push and pull

[jobo]

I've been reading a,series of articles that put forward the position, that in our every day lives most of us use our pushing muscles far more than our pulling ones, and that that leads to a lot of shoulder and back issue

. Even with a lot exercises and sport, there is a push bias. Which then rather than improving our health give us problems. I can see a lot of this in karate, were a lot of the training is push biased, kicking, punching, press ups,horse stance etc . And I'm musing if that is why people are reporting having knee, shoulder and back problems etc. When really they should be amongst the most healthy people on the planet. The amount of time they spend training

the solution in the articles is we should exercise our pulling muscle at a ratio of two to one against out pulling muscles.to redress the ballance

so, 50press ups equals 100 upright rows, five minutes of horse stance equals ten mins of hamstring exercises . then when balance is achieved, make sure that any push exercise is followed by a pulling one to maintain it. This would make karate training look very much like Pilates

thought?

 

[JR 137]

Absolutely. I fell victim to this when I was wrestling in high school. We did hundreds of push-ups a day in practice without much pulling specific exercises. We did a lot of pulling of our opponents through the natural course of wrestling, but very little pulling exercises in opposition to the push-ups, if you will. Will did a lot of pull-ups/chin-ups on the bars on the wall, did monkey bars on the playground, occasionally climbed the ropes, but 1) not nearly as many as the pull-ups and 2) they weren't in direct opposition (pulling up instead of pulling in).

Immediately after my senior year wrestling, I started getting severe spasms in my rhomboids and mid trapezius; between my shoulder blades. My shoulders were rounded too far forward because my front was too strong for my back, causing those back muscles to work too hard to maintain proper posture.

A 2:1 pull to push ratio is a good rule of thumb. It does leave some unexpected interpretation however - should you do twice as many sets? Twice as many exercises? Same number of both, but twice as much weight? People mess this up, and it's easy to do.

I don't believe there's a single correct nor incorrect answer. My opinion is it depends. Assess posture and any symptoms and take it from there. If the shoulders are rounded forward, do more pulling until they aren't (in conjunction with stretching the anterior muscles and conscious postural training).

Another key muscle that gets ignored quite frequently is serratus anterior. You see it predominantly people n body builders are those muscles that look like fingers on the side of the ribs under the arm pit. They pull the shoulder blade onto the back/ribs.

A good quick test of if you need more pulling and weak serratus anterior strength is have someone watch you doing a push-up. If the shoulder blades come off the ribs (the inside edge sticking up), you've got a deficiency. Not the be all, end all test, but a good starting point.

 

[jobo]

the article was suggesting you should do it by volume, ie total weight shifted rather than reps or sets, but that's an awful lot easier to work out in a weight room than it is using body weight or in a ma class

 

[JR 137]

the article was suggesting you should do it by volume, ie total weight shifted rather than reps or sets, but that's an awful lot easier to work out in a weight room than it is using body weight or in a ma class

There's still room for interpretation in total weight/volume lifted too...

Let's say I bench press 1000 lbs total today - 200 lbs 5 times over the course of a workout. If I row 1000 lbs total, I may still have a deficiency if I do 10 lbs 100 times over a course of a workout. It takes far more strength to do 200 lbs 5 times, and far more endurance to do 10 lbs 100 times. My pushing muscles will be far stronger.

I know, I'm getting a bit too knit picky with it, but it does effect the overall outcome and over time leads back to the very reason.

The principal is commonly and easily misinterpreted. The best advice IMO is constantly assess the deficiencies and adjust rather than counting total weight/volume lifted. If you've got back pain from too much pushing, you've got to get stronger at pulling.

And endurance in pulling is underrated/understudied IMO. If you're upright for long periods of time, the muscles will fatigue, causing pain, spasms, etc.

That principle reminds me of an assessment Mike Clark published in a journal and subsequently was picked up by men's health magazine. I was using it as a pre-screening assessment during pre-season physicals. It was simple - arms straight up, and squat. There were a lot of things to look for that helped with injury prevention and addressing deficiencies.

Then another person I worked alongside said "that's a great assessment, but shouldn't we do it AFTER fatigue?" Think about it - relatively speaking, it's easy to hide deficiencies when you're not physically tired. People will walk into the dojo without hunching over, dragging a leg, etc. When they walk out, the posture changes after a very hard workout (assuming there's no injury). That's the true test of where deficiencies lie - the weaker and least endurant (is that a word) will show up first.

Sorry for the bit of a side track. You're on to something with this thread.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I try to balance my exercises by working out both sides. I have about 10 drills, some martial, that requires me to pull. I used to do a lot of cycling, using toe clips, which gave me about 2 hours worth pulling with my legs.

