Purpose of naihanchi

[trueaspirer]

The naihanchi forms were once described to me as examples of defense when your back is to a wall. Therefore, when bringing our hands back, we had to bring them at 180 to our body, i.e, our arms could go to where the backs of our bodies were, no futher. However, another instructor later explained to me that this was not the case, although he did not explain it further.
Can anybody tell me which one is the truth?

 

[Andrew Green]

No, it's not.

Think about it, why on earth would you stand and fight with your back to the wall. If you where back to the wall you should be getting off the wall, not standing and fighting

Think more in terms of the types of movements and posture it teaches and how those carry over into the rest of the style. The needing of a scenario for a kata I think is a western addition in most cases, it's teaching movement and posture, that's the purpose.

 

[DavidCC]

Shihan Evan Pantazzi has been working naihanchi applications in grappling for some time. Maybe that is what's going on there... For example, the salutation with foot lifted makes an arm bar with an extremely painful rub attack on TW-11, if you picture it horizontally...

 

[Andrew Green]

My opinion on that sort of stuff, which I have seen before, is that it is rather silly. Kata can work like ink blots, if you want to see something in there, you will. But, there is no groundfighint in Naihanchi, that would make no sense. Would have to be the least effective way to train groundfighting....

 

[Makalakumu]

My opinion on that sort of stuff, which I have seen before, is that it is rather silly. Kata can work like ink blots, if you want to see something in there, you will. But, there is no groundfighint in Naihanchi, that would make no sense. Would have to be the least effective way to train groundfighting....

Andrew, why can't the purpose of the kata grow and change? If someone starts to interpret the kata so it includes groundfighting, so what? Kata are really just mnemotic devices for simple and complex techniques.

I don't see any problem with this evolution. However, I do have a problem if people claim that it was always there. That has yet to be substantiated.

 

[Andrew Green]

Whatever floats your boat I guess, but it's got to be one of the least effective training methods for learning groundfighting...

 

[Makalakumu]

Whatever floats your boat I guess, but it's got to be one of the least effective training methods for learning groundfighting...

I suppose it might be...but I think that it will evolve into something more sophisticated and get better. I'm not sure.

I've seen some pretty interesting applications though. And I've trained bunkai in some pretty interesting ways. One thing to keep in mind is that kata do not contain everything one needs to know about stand-up fighting. There are alot of auxillary concepts that need to be taught in order to put the bunkai into motion.

Why would groundfighting be any different?

Here is an interesting little exercise for people who know naihanchi kata. Try doing the form lying on your back and try doing it laying face down on the floor...

 

[Ian wallace]

the naihanchi form is exactly as your instructor explained, you are fighting as if you where againsted a wall,the reason you will practice alot of movements to get yourself in a position to get off the wall is as we dont exactly know what technique will come from the opponent, so we practice alot to make it a reaction to their action kind of like in class we practice the same movement thousands and thousands of times on the understanding that it will create a natural reaction all the naihanchi forms where one befor but becouse it was so complicated to learn it was split between 3 forms.

 

[marlon]

The main importance of the Naihanchi kata imho is teaching the whipping motion needed to generate powerful strikes. The reason most of the motion is done from the side is to help train this concept. As for application ground and standing Naihanchi is replete with them...and i believe the ground grappling/jujistu aspect was always there although not as the mma way we look at grappling these days. As for fighting with Naihanchi it is side on for beginners not with your back against a wall and the kata teach you how to evade your opponent and move behind them. Chokoi Motubo used this kata often and his philosophy of the martial arts was that there was nothing as dangerous as a martial artist who could not fight. He fought ofetn and not with his back against a wall

Respectfully,
Marlon
4th dan

 

[Silverwing]

My instructor explained the Naihanchi forms to me as having originally been on horseback. In Nahanchi Cho Dan, for example, the first move according to him is getting into the saddle. At various points changing horses or moving to one side of the horse for various purposes are other things he explained to us.

 

[Makalakumu]

Back against the wall? Horseback? Standing in a rice paddie? All of those explanations are myths. They built upon and passed because of a faulty understanding of the hyung. Naihanchi and its applications can have attacks coming at you from any angle. They can be striking, pulling or pushing all sorts of different areas of your body. And your response can land you in numerous positions around your uke...including on the ground if you are creative enough.

These myths will only hold you back in your understanding of this kata. The creators of this form and the original practicioners did not limit themselves with such myths? And I don't think that we should either.

 

[mtabone]

You Go Upnorth!!!

Tang Soo!!!

 

[BlackCatBonz]

the name naifanchi or naihanchi comes from the posture used originally in the kata.
the name was changed by funakoshi to tekki, which means iron horse....not only did he change the name, he changed the posture of the kata from a mobile upright stance to a deeper, more rooted stance.
naihanchi is more akin to a sanchin posture.......the 3 characters can be translated to mean something like , inner, claw foot, soil........if you look at some old pictures of motobu, you will see that his posture is far different than funakoshi's.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Greetings to all,
The thing to understand when discussing Hyung/Kata is that every Grandmaster saw something unique and different and comprised his system based on HIS vision. When we ask the question; what is this technique really supposed to be? You have to ask the question; based on who’s vision?

