Power of a Punch

JowGaWolf

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if its a universal truth why does any one jab ? a possible answer to this may be, that your jabs are not fast enough and require more work ?
Jabs are easier to make faster. When I was working that reverse punch I had to really tie in my waist and back because I'm not only trying to drive speed but more power that is typical. It's been a while since I've been sore from punching so that gives me a really good idea of just how much I had to work the punch. If a person can't work that power from the waist then that reverse punch won't be fast enough. In terms of being simple and expanding the least amount of energy. Jabs are going to win all the time. Yesterday I did almost the equal amount of jabs to reverse punches, but it's the reverse punch that took a toll on me.

I know most of it that I need better conditioning to throw my reverse punches like a jab, but it still proof as to which one requires more.
 

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well no, if someone is attacking you they have to come in range at some point, other wise its not an attack, taking a static position and waiting for them isnt the biggest problem

if it more a consensual fight ring or other wise, then they are just going to keep evading you every time you plant your feet, if they have a reach advantage they will both hit and evade you

get someone and play tag with them and see how this works out
Here you can catch glimpses of Tyson's static punching

You can see some of it here as well. You'll see that he also takes the horse stance. My definition of a static stance is where your feet don't move from the spot and here you can clearly see him do that.

This is also not a fighting horse stance. This is a training horse stance, so don't expect to see this one in application. Do a horse stance like this in a real fight and you'll lose.
horse+stance.jpg


Here you can clearly see Tyson work the horse stance
 

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Here you can catch glimpses of Tyson's static punching

You can see some of it here as well. You'll see that he also takes the horse stance. My definition of a static stance is where your feet don't move from the spot and here you can clearly see him do that.

This is also not a fighting horse stance. This is a training horse stance, so don't expect to see this one in application. Do a horse stance like this in a real fight and you'll lose.
horse+stance.jpg


Here you can clearly see Tyson work the horse stance

but your a) comparing yoursrlf eith mike t

and b he is only doing that when they come at him

and at no point is he walking around with his arm held straight out in front of him,

if you want to copy mt , take up boxing and fo everything else he does
 

JowGaWolf

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an efficient jab is the shield, they should be hard enough to snap the head back, once they have eaten a couple they natural keep range or cover up, either is good
This isn't what I mean by "sheild and spear" Stuff like this is "spear" all day long spear, spear, spear. Shield comes before spear so in this example, we can clearly see nothing comes before the jab.
 

JowGaWolf

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but your a) comparing yoursrlf eith mike t

and b he is only doing that when they come at him

and at no point is he walking around with his arm held straight out in front of him,

if you want to copy mt , take up boxing and fo everything else he does
I'm not comparing myself to Mike Tyson. I'm simply showing where the techniques exists
 

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I've been using my StrikeMeter again this weekend. For those who haven't seen the previous threads (or a refresher for those who have), it's a meter you attach to a standing target to measure the relative impact when you strike. This isn't a scientific number like PSI or foot-pounds or anything like that. The number by itself isn't very useful, but can be useful to compare techniques used on a similar target.

This time, I decided to test the chambered reverse punch, the cross from the boxer's guard, and other similar techniques. For each punch, I did 5 tests, after which I dropped the lowest and highest score, and averaged the remaining 3. All punches were done with my right hand, wearing a boxing glove, aimed at BOB's chest.
  • Body Motion Only: 286
  • Right Front Stance: 432
  • Left Front Stance: 516
  • Boxer's Cross: 579
  • Horse Stance Arm Punch: 620
  • Ducking Cross: 647
  • Superman Punch: 660
  • Chambered Reverse Punch: 663
  • Horse Stance With Hip: 670
  • Lunge Punch: 702
  • Bicycle Superman Punch: 810
Body Motion only was a punch done just for comparison. I extended my arm before the punch. Then I pivoted my hips into the punch. I'm honestly surprised it was as high as it was.

Right Front Stance and Left Front Stance indicate which foot was forward, in a typical Taekwondo or Karate front stance. These punches were purely arm punches. I'm honestly surprised that it was 20% stronger with the left foot forward, I didn't think that would make a difference. I'm guessing this is because your right foot is pushing straight into the punch in the left front stance, where your left foot is pushing at an angle to the punch in the right front stance.

I'm also surprised at how high the Horse Stance Arm Punch was. This is the same as the front stance punch: arm motion only. I'm guessing this is because both feet are engaged, while in most of the other punches, you're only engaging the back foot. This is also why adding the hip motion to the horse stance punch doesn't add much more power; because you're adding your core and getting more push from the right leg, but you're also taking pressure off of the left leg.

The boxer's cross is the punch from the guard position. The ducking cross is similar, except instead of aiming the punch down, I'm dropping my body down so I can punch straight into the chest. I'm not sure if it's the weight dropping, or the angle of the punch that makes this stronger than the regular cross. But ducking into it provided a roughly 12% increase in power. (And I haven't trained that punch nearly as much as the regular cross).

One thing that's clear is the chambered reverse punch (hand chambered at hip in a back stance, twist the hip like a boxer's cross) is stronger than the boxer's cross. I've heard claims that the boxer's cross is stronger than a reverse punch, and I think that is simply untrue. I'll circle back to that discussion in a minute. It is true that the cross is stronger than just doing an arm punch in front stance. But the horse stance punches, or the proper form of a reverse punch are stronger than a cross.

Last, we have the punches which use a significant amount of body weight. The lunge punch, superman punch, and bicycle superman. The lunge punch is the punch you see in many Taekwondo and Karate forms, where you step with the right leg and punch with the right hand as you land. It makes sense that this is the strongest punch on the ground, since all of your weight is being pushed into that punch (instead of a reverse punch or cross, where some of your weight is on your lead leg).

