Qi/Chi masters: why, when we talk about real fight, QI is useless?

[androz]

Hi everybody.

I have an unconfortable question.
Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI seems to me like an eleborate scam

I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question

thx

 

[jobo]

Hi everybody.

I have an unconfortable question.
Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI seems to me like an eleborate scam

I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question

thx

well,,,, tc it not now often viewed as a fighting art, at least not outside china,probable not much in, rather as moving meditation with numerous health benifits,
why would it loose to mma or mt, for the same reason that most other tradtional arts would, they are just better

 

[androz]

well,,,, tc it not now often viewed as a fighting art, at least not outside china,probable not much in, rather as moving meditation with numerous health benifits,
why would it loose to mma or mt, for the same reason that most other tradtional arts would, they are just better

That is my opinion too.
If we speak about moving meditation i totally agree.

But i heard lot of ppl into chinese traditional arts bragging about "true masters" that could beat the hell out of MMA or MT due to a superior mastership of CHI/QI

 

[jobo]

That is my opinion too.
If we speak about moving meditation i totally agree.

But i heard lot of ppl into chinese traditional arts bragging about "true masters" that could beat the hell out of MMA or MT due to a superior mastership of CHI/QI

im not dismising someone who is athletic and train tc as a fighting art beibg more than capable of being able to put up a robust defence against most people

its starts to come unstuck when you belive chi gives you super human strengh and your going up against a pro level fighter

 

[Buka]

Welcome to Martial Talk, Androz. Hope you enjoy it.

 

[Ivan]

Hi everybody.

I have an unconfortable question.
Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI seems to me like an eleborate scam

I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question

thx

I mean if you're training a martial art that solely focuses on Qi or internal strength then of course it will fail - assuming such thing even exists. You can't expect to physically overpower someone using techniques that only train your inner presence and image. Personally I believe it exists. I've made forum posts about it and researched the concept for a certain dissertation I also posted about. From what I have understood it is supposed to be a life force that ebbs and flows through everyone and everything. But regardless of whether it's real or not - the form you see in the Bullshido certainly doesn't. There will never be a martial art that can shoot waves of The Force.

 

[androz]

Welcome to Martial Talk, Androz. Hope you enjoy it.

thx buka

 

[androz]

im not dismising someone who is athletic and train tc as a fighting art beibg more than capable of being able to put up a robust defence against most people

its starts to come unstuck when you belive chi gives you super human strengh and your going up against a pro level fighter

Well, my opinion is that, even with equal atlethic level, chinese traditional arts have somehow less effectiveness.

But my main point here is that CHI seems to add nothing to the skills, except maybe mastering correct respiration and an unperturbed mind.

I guess Xu Xiaodong is doing a great demistification job, and for that is heavily ostracised by chinese government.
And keep in mind that Xu Xiaodong consider himself a "mediocre" MMA fighter

 

[androz]

I mean if you're training a martial art that solely focuses on Qi or internal strength then of course it will fail - assuming such thing even exists. You can't expect to physically overpower someone using techniques that only train your inner presence and image. Personally I believe it exists. I've made forum posts about it and researched the concept for a certain dissertation I also posted about. From what I have understood it is supposed to be a life force that ebbs and flows through everyone and everything. But regardless of whether it's real or not - the form you see in the Bullshido certainly doesn't. There will never be a martial art that can shoot waves of The Force.

Well, imaho is a metaphysical concept that cannot be disproven, but scientifically not proven.

 

[EdwardA]

Hi everybody.

I have an unconfortable question.
Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI seems to me like an eleborate scam

I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question

thx

I have to wonder what you think qi/chi is? What do you think it does for you?

 

[androz]

I have to wonder what you think qi/chi is? What do you think it does for you?

i'm interested in martial application of QI
I was told QI is an internal force that enhance your performance in more ways if you master it

I would like to know if and how it improves your martial skills

 

[EdwardA]

I was told QI is an internal force that enhance your performance in more ways if you master it

I would like to know if and how it improves your martial skills

Qi isn't a mistical force. It's a natural one.... where what you have to use is operating up to it's potential.

I've seen a couple Tai Chi guys you can't move out of their structure, short of injuring them (if you could get to them). It's a subtle thing that I would say involves practicing some basics beyond the point of monotney, to a place that's not. They can be advanced structures, regardless, you have to train and consider them to a different level of understanding than most people are willing to. Some of it is engrainig structural movement into muscle memory, but there a lot more to it. It is natural, but takes extreme dedication.

I'm not sure how else I can describe it's delelopment...in words.

I will add, there are some breathing exercises that are important to this development.

