

I agree that "flow state" is a good term, but looking at the rest of Mihaly's more western approach seemed owkward. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed as though he was bringing it down for the low IQ of us dumb westerners.
 
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_Simon_

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I agree that "flow state" is a good term, but looking at the rest of Mihaly's more western approach seemed owkward. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed as though he was bringing it down for the low IQ of us dumb westerners.
Haha ah yep fair enough. There is value in that at times, rather than dumbing down sometimes 'simplifying' is beneficial and helps quite complex and broad concepts to be distilled into easier to comprehend chunks or foundational teachings. Either that or maybe he has a different perspective or way of expressing this stuff. Or perhaps indeed he is unnecessarily dumbing down hehe, I'd have to read more into it to be honest
 

EdwardA

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Haha ah yep fair enough. There is value in that at times, rather than dumbing down sometimes 'simplifying' is beneficial and helps quite complex and broad concepts to be distilled into easier to comprehend chunks or foundational teachings. Either that or maybe he has a different perspective or way of expressing this stuff. Or perhaps indeed he is unnecessarily dumbing down hehe, I'd have to read more into it to be honest

Yeah, you've got a point, but there are lots of PHDs that think the rest of us are stupid. I've had conversations with a few. They generally don't like me too much...haha.
 

Oily Dragon

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My teacher's philosophy on qigong was based on zhan zhuang practice: stand, avoid interfering, and let the body do what it needs to do.

The wu ji by itself (part of the same practice) is enough to feel Qi. Of course, feeling Qi is not the goal of Qigong.

People are don't "believe" in Qi are deluded. They ignore their own body's energy because they are not attuned with it.
 

Hanzou

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Well, my opinion is that, even with equal atlethic level, chinese traditional arts have somehow less effectiveness.

But my main point here is that CHI seems to add nothing to the skills, except maybe mastering correct respiration and an unperturbed mind.

I guess Xu Xiaodong is doing a great demistification job, and for that is heavily ostracised by chinese government.
And keep in mind that Xu Xiaodong consider himself a "mediocre" MMA fighter

Xu is an extremely mediocre MMA fighter. From what I'm hearing though, Xu is causing concern because his bouts are starting to do serious damage to the credibility of Chinese martial arts in China.
 

mograph

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I agree that "flow state" is a good term, but looking at the rest of Mihaly's more western approach seemed owkward. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed as though he was bringing it down for the low IQ of us dumb westerners.

It's a mistake to conflate the concepts of Flow and Qi.
Csikszentmihalyi is not trying to explain qi.
 

isshinryuronin

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Attention Martial Art Talk administrators -
Several postings here call for the need of an additional rating besides Agree, Like, Useful, etc. -
How about one for "Confused."
 
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