Strengthening knee ligaments

Graywalker

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they have given you exercises to do, do them, don't start doing other exercise to work your knee, that how you got into this in the first place, your not going to cure an over exercise injury by over exercising

i hate to have to say '' I told you so'' but in your thread about over exercising, but I did tell you so, let it heal first , then consider what if anything to do about it
Agree, listen to your Dr....not folks on a MA forum.
 

Alan0354

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Bodyweight squats working up to "*** to grass" low. Later with a bar. Look at some countries in the world who still take a crap in a deep squat. No problems with flexibility or weak tendons. also the position is better for your colon when pushing out your poop.
so yeah...go back to what nature intened. deep squats holding that low position . Of course the Physio is more qualified than anyone on here as far as i know. as you yanky boys say..
just my 2 cents bro
I find bodyweight squats help also. I warm up with 7 or so squats before doing kickings. Everyday when I was in shower, I squeegee the glass door by squatting all the way down. That's part of my regiment for the knee and it helps.
 

Alan0354

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Agree, listen to your Dr....not folks on a MA forum.
I find Dr and physical therapists not helpful at all. I only see doctor to get MRI or CT scan just to make sure nothing really wrong. Then I find an exercise that help. I usually find one exercise that help for different part of my body. Sports and injuries go hand in hand, point is to find exercise for any particular injury. No body knows your body better than you, they only can give you some generic exercise.

I don't want to talk too much as I am not a doctor, but that's how I roll and have been serving me well.
 

Gyakuto

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Have any of you heard of exercises specifically focused on strengthening knee ligaments? Do you believe they work? On a slightly different note, have any of you heard of someone making full/near-full recoveries from completely torn ACLs without surgery?
Anyways, wish me luck on my physio appointment tomorrow! Goodnight!
The issue with the ACL healing is its essentially avascular...they have little/no blood supply...which means cells and factors that promote healing cannot easily get to the damage and they therefore take a long time to repair themselves , if at all, and do so poorly. This is why surgical fixes are required. Another issue is that many martial artists stretch their ligaments to increase flexibility but this destabilises the associated joint and causes long term problems, eg, knee circles stretch the lateral and medial knee ligaments..dont do them!
 

_Simon_

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Another issue is that many martial artists stretch their ligaments to increase flexibility but this destabilises the associated joint and causes long term problems, eg, knee circles stretch the lateral and medial knee ligaments..dont do them!
But doing knee circles also 'activates' the tendons/ligaments/surrounding musculature too, it's by no means a passive static stretching exercise which doesn't activate nor strengthen those surrounding muscles.

I'm not convinced (yet haha) that they're not a good warmup... I don't really understand the idea that they're bad for you. (I've even heard people say knees aren't meant to rotate, but the rotations here occur at the hip joint, the knees just point in those direction and only still hinge hehe)
 

jobo

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But doing knee circles also 'activates' the tendons/ligaments/surrounding musculature too, it's by no means a passive static stretching exercise which doesn't activate nor strengthen those surrounding muscles.

I'm not convinced (yet haha) that they're not a good warmup... I don't really understand the idea that they're bad for you. (I've even heard people say knees aren't meant to rotate, but the rotations here occur at the hip joint, the knees just point in those direction and only still hinge hehe)
I'm with you Simon

ligaments dont stretch, there not at all designed to stretch, they are the bodies equivalent of steel cables, they do how ever tear and occasionally snap all together, which is usually caused by over loading them beyond what they are used to, they will lengthen rather than stretch if you work them to do so, but not so much that your knee becomes unstable

loading them sensibly, so they strenghen is a good idea, over loading so you damage them is not, not loading them at all is just as bad
 

JowGaWolf

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knee circles stretch the lateral and medial knee ligaments..dont do them!
From what I was taught knee stretches are supposed to be done in a gentle manner. I've seen people get really crazy with them and that's what causes injury to the knee. People will sometimes do the knee circles like it's a race or like they are trying to hurry up and be done with it. One of the benefit of such exercises is that it helps To strengthen the surrounding tissues that help support the knee joint.

I'm willing to bet that more people have knee problems from being overweight than from doing knee circles correctly. The majority of the people who have knee or ACL injuries probably have never done a knee circle in their life or were doing them incorrectly.

