Recently saw a picture of the sprawl, I think it was called, wrestling defence. If someone is useing the sprawl against you, nut shots aside, you have excellent axcess to the back of the knee. Now, I know that pressure to the major artery there can make you pass out, eventually. It was the first thought I had when I saw the picture. He's leaving himself very vulnerable. I know you can cause pain, and even do damage to the knee, but the potential to KO from beneath? Any thoughts?
Pressure to the back of the knee
- Thread starter Lameman
- Start date
I'm not a grappler who would sprawl, but I'm fairly certain if it's down correctly their arms are too far away to do that, and even if you do, it wouldn't be too powerful. Any chance you can post the picture?
Outside of that you can definitely hurt someone a lot by hitting the back of the knee, but never heard of someone passing out by a strike to the back of the knee.
Outside of that you can definitely hurt someone a lot by hitting the back of the knee, but never heard of someone passing out by a strike to the back of the knee.
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Danny T
Senior Master
Lameman you haven't been on the receiving end of a well executed sprawl have you?
You will be driven face first into the ground and the sprawl is performed to prevent the access to the legs and the back of the knee. If the knee is caught the driving of the legs rearward counters that.
You will be driven face first into the ground and the sprawl is performed to prevent the access to the legs and the back of the knee. If the knee is caught the driving of the legs rearward counters that.
I can see front of knee. If you blow out someones knee and cause them enough pain I can see it happening. Definitely not from a sprawl though.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Screw sprawls. You would just ko dudes from inside guard.
Or adrenaline could mask most of the pain but make them really, really mad at you
A neat idea, but not really practical. Its the same principal as passing out from locking the knees. Which in and of itself doesn't make you pass out. But, for some people, locking the knee interrupts the bloodflow back to the heart. If I understand it correctly, Your bloodpressure drops too low, you don't get enough oxygen to the brain and you pass out. Artery, vein, not sure if I am using the right word. Apply pressure, and theorretically, the same thing should happen. I do not know know how long that takes, and obviously not practical, in 99.9 bar percent of fighting situations but it was a neat idea.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
(I had to look that up)
Are we talking about locking knees as some sort of contributor to passing out when you stand still to long?
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I wasn't familiar with the 'sprawl' defense. In the Hapkido I learned, we had a side headlock defense where we simultaneously pushed forcefully into the back of the knee with our outside thumb while moving our other hand up and around to the opponent's face and pulling back. The pulling back and pushing forward with the thumb while encircling the front of the knee for grip power, will usually put your opponent on the ground. We consider it a pressure point move. If the adrenaline of the opponent is up he may not let go of the headlock. If so, he will pull you down, which you should be prepared for, driving your outside knee into his short ribs.
Arteries, veins, and how they might be affected, that I don't know about. They are in the back of the knee, just as are nerves. I just know that when properly done it is very painful to the opponent who will react to that pain by moving his leg up and forward. The backward pressure on his face with only one leg to stand on, and being forced backward will cause him to fall.
But from looking up the sprawl, the defense I mentioned would be difficult to apply I think, but I am not a wrestler to know if there is a way to do it from that position.
Arteries, veins, and how they might be affected, that I don't know about. They are in the back of the knee, just as are nerves. I just know that when properly done it is very painful to the opponent who will react to that pain by moving his leg up and forward. The backward pressure on his face with only one leg to stand on, and being forced backward will cause him to fall.
But from looking up the sprawl, the defense I mentioned would be difficult to apply I think, but I am not a wrestler to know if there is a way to do it from that position.
Not quite. Locking the knees stops circulation below the knees. The cells there deplete the trapped blood of oxygen. When the knees are unlocked, the stale blood makes its way to the brain, and you pass out. Only lasts until the lungs reoxegenate the blood that was trapped.
Works on everyone. I've done it to myself.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
See this is the first I heard of even that. And I don't think it is a thing.
The legs need to move to pump blood back up. Locked knees don't really affect that.
I don't know if it's the same thing, but for some people (apparently not all), if they lock their knees while standing (to sing, to speak, etc.) they can pass out. I saw it in college in a voice class, and have heard of others' experience with it when I was coaching speakers. Maybe it's the same thing they're talking about in this thread - dunno.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
That was the impression I got. But that is just from your legs not moving. The army trick was to wiggle your toes.
You understanding of the mechanism is incorrect, as is (apparently) your understanding of how long it takes this to affect mentation.
In an upright position, blood tends to pool in the lower extremities. When walking, or even shifting your weight slowly (which is what people like the guards at Buckingham Palace are taught to do), the calf muscles help to pump the blood uphill. Given long enough, this can cause you to pass out. But I really really don't think you're going to be able to hold someones knees for anything that might even begin to resemble long enough to consider the merest possibility of causing them to even be remotely at risk of passing out.
It does work on pretty much everybody, but that isn't how. Blood flow from the lower legs doesn't stop. It does decrease, which lowers BP and perfusion of the brain. If it stopped, keeping your legs straight for too long would cause the tissues to die...
Blood returning from the lower legs CANNOT go to the brain (assuming anything remotely resembling normal human circulation...). It travels up, through through the femoral vein, then the inferior vena cava, into the right atrium, into the right ventricle, through the pulmonic valve, through the pulmonary artery, and into the lungs. Where it is oxygenated.
What you're describing is physiologically impossible for a human.
We just taught people not to lock the knees - keep them slightly flexed. I'd assume both have the same effect, somehow.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Got to move the muscles in your legs.
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