Pressure Points - General Knowledge

[RRouuselot]

ohh........ no beef Rouuselot..... fair commnts I guess.I'm a mommy and a teacher though so we types tend to use a little more patience.

cheers anyway

Blooming Lotus

Patience........Right....:lol:........Which is why you shot me a nasty comment and "negative ding" before I even answered your post....check the times of the posts against the time of the "ding".
Either way you seemed pretty eager and [font=&quot]impatient[/font] to jump right in and start name calling what was it again……oh yeah….you called me ……."Mr. Registered one !!!”

Here is the comment from the "ding"

Supremist and elitists bug me!!! More when it comes in the same package!! Blooming Lotus 11-30-2004 09:18 AM

 

[Blooming Lotus]

I'm not indulging in this with you at other members expense.........This isn't the place to do this, so if you must, pm me if you like..........



for crimineys !!!........ that was an olive branch come apology and lol Rouuselot......... let it go ha?? Either way..you know where the icons are. Keep it off the threads though.

cheers

Blooming Lotus

 

[RRouuselot]

I'm not indulging in this with you at other members expense.........This isn't the place to do this, so if you must, pm me if you like..........

Uh.....yeah.... that's kind of what YOU should have done since you were the one that opened this can of worms up in the first place. You might have tried PMing me and asking me if I was talking about you in the first place instead of of stoopping to the level of calling someone names......

So let's stay on topic..........

1) Studied and used quite a bit of 2) cavity striking myself and on other boards alot of folks think it's dubious in effectiveness because on different ppl, 3) different points seem to " not work". 4) The varying ideas of what quantifies a tsun, pending who you talk to, would probably explain it though. Cheers

1)For how long and from whom? How did you use it? In practice? Real life? I mean by the sound of your post your implying that you have quite a bit of knowledge…..

2)Cavity striking as in…….??? Which cavities are you talking about? How did you strike them? Fist? Flat hand? How?

3)Really? Why? Could it be you didn’t strike correctly and not that it doesn’t work on some people?

4)Which is the very reason why I said it is better to get training from an accredited source rather than these boards? You see when you have proper qualified instruction it is easier to locate points.

 

[KenpoTess]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

~Tess
-MT S. Moderator-

 

[Cruentus]

Legit questions to steer things in a more positive direction...

1. What des TCM stand for... and yes, I AM that retarded.

2. This one is for you Robert. Does Oyata have any instructors in MI.? Also how liberal is GM Oyata in regards to cross-training? In other words, is he very traditional in that he will only teach pressure point aspects to loyal and trusted students in his system, or would he openly teach someone aspects who wasn't interested in being ranked in his system?

3. What are some good sources that one could draw from to learn pressure point healing/fighting. And I understand that obviously, to get detailed info one needs a competent instructor, but who are these instructors. What are some good academic resources as well?

 

[RRouuselot]

Legit questions to steer things in a more positive direction...

A) 1. What des TCM stand for... and yes, I AM that retarded.

B) 2. This one is for you Robert. Does Oyata have any instructors in MI.? C) Also how liberal is GM Oyata in regards to cross-training? D) In other words, is he very traditional in that he will only teach pressure point aspects to loyal and trusted students in his system, or would he openly teach someone aspects who wasn't interested in being ranked in his system?

E) 3. What are some good sources that one could draw from to learn pressure point healing/fighting. And I understand that obviously, to get detailed info one needs a competent instructor, but who are these instructors. What are some good academic resources as well?

A)[font=&quot] [/font]Traditional Chinese Medicine

B)[font=&quot] [/font]I’m sorry what does MI stand for?

C)[font=&quot] [/font]Mr. Oyata encourages his students to find out all they can about how the body works, strong points, weak points, etc.

D)[font=&quot] [/font]Mr. Oyata’s instruction is sometimes not so easy to follow. He is not the type of person to just say “this is ABCDEF” and so on……he leads you and expects effort on your part to learn what he is talking about. In that respect he teaches the way he was taught. A lot of research and self discovery are required. He doesn’t spoon feed his students…..he gives a LOT of information but only if you pay attention. As far as teaching outside people……well he doesn’t show or explain very much to people he doesn’t know for the simple fact that he doesn’t know what some people will do with that information. He feels that if you harm someone with that information it his fault.

