Practicing Traditional Taekwondo in a WTF Sport Taekwondo Dojang

[Kevin M McGuire]

Hello,

I train in a modern sports oriented WT/WTF dojang, but my personal interest is more in Traditional Taekwondo as it was practiced by the original 9 Kwans before the unification. We do include one-step sparring and forms, plus my instructor lets me spar using traditional techniques outside either the Olympic or AAU Point Sparring rule set, such as knuckle punches, knife hand, spear hand, etc. These three things do a pretty good job of keeping it old school, imho, but I'm curious to see if anyone else has any further suggestions, or has been in the same situation and how they dealt with it.

Thank you.

 

[dvcochran]

Hello,

I train in a modern sports oriented WT/WTF dojang, but my personal interest is more in Traditional Taekwondo as it was practiced by the original 9 Kwans before the unification. We do include one-step sparring and forms, plus my instructor lets me spar using traditional techniques outside either the Olympic or AAU Point Sparring rule set, such as knuckle punches, knife hand, spear hand, etc. These three things do a pretty good job of keeping it old school, imho, but I'm curious to see if anyone else has any further suggestions, or has been in the same situation and how they dealt with it.

Thank you.

Welcome to the forum. I am not certain what your question is. As it pertains to sparring, are you allowed to punch the face at your WT(F) dojang? That is the primary difference from my experience. I assume you learn only the Taeguek poomsae? You don't mention your rank but the Kukkiwon black belt forms are very wide spread beyond just WTF schools so there should be some overlap. I think the greatest difference you may see is in decorum and being traditional. I was very involved in Olympic and AAU sparring in the late 80's & 90's and saw a quick "slide" in traditionalism in that time. I have seen the WT and Kukkiwon try to wrangle that in quite a bit but it is still far from traditional when you get away from true Korean lineage and instruction. Korea has a strong connection to TKD but it is a very politically driven climate that unfortunately spills over into the Martial Art.

 

[Kevin M McGuire]

Welcome to the forum. I am not certain what your question is. As it pertains to sparring, are you allowed to punch the face at your WT(F) dojang? That is the primary difference from my experience. I assume you learn only the Taeguek poomsae? You don't mention your rank but the Kukkiwon black belt forms are very wide spread beyond just WTF schools so there should be some overlap. I think the greatest difference you may see is in decorum and being traditional. I was very involved in Olympic and AAU sparring in the late 80's & 90's and saw a quick "slide" in traditionalism in that time. I have seen the WT and Kukkiwon try to wrangle that in quite a bit but it is still far from traditional when you get away from true Korean lineage and instruction. Korea has a strong connection to TKD but it is a very politically driven climate that unfortunately spills over into the Martial Art.

Thanks for answering. My question is how can I bring more traditional aspects of Taekwondo into my personal practice, given that I am at a more modern sports oriented dojang. As that relates to the sparring, my school does Olympic style with no punching to the face, although my instructor lets me and another student practice point sparring, which does at least allow punching to the head (but not face), and add in traditional strikes (knuckle punch, ridge hand, etc.), so that is one way I am bringing in a "traditional" aspect of the art that actually goes beyond styles that are commonly viewed as being more traditional than WTF, such as ITF and MDK, based on what I've seen of those styles on Youtube. We also do one-step sparring and forms, and those are traditional training methods, so between them and my modified sparring, I am training three things that are old school. .

I would like to know if anyone has any other suggestions I can add in to train more traditionally. One thing I have already thought of is the fact that apparently Kukkiwon TKD does not have a specific self defense curriculum, the way ITF and MDK do. We do Hapkido at my school, and I love that, but I would like to see the students who only take the Taekwondo classes get to train self defense as well. Plus the Hapkido seems to put joint manipulation first, with striking added in at the end of a technique (which I like, don't get me wrong), whereas the self defense I've seen in videos from ITF and MDK stylists seem to be a bit more focused on striking as the primary objective, and I would like to practice those sorts of self defense techniques as well, so I am going to ask my instructor about adding a self defense section to our TKD syllabus. I'd still like to hear if anyone else has any ideas.

