Qi/Chi masters: why, when we talk about real fight, QI is useless?

[EdwardA]

Something that's vague or difficult to describe in words isn't always nonexistent.
It sounds as if you're on a good path.

In other words, it's worked. On the occasions I've had to fight, I just breath and my body knows what to do without me being consciously envolved. My vision goes dark and i don't even know what I did until later. I only see glimpses of what I did.

This is something I've seen very little, or no conversation about. It's something extremely important to me. It's something I found a long time ago. But I started in 1969, so i had plenty of time to develope it. My instuctor understood, is it no longer?

 

[mograph]

This is something I've seen very little, or no conversation about. It's something extremely important to me. It's something I found a long time ago. But I started in 1969, so i had plenty of time to develope it. My instuctor understood, is it no longer?

It's a hard thing to describe, especially to English-speakers. We want to know how something works, what the process is, what the mechanism is. That's an algorithmic step-by-step way of seeing it, which just doesn't get us there. This is why the old guys tell us to "be quiet and practice," so that we discover it by doing it, where we eventually make a breakthrough that seems to come from nowhere. But it comes from dedicated practice, from the unconscious or the implicit: outside our normal conscious thought. (I have a Psych degree, by the way.)

I studied the phenomenon of insight (Eureka!) for a while, and one way to see it is as a back-and-forth practice of looking deeply, and stepping back. Of seeing the small picture, and the big picture. Of the left brain and the right brain. We western types focus on the left brain too much if we can't analyze something, it doesn't exist to us. If you want a heavy read on that left-right brain thing, look up Iain McGilchrist's The Master and His Emissary. I think he has an RSA video along those lines.

Anyway, the people who have looked into it a bit more deeply are the Yiquan folks. Their practice is based heavily on Zhan Zhuang, but it's applicable to all forms. It's like conditioning for martial arts, and I think it's all about what you're looking for.

Where can you study Yiquan? Hoo boy, it's rare, mostly because to a lot of people, it's friggin' boring! Who wants to just stand there? But if you want an introduction, try this: https://www.amazon.com/Yiquan-Beginners-Guide-Basic-Skills/dp/1257161199 . You might be able to find it as a PDF out there.

 

[EdwardA]

It's a hard thing to describe, especially to English-speakers. We want to know how something works, what the process is, what the mechanism is. That's an algorithmic step-by-step way of seeing it, which just doesn't get us there. This is why the old guys tell us to "be quiet and practice," so that we discover it by doing it, where we eventually make a breakthrough that seems to come from nowhere. But it comes from dedicated practice, from the unconscious or the implicit: outside our normal conscious thought. (I have a Psych degree, by the way.)

I studied the phenomenon of insight (Eureka!) for a while, and one way to see it is as a back-and-forth practice of looking deeply, and stepping back. Of seeing the small picture, and the big picture. Of the left brain and the right brain. We western types focus on the left brain too much if we can't analyze something, it doesn't exist to us. If you want a heavy read on that left-right brain thing, look up Iain McGilchrist's The Master and His Emissary. I think he has an RSA video along those lines.

Anyway, the people who have looked into it a bit more deeply are the Yiquan folks. Their practice is based heavily on Zhan Zhuang, but it's applicable to all forms. It's like conditioning for martial arts, and I think it's all about what you're looking for.

Where can you study Yiquan? Hoo boy, it's rare, mostly because to a lot of people, it's friggin' boring! Who wants to just stand there? But if you want an introduction, try this: https://www.amazon.com/Yiquan-Beginners-Guide-Basic-Skills/dp/1257161199 . You might be able to find it as a PDF out there.

Thank you. I appreciate your input and technical understanding. However, I'm not trying to find more about how to progress. I'm completely satisfied with the techniques I use to develope myself. Maybe even satisfied that I figured it out myself, thru my own study and observational capacity. What I am looking for is some other people who understand what I'm talking about. At least a few. I am though, careful about that because I have in the past, run across some that use, or want to use it in very negative ways. Something I had to wrestle with myself.

I will research the terms you posted.

Oh, I've seen these...never learned the Chinese names. My instructor never used his Chinese... almost like it was insulting to him. I practice many of the same structure and concepts. Though I stay close to the upright form of Tai Chi...and the fixed, bent elbow positition. Not entirely, but mostly.

In my blog (on this site) you can see a heavy-bag pattern I've practiced for decades. I haven't done extensive videos, just a few basic ones.