E)[font=&quot] [/font]I am at my office PC now and don’t have that info on here. I will post it when I dig it off my other PC at home. There is actually one good book written by my Chinese mentor while in was studying in Taiwan. He was one of my instructors for TCM and is a very skilled Acupuncturist and Herbalist. The book is on Taichi and how it relates to TCM, kyusho and so on. Unfortunately it is not written in English.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

MI is the state of Michigan

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Uh.....yeah.... that's kind of what YOU should have done since you were the one that opened this can of worms up in the first place. You might have tried PMing me and asking me if I was talking about you in the first place instead of of stoopping to the level of calling someone names......

So let's stay on topic..........

1)For how long and from whom? How did you use it? In practice? Real life? I mean by the sound of your post your implying that you have quite a bit of knowledge…..

2)Cavity striking as in…….??? Which cavities are you talking about? How did you strike them? Fist? Flat hand? How?

3)Really? Why? Could it be you didn’t strike correctly and not that it doesn’t work on some people?

4)Which is the very reason why I said it is better to get training from an accredited source rather than these boards? You see when you have proper qualified instruction it is easier to locate points.

I've been studying qigong for about 15 yrs and have taught for about 13. I've had alot of contact with tcm practioners and varied studes over that time so it's virtually impossible to list them all. I did begin my dim mak ( pressure point striking ) under Master ( DR.) Poe and have some great vast piles of rescources from Earle Montaigue. In China almost everyone uses tcm principals daily throughout their entire general living as we apply western medicine here. So yah, I would consider myself quite more knowledgable than average, but not having a degree, and maybe not picking one up for a yr a so down the track, coupled with one in western med science, I guess at the moment that's the extent of it.

I have argued for pressure striking and tcm principals fairly heartily on other boards and it often came back to sceptics claims that different points don't work on different ppl, but then even in this thread, we have seen how different ppl have been measuring a tsun and obviously that changes the whole "apparent " effectiveness , being that likely pending where you're getting your information, you may or may not even be hitting a point at all and scratching your head in wonderment of why it didn't work, when a slight cross reference with ppl practicing and applying with different measurements for example would erradicate doubts and promote more accurate and subsequentially effective practice .
I use my dim mak daily, in both self healing , study and superimposed to numerous styles as my forte / speciality art. Which all in all is why I like to hear what other ppl know and how they're practicing themselves, despite the correctness of what they're applying. The person who thinks he/she has nothing to learn from any one individual is often just sadly lacking humility and clarity. And know , even you have learnt that some ppl are meassuring differently so if you ever meet this argument of ineffectiveness in the future, you may have a leg ( or another ) to argue with and keep those real facts spreading .
Sorry Rouuse, but I appreciate that myself, and choice to or not is really up to you.

Blooming Lotus

 

[RRouuselot]

I've been studying qigong for about 15 yrs and have taught for about 13. I've had alot of contact with tcm practioners and varied studes over that time so it's virtually impossible to list them all. I did begin my dim mak ( pressure point striking ) under Master ( DR.) Poe and have some great vast piles of rescources from Earle Montaigue. 1) In China almost everyone uses tcm principals daily throughout their entire general living as we apply western medicine here. So yah, I would consider myself quite more knowledgable than average, but not having a degree, and maybe not picking one up for a yr a so down the track, coupled with one in western med science, I guess at the moment that's the extent of it.

2) I have argued for pressure striking and tcm principals fairly heartily on other boards and it often came back to sceptics claims that different points don't work on different ppl, but then even in this thread, we have seen how different ppl have been measuring a tsun and obviously that changes the whole "apparent " effectiveness , being that likely pending where you're getting your information, you may or may not even be hitting a point at all and scratching your head in wonderment of why it didn't work, when a slight cross reference with ppl practicing and applying with different measurements for example would erradicate doubts and promote more accurate and subsequentially effective practice .
I use my dim mak daily, in both self healing , study and superimposed to numerous styles as my forte / speciality art. Which all in all is why I like to hear what other ppl know and how they're practicing themselves, despite the correctness of what they're applying.