Thanks.

 

[Kevin M McGuire]

Thanks for answering. My question is how can I bring more traditional aspects of Taekwondo into my personal practice, given that I am at a more modern sports oriented dojang. As that relates to the sparring, my school does Olympic style with no punching to the face, although my instructor lets me and another student practice point sparring, which does at least allow punching to the head (but not face), and add in traditional strikes (knuckle punch, ridge hand, etc.), so that is one way I am bringing in a "traditional" aspect of the art that actually goes beyond styles that are commonly viewed as being more traditional than WTF, such as ITF and MDK, based on what I've seen of those styles on Youtube. We also do one-step sparring and forms, and those are traditional training methods, so between them and my modified sparring, I am training three things that are old school. .

I would like to know if anyone has any other suggestions I can add in to train more traditionally. One thing I have already thought of is the fact that apparently Kukkiwon TKD does not have a specific self defense curriculum, the way ITF and MDK do. We do Hapkido at my school, and I love that, but I would like to see the students who only take the Taekwondo classes get to train self defense as well. Plus the Hapkido seems to put joint manipulation first, with striking added in at the end of a technique (which I like, don't get me wrong), whereas the self defense I've seen in videos from ITF and MDK stylists seem to be a bit more focused on striking as the primary objective, and I would like to practice those sorts of self defense techniques as well, so I am going to ask my instructor about adding a self defense section to our TKD syllabus. I'd still like to hear if anyone else has any ideas.

Thanks.

I just discovered on the World Taekwondo Masters Union (the Kukkiwon representative for the United States) that the Kukkiwon is presently working on an official self defense curriculum. I also remember reading on one of the Taekwondo forums that for the last 2 years the Kukkiwon Instructors Course has included a self defense module, so I am going to ask my instructor about us adding that into our school curriculum. I'm putting that out there in case anyone else is interested in pursuing that for their dojang.

 

[Flying Crane]

It seems to me that if your school is not teaching what you are interested in, you need to find a different school. I doubt you will be able to cobble together various elements on your own to make it on par with what you would learn in a school with a traditional approach.

You won’t be able to buy a Ford at a Chevy dealership.

 

[DaveB]

As I understand things the ideas that underpinned older TKD practice were things like:

1. Using kicks to break bones.
2. Using punches to set up kicks (including things like aiming to break the blocking arm).
3. Using snapping kicks like jabs and thrust kicks like crosses.
4. Using the bones or small striking areas (like the heel, foot ball and ankle bone) to impact vital points, rather than broader foot pads.

So from this we can surmise a focus on Speed, Power and Precision and Distancing.

In training then they probably did much more strength work. My WTF training was almost purely speed based. They would probably made more use of weights.

Obviously more hands but also more conditioning to toughen fingers and grip strength for your spear hands etc.

More boxing combinations, especially on a heavy bag so you can practice natural flow into anx out of kicks.
Some trapping/joint manipulation to make things like spear hand strikes happen.

All kicks should use breaking technique which means more toughening toes, ankles and knees. So squats, lunges, farmers walking.

In sparring, minimise time on one leg to maximise mobility. With that comes speed in returning feet to the ground and following kicks with punches to keep opponents at bay. That leads you to more upright kicking postures, which in turn leads to shorter range kicks.

Kicks are your power shots, so more back leg than lead. All of which means more close to mid distance fighting and more knees and elbows and axe kick in close.

So last thing I'll say is that I'm not an old school tkdist, I'm just good at reverse engineering stuff. All the above is guesswork based on the few older depictions of tkd (like Hwang Jang Lee's video) and some old articles I've read.

If anyone contradicts my suggestions the chances are that they know better than me as my tkd history is weak at best.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What's the reason you want traditional tkd? And what's the reason you don't train at a traditional tkd dojo?