 

[_Simon_]

Being that from the beginning of my training, it was only for situations where there are no rules but to survive...well, and that's not something I ever tried to do on purpose, I mentioned an entrance into a state within repetition where you are beyond movement, but into a zone. Yes the structure has to be unified.

Like some long distance runners. They are not paying attention to running, but instead are just breathing... they're in a different state of mind. I've seen a couple Tai Chi guys that over time are no longer doing 108 moves, but are a moving presence of structure and energy. I realize this is a bit obscure, but I think it's important to understand that there IS a mental process that helps achieve this result.

When I train on my heavy-bag, yes I use structure patterns that I've developed over years of training and combat experience (and within the structure I learned from basics and Tai Chi), but because I've done it for a long time, I'm not there(?). I'm in a place where I'm practicing a state of mind where my potential is more directly envolved. Is that a bit vague? Maybe, but I'm developing something that needs to work when I'm not trying to think...which is when I need it the most.

Makes perfect sense to me EdwardA.

And apologies all for posting in an internal CMA thread, I'm a karate guy with zero CMA experience, but the subject is of great interest, and it's something I've been exploring with an instructor.

I've certainly experienced that zone you speak of, as though time falls away and the whole universe is working to support your technique effortlessly haha. Like a presence and flow that comes when you let go of internal resistance fully, and are deeply connected with the moment.

And yeah like you said about mental process, it's as though the awareness and intention you hold can support that naturalness and ease. I like to think of it as an inner posturing that reflects in the outer posturing.

 

[EdwardA]

Makes perfect sense to me EdwardA.
I've certainly experienced that zone you speak of, as though time falls away and the whole universe is working to support your technique effortlessly haha. Like a presence and flow that comes when you let go of internal resistance fully, and are deeply connected with the moment.

And yeah like you said about mental process, it's as though the awareness and intention you hold can support that naturalness and ease. I like to think of it as an inner posturing that reflects in the outer posturing.

I'm glad you mentioned "time'. One of the first ways I found an entrance into practicing this, was to use visualization to remove what was between point A and point B. In other words, regarding a punch, for instance. Point A being the starting point where you make that decision to move, and point B being where the contact point of where the punch was. I used visualizations, or the reverse to remove in my mind what was between the two. At first, my interest was increasing my speed, but it got into a whole 'nother way of manipulating my mind. For lack of a better reference, I called it blink movement....even tho my eyes were fully open, I lost site of the time and vision in between the two. I had two other entry points into this sort of thing earlier, which maybe we'll discuss after I hear thoughts on what I just mentioned. Haha, one at a time.

 

[EdwardA]

I also have to mention this training envolves some risk. When delving deeply into your conciousnes you've got to be at peace with all of your experiences. One way or another you'll uncover any issues or conflict remaining in your personality. Even from childhood....or anywhere else.

 

[EdwardA]

I'm mostly referring to anger issues. If you haven't gotten rid of it...this training will send you down a destructive path. It doesn't work very well projecting or using anger anyway. Just makes it worse.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I feel at this point I need to interject, training any sort of deeper qigong, without a teacher, can be a bit dangerous.

You may want to look into Qigong-induced psychoses' aka 'Qigong-precipitated psychoses

 

[EdwardA]

I feel at this point I need to interject, training any sort of deeper qigong, without a teacher, can be a bit dangerous.

You may want to look into Qigong-induced psychoses' aka 'Qigong-precipitated psychoses

I would tend to agree, but in the 70s-80s, or even currently, finding anything about this type training is difficult. That's why I'm bringing it up.

In the 7th year of my training I realized my instructor was trying to lead me down a dark path for his own purposes. I refused to be further manipulated in that direction and he threw me out of his school... violently.

When I came home, I had to figure out the issue and correct it. I did, but it was difficult and took time, but I never ran across anybody that knew about this topic. We've only had the research tool of the internet for a short time.

 

[_Simon_]

I'm glad you mentioned "time'. One of the first ways I found an entrance into practicing this, was to use visualization to remove what was between point A and point B. In other words, regarding a punch, for instance. Point A being the starting point where you make that decision to move, and point B being where the contact point of where the punch was. I used visualizations, or the reverse to remove in my mind what was between the two. At first, my interest was increasing my speed, but it got into a whole 'nother way of manipulating my mind. For lack of a better reference, I called it blink movement....even tho my eyes were fully open, I lost site of the time and vision in between the two. I had two other entry points into this sort of thing earlier, which maybe we'll discuss after I hear thoughts on what I just mentioned. Haha, one at a time.