3) The person who thinks he/she has nothing to learn from any one individual is often just sadly lacking humility and clarity. And know , even you have learnt that some ppl are meassuring differently so if you ever meet this argument of ineffectiveness in the future, you may have a leg ( or another ) to argue with and keep those real facts spreading .
Sorry Rouuse, but I appreciate that myself, and choice to or not is really up to you.

Blooming Lotus

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Sounds if you could pick up some qualifications rather easily, and I highly recommend you to.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Sorry I must have missed your posts on other boards. Personally I love it when there is someone in the same room that says pressure points don’t hurt me. It’s funny to see their reaction when they are proven otherwise. As for the measuring thing…..well as I have said before, and often to deaf ears, the pressure point areas used in fighting are rather large as compared to the actual points used in healing. For fighting the areas can be about the size of ping-pong ball or smaller, depends on the body part and so on. Therefore measuring using some sort of tsun will not really be useful…….acupuncture points are just to small to hit when you are going full tilt boogy in a real fight. Another consideration why some people say pps don’t work on them is I often see certain practitioners striking at either incorrect angles or with an incorrect strike (fist, open hand, etc)

3)[font=&quot] [/font]I think you will find that I am quite open to others opinions, however, as many on MT can attest, I don’t suffer fools long and rarely if ever tolerate BS artists. So when someone is spouting what I know to be crap I avoid stepping in it and then advise others to avoid it as well.

 

[RRouuselot]

MI is the state of Michigan

I must of had a brain fart........thanks

 

[Blooming Lotus]

1)Sounds if you could pick up some qualifications rather easily, and I highly recommend you to.


Therefore measuring using some sort of tsun will not really be useful…….acupuncture points are just to small to hit when you are going full tilt boogy in a real fight. Another consideration why some people say pps don’t work on them is I often see certain practitioners striking at either incorrect angles or with an incorrect strike (fist, open hand, etc)
.

1) getting there any moment. About to move to thailand in a few months so maybe I'll do it there.

2) Some good points there, but really in answer to both of those , there are some good points fairly easily accessable like your cvs and ........really from all meridians there are some good points open always. , but I guess the key is what style/s you're using them with. I guess that's why I train the way I do with different styles in conjunction and a big reason for my cross training of various styles .

And yourself??? Do you have other arts you use them with?? And what pressure point style are you getting your base from ?? It is so hard to find a fellow practioner who actually knows what they're talking about outside of schools I no longer really attend for travel and other priorities ( like getting some more of those other arts under my belt) , so cheers for the chat. Extremely cool stuff. And who says the learning stops when you leave your master??

Blooming Lotus

 

[Cruentus]

TCM...that's what I thought it meant but I'm sitting here thinking that if I am wrong, then boy am I gonna look stupid here at some point. :ultracool

Anyhow, thank you for clarifying about Mr. Oyata...he seems like a good and reasonably fair instructor. Any instructor references in Michigan (apologies for being egocentric with MI) that you have or good sources that I can read (preferably in English) would be appreciated. Even if I don't become a die hard student (as I already am pretty busy with my other arts), I at least like to have good instructors on my list for referals.

It's just that there for some reason the subject of pressure points brings forth so much bunk and B.S. in the martial arts that it makes me want to cringe.

Side note: when people say pp don't work on them, it's usually because some hack job made some outlandish claim, then tried something which failed miserably. Heck, I couldn't tell you which point will make you fart blood three days later even if it happened to me, but I can say that I know that it ain't so good to be hit in certian places. Saying that pp don't work is like saying joint locks or throws don't work, IMHO. Which, by the way, most of these things don't work if one is trying them on my cyborg arm...but that is another conversation... lol

Anywhooo...Robert...what do you think of Erle Montaigue (sp)? Legit or BullS.?