 

[EdwardA]

Center of gravity, stance, posture, et.al...structure, all those thing have to be working in unison, and correctly.

 

[Ivan]

Well, imaho is a metaphysical concept that cannot be disproven, but scientifically not proven.

Yes, the term is pseudoscientific. I talked about it a bit in some of the research I did, if you would like me to link it?

 

[mograph]

Well, qi as a concept is context-dependent.

• TCM types use the concept to describe both general and specific physical functioning. The concept is a tool, sort of a metaphor.
• martial types who know what they're doing use the concept in contrast to li, muscular force. It is a concept that describes unified, distributed force through as much of the body (muscles, bones, tendons) as possible, rather than through specific muscles such as the triceps. This idea of unity and big-picture is woven into the Chinese (and other Far Eastern) culture, while Western culture has emphasized drilling down into components.
• when they talk about moving qi around, they're not talking about some kind of thing moving; they're talking about your mental intention (yi) and internal awareness moving through your body, and if you are practiced enough, this subtle intention can result in slightly increased body functions (e.g. increased circulation) along the way. If you doubt the effects of such movement, think about how signals travel from your brain to your bicep to lift a weight.
• qi as a concept also describes information within the body. It's not numbers or words: those are systems of symbols we've made up. No, the body passes information all the time from your brain to your organs, between your muscles and tendons, telling other components to send more white corpuscles, to pump more blood, whatever. The systems in your body are not isolated: ****'s moving around all the time, and qi is a concept that describes that movement.
• along those lines, this is why some describe the concept of qi as a wave. In a water wave, while the wave seems to move across to our eye, the water just goes up and down if we look carefully. In the sense of qi, something happens at one point in the body and a signal, electrical or chemical happens. That triggers the same thing to happen in an adjacent cell (or whatever), and so on. Nothing actually moves, but this on/off is transferred along a path in the same way that the up/down of a wave occurs. In a metaphorical sense, qi "moves" like a wave "moves."

In a Chinese context, qi is not a thing. It's not measured. It's not electricity. It can't make you do magic.
Chinese types who know what they're doing know that the magical stuff is BS, but they are hesitant to call out the charlatans. Yes, "face" is real. They also don't spell out what I'm saying because from their point of view, it might be patronizing to the Western folk: of course it's a concept, a metaphor. They're trying to save our face. It would be like our meeting a client who thinks that Sherlock Holmes is a real man. What would we say to him?

It's a useful concept to describe complex stuff.

It manifests in measurable phenomena such as increased blood circulation, muscular activity, body heat, but in a TCM context, qi is a concept that attempts to describe an aggregate of these bodily functions.

In a martial context, it refers to the distributed use of the body components in the application of force or techniques: if you are "using your qi," you have distributed your effort through so many body components, and you cannot easily name which muscles you use to execute a technique. It feels nearly effortless because the effort is distributed through your entire body. Lift a weight with one arm; lift it with two arms, and it weighs half. Extrapolate this concept to shoving someone using only your triceps, then using your entire body. That's "using your qi." Again ignore the charlatans.

I hope that helps.

 

[_Simon_]

Well, qi as a concept is context-dependent.

• TCM types use the concept to describe both general and specific physical functioning. The concept is a tool, sort of a metaphor.
• martial types who know what they're doing use the concept in contrast to li, muscular force. It is a concept that describes unified, distributed force through as much of the body (muscles, bones, tendons) as possible, rather than through specific muscles such as the triceps. This idea of unity and big-picture is woven into the Chinese (and other Far Eastern) culture, while Western culture has emphasized drilling down into components.
• when they talk about moving qi around, they're not talking about some kind of thing moving; they're talking about your mental intention (yi) and internal awareness moving through your body, and if you are practiced enough, this subtle intention can result in slightly increased body functions (e.g. increased circulation) along the way. If you doubt the effects of such movement, think about how signals travel from your brain to your bicep to lift a weight.
• qi as a concept also describes information within the body. It's not numbers or words: those are systems of symbols we've made up. No, the body passes information all the time from your brain to your organs, between your muscles and tendons, telling other components to send more white corpuscles, to pump more blood, whatever. The systems in your body are not isolated: ****'s moving around all the time, and qi is a concept that describes that movement.
• along those lines, this is why some describe the concept of qi as a wave. In a water wave, while the wave seems to move across to our eye, the water just goes up and down if we look carefully. In the sense of qi, something happens at one point in the body and a signal, electrical or chemical happens. That triggers the same thing to happen in an adjacent cell (or whatever), and so on. Nothing actually moves, but this on/off is transferred along a path in the same way that the up/down of a wave occurs. In a metaphorical sense, qi "moves" like a wave "moves."