This would be the incorrect way based on how I was taught. The movement should be smooth and not extreme like this. Knees shouldn't be shouldn't look nor feel like something is snapping back into place.

 
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Alan0354

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I have enough injuries, you name it, back, neck, shoulders, knee, foot and even carpal tunnel on my right hand. My latest one is carpal tunnel because of practicing cane fighting. To every injury, I usually find one or two exercise to really help. Not all exercise that work for other people works for me ( in fact, mostly doesn't work). I find it is SO SPECIFIC I don' even dare to make suggestion. One just have to keep trying until finding one that works. For example, rotating knee is supposed to work, BUT it did nothing for me. The one exercise that help my knee is body weight squat AND slow motion front kick.
1) Brace yourself. Raise the knee.
2) Extend the foot out like doing a front kick.
3) When reaching full extension, hold the position for a second or two before lower the foot.
4) Repeat 10 time.

It likely not going to work for other people, it works for me. Nothing wrong to try and see. You just have to find the one exercise that help you.


BTW, carpal tunnel on my right hand is my current challenge, still have not find the one exercise to fix it. If anyone have suggestion, I am all ears. I find the most important thing is to have an open mind, don't judge, try it and see.
 

JowGaWolf

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BTW, carpal tunnel on my right hand is my current challenge, still have not find the one exercise to fix it.
There may not be one. My co-worker has it and had to get surgery in order to fix it. Only time will tell if it will fix it. I was developing it and I had to change how I was using my wrist. I can no longer use a mouse like I use to (I think). I use a trackball which allows me to position my hand in a way that doesn't irritate it. It's been about 2 years with no problem. I don't know if it will come back if I try to use the mouse again. I had it bad enough where it would effect my shoulder as well.

For me there was no exercise to fix it. I simply had to stop using it in a way that was causing the problem. For me it was using a mouse that was causing it. For my co-worker. He had to get surgery because it was something about how something in his hand /wrist that was putting pressure on the nerve. Maybe something shifted in his hand and didn't return to normal, and as a result cause problems in his hand.
 

Alan0354

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There may not be one. My co-worker has it and had to get surgery in order to fix it. Only time will tell if it will fix it. I was developing it and I had to change how I was using my wrist. I can no longer use a mouse like I use to (I think). I use a trackball which allows me to position my hand in a way that doesn't irritate it. It's been about 2 years with no problem. I don't know if it will come back if I try to use the mouse again. I had it bad enough where it would effect my shoulder as well.

For me there was no exercise to fix it. I simply had to stop using it in a way that was causing the problem. For me it was using a mouse that was causing it. For my co-worker. He had to get surgery because it was something about how something in his hand /wrist that was putting pressure on the nerve. Maybe something shifted in his hand and didn't return to normal, and as a result cause problems in his hand.
I had carpal tunnel surgery on my left hand, it's PAINFUL and took a long time to recover. I had to stop weight training for like 3 weeks before I dare to step back into the gym. Took a long time to gain back the strength ( half a year) and the pain lasted last 6 or 7 years before completely gone away. That's the reason I am reluctant to do the surgery on the right hand. I am practice stick fight, that really caused problem for me. Now I practice equal time with left hand so if I cannot use the right hand, I can swing with the left hand.

In my case, I got the carpal tunnel from practice Chinese Iron Palm pounding on steel ball bearings. DON'T DO THAT, it's all a LIE. I practice 3 years, it DID NOT make me hit stronger, just carpal tunnel on both hands.
 

JowGaWolf

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In my case, I got the carpal tunnel from practice Chinese Iron Palm pounding on steel ball bearings. DON'T DO THAT, it's all a LIE. I practice 3 years, it DID NOT make me hit stronger, just carpal tunnel on both hands.
Good to know. Thanks for the heads up. Other than not using that hand for stick fighting for a long time, I don't know what else to recommend.
 

Alan0354

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Good to know. Thanks for the heads up. Other than not using that hand for stick fighting for a long time, I don't know what else to recommend.
You see those Chinese movies glorifying repetitive doing the same thing over and over, that's just OCD. Those teachers kept talking about practicing iron palm 3 times a day, I only did once a day for 3 years and that's what I got in return. I can tell you with no uncertainty, I am NOT hitting any harder on the heavy bag with palm strike after all the sacrifice.