Paul

 

[RRouuselot]

1)

1) Some good points there, but really in answer to both of those , there are some good points fairly easily accessable like your cvs and ........really from all meridians there are some good points open always. ,

2) but I guess the key is what style/s you're using them with. I guess that's why I train the way I do with different styles in conjunction and a big reason for my cross training of various styles .

3) And yourself??? Do you have other arts you use them with??

4) And what pressure point style are you getting your base from ?? ………
Blooming Lotus

1)I think you may have misunderstood my statement. What I was saying is that many points are too small and too close together to say “I am going to it this exact point” when you are in real situation. Dillman flunkies often quote they are hitting a certain point on the neck when they are doing their “neck whacks”. In actual fact that hit around 5 different points. The first warning sign of some that is full of “pressure point BS” is when they claim they are hitting exactly a certain acupuncture point; most parts of the human hand are too large to hit only a single point and no other spot. Many acupuncture points are not easy to find even when you have the luxury of time on your side.

2)Do you mean style as in what MA style? If it is then that is incorrect. The human body makes no distinction when struck with a karate punch or a wing tsun punch. Before you mentioned something about you practice cavity strikes and so on…..you never elaborated……care to?

3)I am not sure what you are trying to ask here as well…..do you mean healing arts as opposed to fighting arts? Or do you mean different MAs? If you are refereeing to MAs then see answer 2).

4)I have never heard of different pressure point “styles”…pressure points are just pressure points...they know no difference between "styles"...…I understand that there are different “theories” associated with different MA styles but those are only theories.



No disrespect intended but the questions you ask and the content of what you say make me seriously question your understanding of and training in TCM and pressure points as the relate to fighting arts.

 

[RRouuselot]

1) Any instructor references in Michigan (apologies for being egocentric with MI) that you have or good sources that I can read (preferably in English) would be appreciated. Even if I don't become a die hard student (as I already am pretty busy with my other arts), I at least like to have good instructors on my list for referals.

2) It's just that there for some reason the subject of pressure points brings forth so much bunk and B.S. in the martial arts that it makes me want to cringe.

3) Side note: when people say pp don't work on them, it's usually because some hack job made some outlandish claim, then tried something which failed miserably. Heck, I couldn't tell you which point will make you fart blood three days later even if it happened to me, but I can say that I know that it ain't so good to be hit in certian places. Saying that pp don't work is like saying joint locks or throws don't work, IMHO. Which, by the way, most of these things don't work if one is trying them on my cyborg arm...but that is another conversation... lol

4) Anywhooo...Robert...what do you think of Erle Montaigue (sp)? Legit or BullS.?

Paul

1)I will look into it and let you know.

2)Makes me cringe too. There are too many “martial marketers” out there using “kyusho” and pressure points as some sort of gimmick to get people into their school or seminars. Truth be known most of them don't know squat and half the time just parrott what they hear from other people. They throw out a few terms and concepts that most folks are clueless as to whether they are right or wrong but it makes them sound as if they know what the hell they are talking about. There are a few on MT as well.

3)That’s funny! I agree.

4)I don’t know much about him. I have heard both sides of the coin about him from various folks though. Some say his training in China was extremely minimal at best. I don’t know. Unlike Dillman who I have seen, I couldn’t comment really give a good comment on what his skills are until I have seen what he does.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

1)I think you may have misunderstood my statement. What I was saying is that many points are too small and too close together to say “I am going to it this exact point” when you are in real situation. Dillman flunkies often quote they are hitting a certain point on the neck when they are doing their “neck whacks”. In actual fact that hit around 5 different points. The first warning sign of some that is full of “pressure point BS” is when they claim they are hitting exactly a certain acupuncture point; most parts of the human hand are too large to hit only a single point and no other spot. Many acupuncture points are not easy to find even when you have the luxury of time on your side.

2)Do you mean style as in what MA style? If it is then that is incorrect. The human body makes no distinction when struck with a karate punch or a wing tsun punch. Before you mentioned something about you practice cavity strikes and so on…..you never elaborated……care to?

3)I am not sure what you are trying to ask here as well…..do you mean healing arts as opposed to fighting arts? Or do you mean different MAs? If you are refereeing to MAs then see answer 2).