 

[Kevin M McGuire]

What's the reason you want traditional tkd? And what's the reason you don't train at a traditional tkd dojo?

The reason I want to train Traditional Taekwondo is because I'm 54 year old, and this is my third time training martial arts in my life, and the other two times were in traditional schools. The reason I'm in the dojang I'm in is that they also have Hapkido and Judo, and those two mixed with TKD is a cross training combination I've always wanted to engage in. My instructor has been willing to work with me, so I like it there.

My instructor has been very cool about working with me, so I may ask if on TKD nights I can do some traditional horse stance training, and other more traditional training methods while other people are doing heavy bag and focus mitt sports drills. I'm disabled, so I often have to use a separate bag as everyone else anyway, so it really wouldn't be that different for me to be doing something else off be myself anyway.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[WaterGal]

I just discovered on the World Taekwondo Masters Union (the Kukkiwon representative for the United States) that the Kukkiwon is presently working on an official self defense curriculum. I also remember reading on one of the Taekwondo forums that for the last 2 years the Kukkiwon Instructors Course has included a self defense module, so I am going to ask my instructor about us adding that into our school curriculum. I'm putting that out there in case anyone else is interested in pursuing that for their dojang.

My other half took the course... last year I guess it was, and they did include that. The impression I got from what he said about it was that it was very much not traditional-style one-step self-defense drills, but more of a military combatives program, something more like Krav. It was also a short class (maybe a half day, if that) and he didn't come home with any kind of printed material outlining any kind of curriculum. I think this is a still a work-in-progress at KKW that they're trying to build some excitement about, not something that actually exists and is ready to be added to a school curriculum.

 

[WaterGal]

FWIW, most of the traditional self-defense curriculums that I've seen demonstrated for TKD, TSD, and karate are.... well.... not great. I see a lot of "both partners stand in a front stance; your partner slowly punches at your body level 3 feet away from you, and then you defend with a middle block, and counter with a straight punch, still completely out of reach of each other" kind of stuff, which is just.... not reality-based by any means. I think that training people how to understand and manage their distance, how to dodge, move, look for openings.... IMO, that's much more valuable. There's a reason that boxing, despite it's very restrictive rule set, is still regarded so highly for self-defense - because, from what I understand, they really focus on that stuff.

 

[skribs]

FWIW, most of the traditional self-defense curriculums that I've seen demonstrated for TKD, TSD, and karate are.... well.... not great. I see a lot of "both partners stand in a front stance; your partner slowly punches at your body level 3 feet away from you, and then you defend with a middle block, and counter with a straight punch, still completely out of reach of each other" kind of stuff, which is just.... not reality-based by any means. I think that training people how to understand and manage their distance, how to dodge, move, look for openings.... IMO, that's much more valuable. There's a reason that boxing, despite it's very restrictive rule set, is still regarded so highly for self-defense - because, from what I understand, they really focus on that stuff.

At my school we drill this way at white belt, but the drills get closer and faster at higher belts.

I just wish we would move past the drills and into failure drills or sparring. Which we do in Hapkido.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

At my school we drill this way at white belt, but the drills get closer and faster at higher belts.

I just wish we would move past the drills and into failure drills or sparring. Which we do in Hapkido.

The school is the same right? Why do failure drills/sd sparring in one and not the other?

 

[skribs]

The school is the same right? Why do failure drills/sd sparring in one and not the other?

 

[WaterGal]

At my school we drill this way at white belt, but the drills get closer and faster at higher belts.

I think the problem is the core principle, though. People don't fight that way in real life, and learning how to do a drill like what I described won't help you much in real life. I think the most important core principles that Taekwondo can teach us for self-defense are not how to do a spearhand technique, they're how to manage our distance and positioning to make it easier to hit our opponent and harder for them to hit us, and how to deal with a moving target & dynamic situation. The kind of drill I described doesn't do that. I think technical detailed training of sport sparring principles can do a better job of that than static one-step drills - though the limited sport sparring rules do distort TKD sparring away from what a realistic fighting situation would be.