I was stupid, in the 90s after seeing UFC that the grappler shoot the striker, it was so helpless, I thought if I learn iron palm, I can hit him on the back when he shoot. What a crock of bull.
 

jobo

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You see those Chinese movies glorifying repetitive doing the same thing over and over, that's just OCD. Those teachers kept talking about practicing iron palm 3 times a day, I only did once a day for 3 years and that's what I got in return. I can tell you with no uncertainty, I am NOT hitting any harder on the heavy bag with palm strike after all the sacrifice.

I was stupid, in the 90s after seeing UFC that the grappler shoot the striker, it was so helpless, I thought if I learn iron palm, I can hit him on the back when he shoot. What a crock of bull.
it comes up fairly frequently on here with people wanting to hit very hard things or hit thems4lves with things, they seldom seem to listen that it's not a sensible thing to do

and yes endless repetitions are a quick way to repetitive strain injury, clue in the name
 

Alan0354

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it comes up fairly frequently on here with people wanting to hit very hard things or hit thems4lves with things, they seldom seem to listen that it's not a sensible thing to do

and yes endless repetitions are a quick way to repetitive strain injury, clue in the name
And you see even on youtube those monks practice iron head by using the head to hit things!!! And they wonder why they lose their minds!!!

I hate to say, I am a Chinese grew up in Hong Kong, I really have negative feelings about Chinese Kung Fu. I got exposed enough about Kung Fu and those so called masters. I learned Wing Chung a little while. I just don't trust them. They talk as if they are the greatest in the world, they sure not after I open my eyes to Mutye Thai, Krav Maga and MMA. I rather learn escrima stick fight than Chinese sword for cane. Too much BS. "Oh, I don't want to use this technique as it's too deadly!!", "I don't want to show this technique because I don't want people to steal it!!".
 

JowGaWolf

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And you see even on youtube those monks practice iron head by using the head to hit things!!! And they wonder why they lose their minds!!!

I hate to say, I am a Chinese grew up in Hong Kong, I really have negative feelings about Chinese Kung Fu. I got exposed enough about Kung Fu and those so called masters. I learned Wing Chung a little while. I just don't trust them. They talk as if they are the greatest in the world, they sure not after I open my eyes to Mutye Thai, Krav Maga and MMA. I rather learn escrima stick fight than Chinese sword for cane. Too much BS. "Oh, I don't want to use this technique as it's too deadly!!", "I don't want to show this technique because I don't want people to steal it!!".
Sorry you had such a horrible experience with Kung Fu. I don't like the "this technique is too deadly to use" excuse either. I dislike the "don't want people to steal it" excuse even more. People who say those things aren't being honest about their abilities and their martial arts system. Not everything is deadly in martial arts so to bring that up as an excuse is just pathetic.
 

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Sorry you had such a horrible experience with Kung Fu. I don't like the "this technique is too deadly to use" excuse either. I dislike the "don't want people to steal it" excuse even more. People who say those things aren't being honest about their abilities and their martial arts system. Not everything is deadly in martial arts so to bring that up as an excuse is just pathetic.
You have to hear those people saying they could beat Bruce Lee after he died at the time. I was there in 73. I am so glad Xu Zhiaodong challenge those masters in China. Go to youtube and type his name and you'll see. This is one of many:

This is not under MMA rules, or else it would end in 20 seconds. I learned some Wing Chung before!!!
 
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JowGaWolf

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You have to hear those people saying they could beat Bruce Lee after he died at the time. I was there in 73. I am so glad Xu Zhiaodong challenge those masters in China. Go to youtube and type his name and you'll see. This is one of many:

This is not under MMA rules, or else it would end in 20 seconds. I learned some Wing Chung before!!!
This is a classic example of why sparring should never be System A vs System A. Most martial arts schools fight against the same style so students are only used to fighting against the same system that they train. This becomes a big problem when fighting against another system. I train Jow Ga Kung Fu and I don't like sparring against other Jow Ga students unless they don't know how to use Jow Ga. My theory is simple. If Traditional Martial Arts is for beating people, then most likely it's going to be people who don't train under the same system. For example, what's the possibility that you will get into a street fight against someone else who knows Wing Chun? If you were to fight 10 people in the street today, then it would be unlikely that you will fight against another Wing Chun practitioner. So if that's the reality, then it's best to train to fight against the type of people you may actually get into a fight with.