4)I have never heard of different pressure point “styles”…pressure points are just pressure points...they know no difference between "styles"...…I understand that there are different “theories” associated with different MA styles but those are only theories.



No disrespect intended but the questions you ask and the content of what you say make me seriously question your understanding of and training in TCM and pressure points as the relate to fighting arts.

firstly Dillman and Earle both share several web sites, so go figure ??!!

Anyway to address your comments, you're right, but obviously thee hands have smaller points and are therefore less accessable in tight spots. Most of us wouldn't really try it, though I have personally used some of these successfully in defence attacks , though it wasn't full heat so much as chin na style restraint. For a good example though cv 17 is a point that wqhen striking with say an open palm and being it has so many surrounding points you might accidently hit if you were a bad shot or didn't have time/ space whatever, it's a good option. And same for many. ........ ( though feet points are small because of app type, remarkabley much easier to land).
I guess the skill of being able to "slow " the game ( through locks, holds, takedowns and joint manipulation etc) in a fight, is a good tool to develope.

2. The reason the style makes a diffence is because of the different movement flows and strike direction options and how those two things interact together and are applied to a "form" ( as freestyle or impromptu as that may be) and where the points correspond with the sets you perform. I can't be any clearer than that, so if you don't understand my point, I guess I'll just bow out.

3. There are many styles that include pressure points already but use diffrent body movement concepts to access them. THen again, there are many that don't and this is where creative freestyle shadow boxing the non-incliuding style and adapting their forms / apps and flows with the various balance and rooting styles to include pressure points really does me a great service. Again, as much information as I'm going into without some sort of acknowledgement I'm being understood or it's just going to hurt my head and likely waste both of our time.

Cheers anyway

Blooming Lotus

 

[RRouuselot]

1) firstly Dillman and Earle both share several web sites, so go figure ??!!

2) Anyway to address your comments, you're right, but obviously thee hands have smaller points and are therefore less accessable in tight spots.


3) The reason the style makes a diffence is because of the different movement flows and strike direction options and how those two things interact together and are applied to a "form" ( as freestyle or impromptu as that may be) and where the points correspond with the sets you perform. I can't be any clearer than that, so if you don't understand my point, I guess I'll just bow out.

4) There are many styles that include pressure points already but use diffrent body movement concepts to access them. THen again, there are many that don't and this is where creative freestyle shadow boxing the non-incliuding style (what the heck are you going on about here?) and adapting their forms / apps and flows with the various balance and rooting styles to include pressure points really does me a great service.

5) Again, as much information as I'm going into without some sort of acknowledgement I'm being understood or it's just going to hurt my head and likely waste both of our time.

Cheers anyway

Blooming Lotus

1)Last I heard they hated each other…………maybe they kissed and made up.

2)Uh?? You got what I said totally bassakwards I think you need to slow down and re-read my posts….I never said points on the hands but rather the points the hand is striking.

3)Again it would seem my point was misunderstood. “The reason the style makes a diffence is because of the different movement flows and strike direction options”???? The “style" makes no difference, the targeted “point” and location on the body pretty much dictates how it is struck. For example: The area around the point shanglian is not practical to strike unless it is in motion and due to the bio mechanics of the human body the most effective way is to strike towards the body instead of across it. Another example might be the area around the point kufang which due to it’s location and the make up of the muscle fiber around it reacts best when struck in an inward and downward motion.

As I said before….The human body makes no distinction when struck with a karate punch or a wing tsun punch. Before you mentioned something about you practice cavity strikes and so on…..you never elaborated……care to?

4) You said there are “pressure point styles” but fail to give any examples when asked. I seriously think you need to read my posts a lot better before you reply to them.

5)Well between your spelling mistakes and poor grammar it is not exactly easy to decipher your point





The more I read your posts the more I see how really un-trained you are. Every time I call you bluff and ask you to throw down some clarification of your statements and theories you respond with vague gibberish.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

In No.3 of your reply, I'm not talking about one strike to one point , I'm talking about several srtikes to several points in a combo and the way different styles promote access to and setup of them and flow to which particular combination you might use and with what type of technique.


on number 4. back at you okay. I thought I mentioned both chin na and wing chun to begin with, then you've got ng chor and wuchu and southern eagle claw, some western military styles and the list goes on. Many martial arts have them, but alot of systems have them, they just omit they acknowledgement and teaching.