 

[skribs]

I think the problem is the core principle, though. People don't fight that way in real life, and learning how to do a drill like what I described won't help you much in real life. I think the most important core principles that Taekwondo can teach us for self-defense are not how to do a spearhand technique, they're how to manage our distance and positioning to make it easier to hit our opponent and harder for them to hit us, and how to deal with a moving target & dynamic situation. The kind of drill I described doesn't do that. I think technical detailed training of sport sparring principles can do a better job of that than static one-step drills - though the limited sport sparring rules do distort TKD sparring away from what a realistic fighting situation would be.

You'd be surprised at how much better I am at seeing a punch coming even from those one-steps. You get to a point where they're not enough, but they do a better job than people give them credit for.

 

[mrt2]

Hello,

I train in a modern sports oriented WT/WTF dojang, but my personal interest is more in Traditional Taekwondo as it was practiced by the original 9 Kwans before the unification. We do include one-step sparring and forms, plus my instructor lets me spar using traditional techniques outside either the Olympic or AAU Point Sparring rule set, such as knuckle punches, knife hand, spear hand, etc. These three things do a pretty good job of keeping it old school, imho, but I'm curious to see if anyone else has any further suggestions, or has been in the same situation and how they dealt with it.

Thank you.

I can relate. From 1979 to 1982, I practiced Tang Soo Do, which was a lot closer to the martial arts practiced by the 9 original Kwans (namely the Moo Duk Kwan) than a lot of what is practiced today in TKD. We practiced the Pyong Ahn forms and Bassai, rather than the Taegeuk forms, the Palgwe forms, or the ITF forms. I would like to practice my old Pyong Ahn forms and Bassai, but right now, I am learning the ITF patterns. But here is the problem. There is nobody at my current dojang who can work with me on my old Tang Soo Do (or if we are being honest, Karate) forms. And until I show proficiency at least through the black belt ITF forms, I am reluctant to do more than just mess around with the old Tang Soo Do forms by myself. Still, from my own observations, the ITF forms seem to be largely based on the old Pyong Ahn forms and Bassai, and so eventually, I do want to re learn them as I think it would enhance my understanding of the ITF forms.

As for the other old school aspects of MA, in the old days, we sparred light contact to the body, and no contact to the head, but with no pads or safety gear at all. At my current school, we spar with chest protectors, shin and instep guards and head gear. The only thing I would dispense with is the headgear, which, IMO, wouldn't work if someone actually connected with a hard kick to the head or face.

Finallly, one steps and self defense wasn't great as it was taught then or now. Frankly, I consider this the weakest part of the curicullum, and if they changed it up to be more realistic, I would applaud the change.

 

[mrt2]

I think the problem is the core principle, though. People don't fight that way in real life, and learning how to do a drill like what I described won't help you much in real life. I think the most important core principles that Taekwondo can teach us for self-defense are not how to do a spearhand technique, they're how to manage our distance and positioning to make it easier to hit our opponent and harder for them to hit us, and how to deal with a moving target & dynamic situation. The kind of drill I described doesn't do that. I think technical detailed training of sport sparring principles can do a better job of that than static one-step drills - though the limited sport sparring rules do distort TKD sparring away from what a realistic fighting situation would be.

I agree. One step drills don't seem all that realistic the way my school practices them. And yet it is part of the curicullum We have 20 of them, and I hear our head teacher is working on more to add to the curicullum. I am wondering if they should be simplifying things, then work on more realistic practice of fewer basic techniques.

 

[Yokozuna514]

FWIW, most of the traditional self-defense curriculums that I've seen demonstrated for TKD, TSD, and karate are.... well.... not great. I see a lot of "both partners stand in a front stance; your partner slowly punches at your body level 3 feet away from you, and then you defend with a middle block, and counter with a straight punch, still completely out of reach of each other" kind of stuff, which is just.... not reality-based by any means. I think that training people how to understand and manage their distance, how to dodge, move, look for openings.... IMO, that's much more valuable. There's a reason that boxing, despite it's very restrictive rule set, is still regarded so highly for self-defense - because, from what I understand, they really focus on that stuff.