I could fight 300 people from the street and there's a good possibility that none will be a Jow Ga practitioner, so if that's the reality then it doesn't make sense for me to learn how to fight against Jow Ga. I have to learn how to fight against everything else starting with the most common which is probably just a regular street brawler.

If a martial arts master stated he didn't want other to know how the system works because then they will analyze it and then learn how to defeat it, then that makes sense to me. Even the old Kung Fu movies took that approach. BJJ used to take down tons of strikers, but a more MMA fighters become familiar with BJJ, the take downs don't come as easily as they used to. Fighters learned how to escape them and remain on their feet. When BJJ was new, very few knew how to deal with that. So not wanting to show it in fear that someone will learn how to defeat it is a legitimate reason, but it's not a good one as it limits the development of a system. When someone figures out your ability, then you just have to get better at what you do, which will in turn help develop the system into something better.

BJJ figured out strike and in return MMA Strikers got better with striking and better with escaping BJJ. MMA striking is a lot better and more diverse than it was in the first MMA. This would not have happened if it was only "System A vs System A" Unfortunately there's a lot of Kung Fu practitioners that don't take this approach.
 

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This is a classic example of why sparring should never be System A vs System A. Most martial arts schools fight against the same style so students are only used to fighting against the same system that they train. This becomes a big problem when fighting against another system. I train Jow Ga Kung Fu and I don't like sparring against other Jow Ga students unless they don't know how to use Jow Ga. My theory is simple. If Traditional Martial Arts is for beating people, then most likely it's going to be people who don't train under the same system. For example, what's the possibility that you will get into a street fight against someone else who knows Wing Chun? If you were to fight 10 people in the street today, then it would be unlikely that you will fight against another Wing Chun practitioner. So if that's the reality, then it's best to train to fight against the type of people you may actually get into a fight with.

I could fight 300 people from the street and there's a good possibility that none will be a Jow Ga practitioner, so if that's the reality then it doesn't make sense for me to learn how to fight against Jow Ga. I have to learn how to fight against everything else starting with the most common which is probably just a regular street brawler.

If a martial arts master stated he didn't want other to know how the system works because then they will analyze it and then learn how to defeat it, then that makes sense to me. Even the old Kung Fu movies took that approach. BJJ used to take down tons of strikers, but a more MMA fighters become familiar with BJJ, the take downs don't come as easily as they used to. Fighters learned how to escape them and remain on their feet. When BJJ was new, very few knew how to deal with that. So not wanting to show it in fear that someone will learn how to defeat it is a legitimate reason, but it's not a good one as it limits the development of a system. When someone figures out your ability, then you just have to get better at what you do, which will in turn help develop the system into something better.

BJJ figured out strike and in return MMA Strikers got better with striking and better with escaping BJJ. MMA striking is a lot better and more diverse than it was in the first MMA. This would not have happened if it was only "System A vs System A" Unfortunately there's a lot of Kung Fu practitioners that don't take this approach.
yes, but you unlikely in 300 0people to find many who are trained at all,

so from a pragmatic approach it's a waste of time putting much effort in to adapting your kung fu to fight them

the first question should be, can I beat untrained people, onlyvwhen the answer to that is affirmative is it worth considering the small % who are trained

there is an ongoing issue bordering on paranoia that there are a considerable number of highly trained street fighters waiting to ambush you,

there does seem however a large n8mber of people who own a home weight set and a punch bag, its these people who you need to concern yourself with, as not only are there a lit more of them, they also seem to be the type of peole who like to throw their weight around, also allowing that quite a few will be on steroids
 
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JowGaWolf

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so from a pragmatic approach it's a waste of time putting much effort in to adapting your kung fu to fight them
Untrained people tend to fight the same way regardless of how many you go against, so it's not like you are doing 300 specific configurations. However, what a TMA practitioners needs to learn how to deal with attacks that don't look like the TMA system that they train. So wild untrained punches qualify, big haymakers, and common jabs and untrained grappling all count.

the first question should be, can I beat untrained people,
I can beat an untrained person without TMA. Most people can with that generic kickboxing that usually comes from those who train TMA. The question I usually ask is can a person use their TMA to fight. From my experience, depending on what you train. The first couple of times should be difficult. The untrained person is going to attack different from what is done in class. The more complex the system say Tai Chi, the more difficult it's going to be.