Choki Motobu and Gichen Funakoshi both trained under Itosu (and others), but came from very different backgrounds with philosophies the were 180 degrees from one another. If you train under Choki Motobu’s lineage you are taught that the only kata that one needs is Naihanchi Cho Dan. This was his favorite kata, and if you understand his interpretation of the Bunkai, you will clearly understand why he felt as he did.

Funakoshi did not know the Bunkai, as was clearly stated by Shugeru Egami in his book, Karate-Do, Beyond Technique. Egami was one of Funakoshi’s senior most students, and stated in his book that; the master never taught us Bunkai, as he had not learned it from Itosu prior to traveling to Japan. As Tang Soo Do practitioners, we follow Hwang Kee’s vision. Hwang Kee learned from Funakoshi’s lineage, as he trained with other Koreans that returned from Japan after the war who had attained their training and rank from Funakoshi and his students. If Hwang Kee learned from Funakoshi’s lineage, and Funakoshi did not know the Bunkai, as was taught by Itosu, and others in Okinawa, then Hwang was, like so many others, left to see what he could for himself, and what he saw was the rudimentary applications that have been passed down that everyone sees as useless.

I have spent the past 35 years cross-training in Tang Soo Do, Shotokan, Isshinryu and Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu, as well as in Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu and Wing Chun Gung Fu. What the understanding that I have established as a result of this intense cross-training is; how each grandmaster established his vision of what technique is, and how it should be applied.

For those who have trained with me, and many of you already have, you know what I am talking about, as you have scene me demonstrate these concepts, as each system has introduced and taught them. For those of you who have not trained with me yet, you are welcome to contact me at any time to set up a training session.

John Kendrowski is setting up seminars with me for the weekend of November 17th. Everyone will be welcome to attend, and I will make it a point to go through Naihainchi Chodan.

With regard to the concept of moving from side to side with you back to a wall, this is a very real application, as the concept is that there are multiple assailants coming at you. Keeping you back to the wall allows you to keep from being attack from behind. Also, it allows you to use the wall as a striking surface to run your opponents heads, and hands into as they are charging and striking at you.

If you have not yet read Bruce Clayton’s book, “Shotokan’s Secret”, this is a must read for everyone. It can be ordered on line for $16.95. In his book he sets up a supposition that makes better sense then any that I have read to date, and is based on the facts surrounding the time that the Okinawan masters were devising the kata that became Shotokan, Tang Soo Do, and other systems along the way…


If you want to contact me directly, I can be reached at:
masterjayspenfil@yahoo.com
248-561-5700 (cell)


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil



TANG SOO!!!

 

[tsdclaflin]

Interesting...thank you.

 

[mjd]

Legend has it that all 5 Naihanchi katas was a single Kata, was then reversed order. a GREAT Master broke it into 5 katas and changed the order to make easier to teach.

You say Naihanchi Cho dan was the favorite, how does this legend fit into that picture, can you give more detail of this legend.

One more qestion? I have heard that naihanchi could also be viewed as ground fighting, have anyone else heard of this?

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

The Naihanchi Kata isn't part of that story...

You are referring to the proposition that Itosu Sensei took Kushanku Kata and devised the 5-Pinan Kata from it. There are others that believe that Itosu developed the Pinan's from Channan, another kata that has since been lost.

The Naihanchi kata are a completely different set of Kata.

Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[DavidCC]

I have a tape of Sensei Oyata of kansas City demonstrating Naihanchi bunkai. I don't see anything that necessarily looks like back against a wall. In fact in many techniques he steps backwards. What I do see is a whole lot of very direct attacks to pressure points resulting in some very painful moments for his favorite uke's (you know a technique is going to be good when the clips starts with the uke in a helmet and a big crash mat on the floor behind him). Also a good number of throws and locks... it's a real gold mine

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

David,
I also have Oyata Sensei’s tapes, and have watched them over and over again over the past ten years. Oyata has many students here in the Metro-Detroit area who I have trained with for the past thirty-plus years.

I can remember in 1987 when I was preparing to move to Arizona, Sensei Bob White (an 8th Dan in Isshinryu Karate) came to the dojo of Sensei Burt Ross. That evening there were perhaps 20 senior Isshinryu black belts present for training. Sensei White gathered us all around to tell us about this amazing Okinawan instructor that he had been working with, and the mind-blowing Bunkai that he showed him for our kata’s.

Everyone was quite taken by what Sensei White showed us. Oyata has an awesome understanding of, and ability to perform technique and Bunkai. I am, however, not a fan of any instructor who knocks uke’s out or damages them in any way for the purpose of demonstration. I demonstrate on students all over the country from different systems and organizations. You will never hear of anyone being injured by me. There is no need to hurt anyone in demonstration…

One of my instructors had his heart stopped by Oyata at a seminar here in Detroit several years ago. The EMS team had to resuscitate his heart. He told me about it afterwards.

I have personally not met him. Have you personally trained with Oyata? If yes, what was your experience like?


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

 

[DavidCC]

No, I have not met him either. I would like to learn what he knows but I am a bit afraid to LOL. I understand MT member pstarr goes way back with him, from what I've read...

-d