Have you tried looking at Kyokushin or Kyokusjin offshoot schools of karate ? Sparring is continuous and free flowing. Note, not all Kyokushin schools teach forward thinking concepts in fighting. There are a lot that are still teaching you to stand and trade, toughest fighter wins, but those schools generally cannot compete with the folks that are innovating their fighting style.

 

[dvcochran]

Thanks for answering. My question is how can I bring more traditional aspects of Taekwondo into my personal practice, given that I am at a more modern sports oriented dojang. As that relates to the sparring, my school does Olympic style with no punching to the face, although my instructor lets me and another student practice point sparring, which does at least allow punching to the head (but not face), and add in traditional strikes (knuckle punch, ridge hand, etc.), so that is one way I am bringing in a "traditional" aspect of the art that actually goes beyond styles that are commonly viewed as being more traditional than WTF, such as ITF and MDK, based on what I've seen of those styles on Youtube. We also do one-step sparring and forms, and those are traditional training methods, so between them and my modified sparring, I am training three things that are old school. .

I would like to know if anyone has any other suggestions I can add in to train more traditionally. One thing I have already thought of is the fact that apparently Kukkiwon TKD does not have a specific self defense curriculum, the way ITF and MDK do. We do Hapkido at my school, and I love that, but I would like to see the students who only take the Taekwondo classes get to train self defense as well. Plus the Hapkido seems to put joint manipulation first, with striking added in at the end of a technique (which I like, don't get me wrong), whereas the self defense I've seen in videos from ITF and MDK stylists seem to be a bit more focused on striking as the primary objective, and I would like to practice those sorts of self defense techniques as well, so I am going to ask my instructor about adding a self defense section to our TKD syllabus. I'd still like to hear if anyone else has any ideas.

Thanks.

My origins are Moo Duk Kwan. If it matters and you want to gravitate one way or the other, the Palgwe are the color belts of MDK. ITF does Chon Ji, Dan Gun, etc...
Most of our older black belts know Kicho Hyung 1, 2, & 3, Palqwe 1-8,Taeguek 1-8, Pinon (Pyong An) 1-5, Batsai, Kong San Geun, & the 8 Kukkiwon BB forms (if you know them all).
We do practice the cadenced one, two, three steps but we add a unique twist to them. We also drill using the movements out of cadence, in a more realistic SD situation. Along with self defense typically taught by LE.
Blending some of the Hapkido into you curriculum sounds like a good idea. Some schools really follow a "written" plan for each belt. Not a bad thing as long as it doesn't take the fun out of learning for the more naturally gifted students. Although that really comes from how to teach class. As a new instructor, if a curriculum isn't already in place in some form, it should be a good way to organize your thoughts and teaching. For example, an adult has to know x, x, x kicks, blocks, & strikes, form(s) x, one step(s) x, x, x, and spar at a "subjective competency level to pass their first testing. Plug in whatever is appropriate for the x's.
I do see too many schools/instructors that either do know how to teach TMA or understand their TMA. A lot is being lost in how individual moves, in a form for example, can be effective because it is harder to understand and harder to teach. That is not BS. Unfortunately, there is enough BS being taught out there that it is understandably perceived that way.
If it is available to you and your instructor does not have a problem with it, go to other Dojangs/Dojos. Seeing and learning from the variety is a real eye opener for most people. Let us know how things progress.

 

[DaveB]

To add to my previous post, I would avoid Taekwondo forms altogether and learn Shotokan kata if you are looking into application.

That being said tkd and karate diverge principally on the prevalence and focus on kicking.

With that in mind I would suggest switching to Ashihara karate or Enshin karate kata.
These are the modern fight based kata of kyokushin off-shoots. So, historical? No. But old school hard style fighting? Yes.