That's really cool, I like that

Sometimes rigorous repetition can facilitate that sort of deep connection (with intention of course): all the mental resistances and limitations come up and when you get past them things really come alive.. sinking into the expression of the technique, and finding that there's a particular essence that's expressed through each technique.

Even though the amazing thing is, every single technique is different, you will never ever do the exact same technique! But the underlying thread and principle of it is what drives its unique expression in the moment. Don't know if that makes sense haha.

I also have to mention this training envolves some risk. When delving deeply into your conciousnes you've got to be at peace with all of your experiences. One way or another you'll uncover any issues or conflict remaining in your personality. Even from childhood....or anywhere else.

Yes absolutely... meditation/contemplative practices I've been involved in for many years, it's unreal what can be unsurfaced... the more little steps taken the more stability within yourself you gain, but the bigger challenges that crop up haha

 

[_Simon_]

I feel at this point I need to interject, training any sort of deeper qigong, without a teacher, can be a bit dangerous.

You may want to look into Qigong-induced psychoses' aka 'Qigong-precipitated psychoses

Good point! Yeah definitely worth noting. And to back off and re-ground yourself if things get a bit much... some sort of anchor to ground you

 

[EdwardA]

Good point! Yeah definitely worth noting. And to back off and re-ground yourself if things get a bit much... some sort of anchor to ground you

Fortunately for me, the outside training I took on myself....in the Tung style Taiji, helped me understand the true nature of natural structure. Anger deeply effects intention, bringing the wrong results. That was something I was able to see. Anything negative simply doesn't work. The Taiji helped me understand.

If you hold any anger or other negative forces, they cause you to dwell on negative things and that disrupts the natural flow of potential. In a major way. It's a disruption that causes big problems.

What I learned...if you hold anger, you're offended by a lot of things. When you're offended, that dwells in your mind and stops the natural flow. You have to let go of that so your potential can be realized.

I may be harping on this, but because I also had to deal with generational family violence...and successful fixed it, I had to learn some very basic things about how things work.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hi everybody.

I have an unconfortable question.
Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI seems to me like an eleborate scam

I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question

thx

I tend to stay out of these types of conversations online these days because I do not want to deal with the ridiculous that pope up around them.

First questions: how are you defining Qi, and how are you talking about its use?

Note: Best description of Qi I have ever heard comes from a TCM Doctor who graduated from Beijing University of TCM
Strong Qi you're healthy
Weak Qi you're sick
No Qi you're dead

 

[EdwardA]

I tend to stay out of these types of conversations online these days because I do not want to deal with the ridiculous that pope up around them.

First questions: how are you defining Qi, and how are you talking about its use?

Note: Best description of Qi I have ever heard comes from a TCM Doctor who graduated from Beijing University of TCM
Strong Qi you're healthy
Weak Qi you're sick
No Qi you're dead

I keep it simple. I define Qi as natural potential. In the details of how it works, it gets complex, but it's a natural process. In order for you to use a lot of your natural potential, things have to be structured and lined up correctly. If they aren't, you can't use much of your potential.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would tend to agree, but in the 70s-80s, or even currently, finding anything about this type training is difficult. That's why I'm bringing it up.

In the 7th year of my training I realized my instructor was trying to lead me down a dark path for his own purposes. I refused to be further manipulated in that direction and he threw me out of his school... violently.

When I came home, I had to figure out the issue and correct it. I did, but it was difficult and took time, but I never ran across anybody that knew about this topic. We've only had the research tool of the internet for a short time.

You really need to understand this

The Chinese Society of Psychiatry calls it "qigong deviation", the American Psychiatric Association uses psychosis terminology. So you have 走火入魔 zǒuhuǒrùmó or qigong deviation and the western la el is Qigong-induced psychoses' aka 'Qigong-precipitated psychoses.

走火入魔 zǒuhuǒrùmó

The term has traditionally been applied to indicate that something has gone wrong in one's martial arts training, interpreted as "imbalance of qi (life energy)".

In more recent history, the term has been applied to refer to undesirable somatic or psychological effects experienced during or after the practice of the broad range of Chinese self-cultivation exercises known as qigong

Symptoms
Symptoms are often identified as being in one of three categories:

1. panic, discomfort, and uncontrolled spontaneous movement;
2. sensory problems, such as visual or auditory hallucination; and
3. irrational beliefs.