As for the knee injuries, people are probably rotating on the knee which happens often when kicking or with improper stances. incorrect running technique will also kill the knees

 

[JP3]

I've been reading a,series of articles that put forward the position, that in our every day lives most of us use our pushing muscles far more than our pulling ones, and that that leads to a lot of shoulder and back issue

. Even with a lot exercises and sport, there is a push bias. Which then rather than improving our health give us problems. I can see a lot of this in karate, were a lot of the training is push biased, kicking, punching, press ups,horse stance etc . And I'm musing if that is why people are reporting having knee, shoulder and back problems etc. When really they should be amongst the most healthy people on the planet. The amount of time they spend training

the solution in the articles is we should exercise our pulling muscle at a ratio of two to one against out pulling muscles.to redress the ballance

so, 50press ups equals 100 upright rows, five minutes of horse stance equals ten mins of hamstring exercises . then when balance is achieved, make sure that any push exercise is followed by a pulling one to maintain it. This would make karate training look very much like Pilates

thought?

First thing that came to mind is that the anti-gravity muscle groups (neck, erector spinae of the back, glutes, quadriceps and calf pair (gastroc/soleus) the opposing muscle group does not really need, nor are they designed to, be offsetting nearly as much "Work" in the physics sense as the others.

But, I know that lots of people develop knee issues if they train their quads and glutes a lot and don't work on their hamstrings. I know people who have had that happen tot hem, and it's easily "cured" with a couple months of "neglecting" quad-work, and doing almost exclusively hammy work, then blending the two afterwards. So, there's probably something to it, I just wonder if it's globally-applicable across all muscle sets in the body.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'd be interested in how they came to that conclusion. When carrying stuff, we use the "pulling" muscles (all muscles actually pull, but I understand the distinction you - and presumably the article - are using) in our arms/back much more than the pushing muscles in our arms/chest.

 

[kuniggety]

I'd be interested in how they came to that conclusion. When carrying stuff, we use the "pulling" muscles (all muscles actually pull, but I understand the distinction you - and presumably the article - are using) in our arms/back much more than the pushing muscles in our arms/chest.

I think it's not so much in daily life but rather in body conditioning. Pushing gets very much emphasized.

I lift and think about how many of the big lifts are pushing: bench press, overhead press, the various squats, etc. Strong lifts adds deadlifts as the only "pull" exercise. I balance this by throwing in pull ups and I do bent over rows with the same weight as I do my bench press with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it's not so much in daily life but rather in body conditioning. Pushing gets very much emphasized.

I lift and think about how many of the big lifts are pushing: bench press, overhead press, the various squats, etc. Strong lifts adds deadlifts as the only "pull" exercise. I balance this by throwing in pull ups and I do bent over rows with the same weight as I do my bench press with.

Ah, agreed. The "push" exercises are much emphasized.

 

[JR 137]

Ah, agreed. The "push" exercises are much emphasized.

A big part of why the "push muscles" are overemphasized is very simple - they're the "mirror muscles" - the ones you see when you're facing a mirror. The only overemphasized pulling muscle is the biceps. Look in the mirror - you see pecs, abs, biceps, anterior and medial deltoids (the front and side of the schoulder), upper trapezius, and quads. You don't see rhomboids (between the shoulder blades), mid and lower trapezius, glutes, and hamstrings. The only exception is calves, as people like to develop them too.

 

[DanT]

If you look at what many who study exercise science / kinesiology to be the fundamental 6 weight training movements, there is a balance between push and pull:

Pull:
-Deadlift
-Barbell Row
-Pull Up

Push:
-Squat
-Bench Press
-Military Press

 

[Zombocalypse]

The muscles of the legs, posterior chain, core and upper back must be prioritized. This is true for every person alive. Being truly strong is about legs and back more than anything else. Pressing strength is just for show. And pressing strength is dependent on back muscles, believe it or not. You can't military-press 100 pounds if you can't deadlift 100 pounds. It's inconceivable. And if you care to study about world-renowned bench-pressers, you'll soon realize that they all train their backs just as much as their pressing muscles. In fact, their back-training is considered to be supplementary to their bench-press training.

What Dan John once said: The body is one piece.

And a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

 

[jobo]

I think it's not so much in daily life but rather in body conditioning. Pushing gets very much emphasized.

I lift and think about how many of the big lifts are pushing: bench press, overhead press, the various squats, etc. Strong lifts adds deadlifts as the only "pull" exercise. I balance this by throwing in pull ups and I do bent over rows with the same weight as I do my bench press with.

I've been carrying out a not very,scientific study as I go about my day, I've seen people pushing shopping trolleys ive seen people pushing prams, lawn mowers and car and bikes.
the only thing I've seen people pulling is those little suit cases on wheels.
i think there is indeed a push bias in most peoples normal lives.
ive all so been noting peoples posture, it seem the vast majority over say 30 have a forward lean to their walking, standing and,sitting habits, caused to the most part by weak pull muscles, seeing some sat up straight is a complete rarity, its all forward neck rounded forward shoulders and a,weak back that can't pull them straight