In a Chinese context, qi is not a thing. It's not measured. It's not electricity. It can't make you do magic.
Chinese types who know what they're doing know that the magical stuff is BS, but they are hesitant to call out the charlatans. Yes, "face" is real. They also don't spell out what I'm saying because from their point of view, it might be patronizing to the Western folk: of course it's a concept, a metaphor. They're trying to save our face. It would be like our meeting a client who thinks that Sherlock Holmes is a real man. What would we say to him?

It's a useful concept to describe complex stuff.

It manifests in measurable phenomena such as increased blood circulation, muscular activity, body heat, but in a TCM context, qi is a concept that attempts to describe an aggregate of these bodily functions.

In a martial context, it refers to the distributed use of the body components in the application of force or techniques: if you are "using your qi," you have distributed your effort through so many body components, and you cannot easily name which muscles you use to execute a technique. It feels nearly effortless because the effort is distributed through your entire body. Lift a weight with one arm; lift it with two arms, and it weighs half. Extrapolate this concept to shoving someone using only your triceps, then using your entire body. That's "using your qi." Again ignore the charlatans.

I hope that helps.

Thanks heaps for that info @mograph , that's incredibly helpful

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[mograph]

I guess I'd better address the question:

Along the lines of EdwardA's answer, the concept of qi is not useless, as it's the use of unified body components and mechanics in such a way that it difficult to analyze using isolation of specific components. However, it's the kind of thing that experts "get" through experience. They just know what the other guy's doing. Not only is it difficult to analyze or counter, it is efficient, intuitive, and fast.

We see this in other disciplines. When an individual achieves high skill, it becomes more intuitive to them, more implicit.

Here's a tip if you want to mess up a skilled practitioner who acts at an implicit level. Compliment them on a very specific technique, component, or action. You will be planting the suggestion that they revisit their practice at a point when it was explicit; when they were still learning the technique explicitly, and there's a chance they'll temporarily go back to that point, and waver a bit. Sometimes this works, depending on how the person responds to what you say. That's why I said you should try complimenting them: their guard might be down if you are friendly. Of course, it depends on the person and the context: a compliment between rounds of a bout would be out of place.

 

[mograph]

Thanks heaps for that info @mograph , that's incredibly helpful

Thanks!

 

[EdwardA]

I guess I'd better address the question:

Along the lines of EdwardA's answer, the concept of qi is not useless, as it's the use of unified body components and mechanics in such a way that it difficult to analyze using isolation of specific components. However, it's the kind of thing that experts "get" through experience. They just know what the other guy's doing. Not only is it difficult to analyze or counter, it is efficient, intuitive, and fast.

We see this in other disciplines. When an individual achieves high skill, it becomes more intuitive to them, more implicit.

Here's a tip if you want to mess up a skilled practitioner who acts at an implicit level. Compliment them on a very specific technique, component, or action. You will be planting the suggestion that they revisit their practice at a point when it was explicit; when they were still learning the technique explicitly, and there's a chance they'll temporarily go back to that point, and waver a bit. Sometimes this works, depending on how the person responds to what you say. That's why I said you should try complimenting them: their guard might be down if you are friendly. Of course, it depends on the person and the context: a compliment between rounds of a bout would be out of place.

Being that from the beginning of my training, it was only for situations where there are no rules but to survive...well, and that's not something I ever tried to do on purpose, I mentioned an entrance into a state within repetition where you are beyond movement, but into a zone. Yes the structure has to be unified.

Like some long distance runners. They are not paying attention to running, but instead are just breathing... they're in a different state of mind. I've seen a couple Tai Chi guys that over time are no longer doing 108 moves, but are a moving presence of structure and energy. I realize this is a bit obscure, but I think it's important to understand that there IS a mental process that helps achieve this result.

When I train on my heavy-bag, yes I use structure patterns that I've developed over years of training and combat experience (and within the structure I learned from basics and Tai Chi), but because I've done it for a long time, I'm not there(?). I'm in a place where I'm practicing a state of mind where my potential is more directly envolved. Is that a bit vague? Maybe, but I'm developing something that needs to work when I'm not trying to think...which is when I need it the most.

 

[mograph]

I'm in a place where I'm practicing a state of mind where my potential is more directly envolved. Is that a bit vague? Maybe, but I'm developing something that needs to work when I'm not trying to think...which is when I need it the most.

Something that's vague or difficult to describe in words isn't always nonexistent.
It sounds as if you're on a good path.