It might help Rouuselot if you told us how you yourself are training and how long you've been training and maybe even what styles you've rained. We can do the math ourselves.

on no.5 See you've done some reading at kfm forum. Obviously grammar and typing skills ( particularly on a sunday over the festive / party season ) is a great basis for complaint. Try to stay on track with the discussion if you don't mind , otherwise I'm just not interested in discussing it.


Blooming Lotus

 

[tshadowchaser]

I believe Mr. Rouuselot has stated befor that he has been a student of Mr. Oyata for 20 + years. He also has a extensive training in TCM

 

[RRouuselot]

1) on number 4. back at you okay. I thought I mentioned both chin na and wing chun to begin with, then you've got ng chor and wuchu and southern eagle claw, some western military styles and the list goes on. Many martial arts have them, but alot of systems have them, they just omit they acknowledgement and teaching.

2) It might help Rouuselot if you told us how you yourself are training and how long you've been training and maybe even what styles you've rained. We can do the math ourselves.

3) on no.5 See you've done some reading at kfm forum. Obviously grammar and typing skills ( particularly on a sunday over the festive / party season ) is a great basis for complaint. Try to stay on track with the discussion if you don't mind , otherwise I'm just not interested in discussing it.


Blooming Lotus

1)Those are martial arts styles that incorporate the use of pressure points and not “pressure point styles”.


2)You have just employed a common tactic used by people on boards when they are asked questions about their lack of training or have been called out about a particular aspect of their training. If you want to know about my training you can read my profile, my posts, the post above this one etc…

Are you looking for a resume?
1985~1988 Taipei, Taiwan: Studied Traditional Chinese Medicine (Acupuncture, Moxibustion, Herbal Remedies, ChiKung)
1987 Beijing, China: Did an internship at Beijing Medical Institute in Traditional Chinese Medicine specializing in acupuncture techniques for anesthesia.
1990~1994 Yokohama, Japan: Served as a student/teacher for Traditional Chinese Medicine at Yokohama Ryujutsu Gakuin.

Language Training:
7 years studying Mandarin Chinese- 3 years in Taiwan- level: fluent
Japanese- scored a “2+” (fluent to native speaker) on the D.L.P.T. (Defense Department Language Proficiency Test-US Gov.)
English- a work in progress-

Martial Arts:
25+ years studying in Oyata Seiyu’s Assoc. (Okinawa karate and kobudo)- his specialty- kyusho, atemi, tuite, kata bunkai.
Served as an Official Ref/Judge for Karate tournaments in the US and Japan.

Instructor of Okinawa karate and kobudo in Japan for over 16 years – in that time have taught all walks of life Japanese Secret Service Members , was requested by the US Army Garrison Commander in Japan to teach various units hand to hand combat which include but are not limited to Military Police and CID (Criminal Investigation Division…the Army’s version of the FBI)

Other arts studied: TaiChi, Chikung, Shingyi, Judo, Katori Shinto Ryu, Kyudo, etc….

3)I have no idea what “kfm” is. How am I to “stay on track” when I have to decipher drunken posts? Why don’t you try posting when you are not all “juiced up”….If you are not interested in talking about this it’s fine with me. It’s not like you are exactly extolling vast amounts of knowledge or anything. About all I have learned from you is profess to have sort of in depth knowledge on pressure points and TCM but in actual fact do not. This is based on you’re the questions you have asked and comments you make in your posts regarding training and your inability to have an in depth discussion on both pressure points and TCM.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

I have just read you're profile and it's a shame you have the attitude you do. I'd like to think personally that no matter how much I knew I'd still have room to grow and could find value in others. To be clear, when I typed that last post, I hadn't had a drop of anything but juice and water, but jump to all the conclusions you must.



Anyway Rouuse, obviously now just wasting time on this coversation so happy chatting on it.



Blooming Lotus