Me learning how to use Jow Ga against an untrained person was very difficult. I kept doing things to "Try to make Jow Ga work" which was messing up the techniques. I was forcing techniques to work in attacks that they weren't meant for. I was too worried about getting hit and didn't follow through. Then one day I said I was going to do the technique as trained and will eat a punch if that's what it takes. That's when things changed and I began to actually learn how to use Jow Ga. But before that I was pure C.R.A.P. with Jow Ga. At that point beating an untrained person with Jow Ga isn't going to happen. I think this is true with most TMA which is why we see that generic kick boxing so often. 500 techniques and generic is what we often see.

The only way to learn is to eat a few punches and to figure out how to deal with strikes that you don't get in class. Trusting the technique is a must, just like you can't half guess a jab, you can't half guess the striking technique that you are training. Like everything else you just have to try until you get it right. After this point a person should be able to beat untrained and some trained (beginner /intermediate) sparring partners depending on the system they train. Most people won't have the luxury of sparring against an untrained opponent so this learning process takes longer. I never had that luxury, even when I was 8, there was always someone in the class who was trained.

there is an ongoing issue bordering on paranoia that there are a considerable number of highly trained street fighters waiting to ambush you,
I think there are a much higher number of people that have been trained. Not sure "highly trained" is consistent in quality and I don't think any of these have a desire to be street fighters. But I guess that's part of keeping that Street Credit shiny.
 

Alan0354

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This is a classic example of why sparring should never be System A vs System A. Most martial arts schools fight against the same style so students are only used to fighting against the same system that they train. This becomes a big problem when fighting against another system. I train Jow Ga Kung Fu and I don't like sparring against other Jow Ga students unless they don't know how to use Jow Ga. My theory is simple. If Traditional Martial Arts is for beating people, then most likely it's going to be people who don't train under the same system. For example, what's the possibility that you will get into a street fight against someone else who knows Wing Chun? If you were to fight 10 people in the street today, then it would be unlikely that you will fight against another Wing Chun practitioner. So if that's the reality, then it's best to train to fight against the type of people you may actually get into a fight with.

I could fight 300 people from the street and there's a good possibility that none will be a Jow Ga practitioner, so if that's the reality then it doesn't make sense for me to learn how to fight against Jow Ga. I have to learn how to fight against everything else starting with the most common which is probably just a regular street brawler.

If a martial arts master stated he didn't want other to know how the system works because then they will analyze it and then learn how to defeat it, then that makes sense to me. Even the old Kung Fu movies took that approach. BJJ used to take down tons of strikers, but a more MMA fighters become familiar with BJJ, the take downs don't come as easily as they used to. Fighters learned how to escape them and remain on their feet. When BJJ was new, very few knew how to deal with that. So not wanting to show it in fear that someone will learn how to defeat it is a legitimate reason, but it's not a good one as it limits the development of a system. When someone figures out your ability, then you just have to get better at what you do, which will in turn help develop the system into something better.

BJJ figured out strike and in return MMA Strikers got better with striking and better with escaping BJJ. MMA striking is a lot better and more diverse than it was in the first MMA. This would not have happened if it was only "System A vs System A" Unfortunately there's a lot of Kung Fu practitioners that don't take this approach.
That's a good analysis. Never thought of this way.

This is 21st century, people record and analyze it and learn. Things evolve very fast. If any style keep in isolation, they never improve and they become obsoleted. I still say there is a lot of hot air in Kung Fu circle. Maybe it's because I live in Hong Kong, I got to hear all the BS, maybe if I were living in the other part of the world, they might be the same. All in all, want to brag, get into the Octagon, you win, you can brag. UFC is not perfect, but it's the closest.
 

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