Somatic symptoms can include sensations and pain in head, chest and back, abdomen, limbs, or whole body; whereas, mental and emotional symptoms can include neurasthenia, affective disorder, self-consciousness, hallucination, and paranoia

Qigong community perspective
Within the qigong community, Zou huo ru mo is believed to be caused by improper practice:[21]

• Inexperienced or unqualified instructor
• Incorrect instructions
• Impatience
• Becoming frightened, irritated, confused, or suspicious during the course of qigong practice
• Inappropriate focus, interpreted as "inappropriate channeling of qi (life energy)."

DSM-IV calls it a Qigong Psychotic Reaction

DSM-IV
A term describing an acute, time-limited episode characterized by dissociative, paranoid, or other psychotic or nonpsychotic symptoms that may occur after participating in the Chinese folk health-enhancing practice of qi-gong ("exercise of vital energy"). Especially vulnerable are individuals who become overly involved in the practice. This diagnosis is included in the Chinese Classification of Mental Disorders, Second Edition (CCMD-2).

Train silk reeling, train Baduanjin, train any number of qigong forms on your own with little or no training, your might not get it right, but you will be OK. They are referring to the "deeper" form, although my wife had a classmate in college, who was a bigtime Baguazhang guy, who she was convinced was suffering from zǒuhuǒrùmó. I was once training a form of Qigong that I only knew as some type of Tibetan Qigong. I was working with a teacher, but I only saw him once every couple months. It upset my wife to the point where I had to quit. She would not have minded if the teacher was closer and I saw him more often, but once every couple months was not enough, she was concerned about zǒuhuǒrùmó.

But if you are simply talking for martial arts applications (not projecting Qi, which I believe is fake, as does Beijing University of TCM and a lot of old school CMA guys I have known) it is simple relaxed, body (or musculature) unity. And there are a lot of men and women, outside of an internal martial art setting that have that. I had a Sanda (police version) sifu who had it, but went way out of his way to describe it as anything but qi.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I keep it simple. I define Qi as natural potential. In the details of how it works, it gets complex, but it's a natural process. In order for you to use a lot of your natural potential, things have to be structured and lined up correctly. If they aren't, you can't use much of your potential.

Relaxed musculature with body unity and you also get into stuff Bruce Lee talked about in his book

Chinese Gung Fu : The Philosophic Art of Self Defense

Muscle fibers. Meaning what we use to move and what we can potentially use to move. Do Dumbbell curls every day, the same number at the same weight. In the beginning there are gains, but eventually you will gain no more because your body hs figured out what it needs to move they weight, and it does not work to its full potential.

 

[EdwardA]

Relaxed musculature with body unity and you also get into stuff Bruce Lee talked about in his book

Chinese Gung Fu : The Philosophic Art of Self Defense

Muscle fibers. Meaning what we use to move and what we can potentially use to move. Do Dumbbell curls every day, the same number at the same weight. In the beginning there are gains, but eventually you will gain no more because your body hs figured out what it needs to move they weight, and it does not work to its full potential.

I don't use weights. Mostly because you can't take them around with you. A long time ago I came to the conclusion I had to train everywhere I went...thru the whole day. Can't take weights around with you. Even when I was homeless, I still trained all the time. I apply the training into everything I do.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't use weights. Mostly because you can't take them around with you. A long time ago I came to the conclusion I had to train everywhere I went...thru the whole day. Can't take weights around with you.

Not talking about using weights, it was an example to explain the concept of how muscle fibers work as it applies to what it sounds like you are talking about. Same can be done with regular MA training

From what I am reading here, and I apologize if I am misinterpreting your posts, it sounds as if you are approaching this as it is some sort of magical/mystical power, and it isn't. It is not that complicated.

 

[EdwardA]

Not talking about using weights, it was an example to explain the concept of how muscle fibers work as it applies to what it sounds like you are talking about. Same can be done with regular MA training

From what I am reading here, and I apologize if I am misinterpreting your posts, it sounds as if you are approaching this as it is some sort of magical/mystical power, and it isn't. It is not that complicated.

I'm not sure why you're seeing it that way... maybe because you've seen it discussed that way. It is nothing but natural potential.

 

[EdwardA]

I'll add, it may seem different to you. I was led off in the wrong direction from family violence, and by an instructor that wanted to use and develop my destructive force for his own purposes. Not everybody gets the positive training that's correct. I had to fix that in myself. So I had to understand some extemely basic structures of how the mind works. Might seem mystical to some, but it's not.

If you have deep-seated anger, you are offended by practically everything. What's mystical about that? I see it all over our society these days. I had to figure out how to fix that in myself. There's nothing mystical about that either. I figured it out and found peace. That's a natural process, and because I did that I learned how every aspect of that works. The training forced me to deal with it and I did.