The superman punch (right knee up, right foot back when you punch) I think loses some compared to the bicycle superman, because your right foot is going back, which takes some of the power off of your right side. The bicycle superman (left knee up, right knee up and punch) seemed to have all your weight on the punch.

Coming back to the discussion of the boxer's cross. I'm not trying to make the claim that the traditional punches are better than the boxer's punch. The boxing punch has plenty of advantages over the chambered punches. It's faster, and it's an easier guard position. However, I think it's a complete myth that the boxer's punch is the stronger punch, a myth I've seen in several discussions. Of course, a boxer probably trains more for punching, which results in a stronger punch...but that's going to be true no matter what style of punching is used.

Last thought, I forgot to do a lunge reverse punch (left leg step, right leg punch). If I remember, next time I will compare the two types of lunge and see if there's a noticeable difference. If it's anything like the front stance punches, there probably will be.
Your findings seem to line up what is seen here.
 
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Have you thought about a progression for your experiment? Such as picking a pair of over and under performing strikes to see if you can improve the results?
Or documenting and factoring in the benefits of the different strikes?

Maybe in the future. If it was at my place, sure, but I don't get to use it that often. I don't have the space in my place, so the BOB and strikemeter are over at my parent's.

I have been factoring in the benefits of different strikes (to some degree). What I'm doing is reporting the relative impact, and trying not to draw too much more than that. There's a tendency for people to report facts, and then add their opinions, and call that opinion a fact. The less I introduce my opinions in, the more it remains factual.

think you can over do the whole power thing to be honest,

there a line of the power thats needed, anything that exceeds that is of academic interest

if you have a free strike, as you do with this experiment and you may or may not have in the real world, then it should be hard enough to knock your opponent over,9(at the very least cause substantial damage)if it isnt then its under powered, if it is then, increasing power is pointless, they are already on the floor

To use video game terms, there's a difference between knocking someone down and doing 30 damage, and knocking someone down and doing 50 damage.

2 days ago I would have agreed but after working my reverse punches during my shadow boxing. My reverse punch is almost as fast as my jab but with more power. For me the chambering process is slightly different than what we would use to drill. With my punches my waist helps to chamber and to send the punch which is faster than trying to chamber and send the punch by only using the arm.

That efficiency of movement plays a big part as well. Going back to video game terms, it's common to have one heal that heals for 1000 and costs 500 mana, and another heal that will heal for 800 and cost 300 mana. The one that does 25% more healing costs 67% more mana. Those full power shots have their place, but if every shot is a full power shot, you're going to gas yourself really fast.
 

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Maybe in the future. If it was at my place, sure, but I don't get to use it that often. I don't have the space in my place, so the BOB and strikemeter are over at my parent's.

I have been factoring in the benefits of different strikes (to some degree). What I'm doing is reporting the relative impact, and trying not to draw too much more than that. There's a tendency for people to report facts, and then add their opinions, and call that opinion a fact. The less I introduce my opinions in, the more it remains factual.



To use video game terms, there's a difference between knocking someone down and doing 30 damage, and knocking someone down and doing 50 damage.



That efficiency of movement plays a big part as well. Going back to video game terms, it's common to have one heal that heals for 1000 and costs 500 mana, and another heal that will heal for 800 and cost 300 mana. The one that does 25% more healing costs 67% more mana. Those full power shots have their place, but if every shot is a full power shot, you're going to gas yourself really fast.
that possibly your oroblems vid games are eer games, knocking someone over is the end of the fight, either because you leave or you dont let them up again, no one is giving them an 8 second standing count if you have an open target and you dont hit them hard enough to knock them ovet then you a fool
 

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Those full power shots have their place, but if every shot is a full power shot, you're going to gas yourself really fast.
Completely agree. One day I'll try to see what my limit is with the reverse punch as a jab. I'll compare it to where I am now versus to what it is when I'm conditioned. I'm curious to see see what the over all toll is.
 
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that possibly your oroblems vid games are eer games, knocking someone over is the end of the fight, either because you leave or you dont let them up again, no one is giving them an 8 second standing count if you have an open target and you dont hit them hard enough to knock them ovet then you a fool

Okay, since my analogy was apparently too much for you, let me explain it more simply.

There's a difference between knocking someone down where they still have all their faculties, knocking someone down where they're bruised, knocking someone down with a broken rib or busted jaw, and knocking someone down because they got knocked out. Some people land hard, some land soft. It depends on what took them down and how experienced they are at falling.

With that said, knocking someone down is not the end of the fight. Sometimes they can get right back up (especially if they back roll, it's harder to keep them down), or they can pull guard (if they're used to groundfighting). There have been plenty of knockdowns in MMA that weren't the end of the fight. Even if you get on top of them, if they're a wrestler they can probably reverse or escape. And leaving may not be an option, especially if they have friends, you're backed into a corner, or they can outrun you (or any other number of scenarios).

However, if you knock someone down with a strong hit to the solarplexus or throat, it's gonna be harder to breathe. The harder you hit them, the more disruption you will cause. With a hit to the face, it's going to daze them and make them see stars. The harder you hit them, the more it's going to do. And different people take different levels of hits, based on their size and their tenacity.

Knowing which hits carry more power is useful when you need more power. If you don't know, then you're just guessing randomly.

And this goes back to video games. If a hit does 30 damage, and another does 50 damage, and the target has 20 health; then your opinion that a-hit-is-a-hit is fine. If they have 40 health, then that 30 damage hit is no longer sufficient. I'm not saying that people have a health meter in real life, but that someone who can take harder hits will require a harder hit.
 

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Okay, since my analogy was apparently too much for you, let me explain it more simply.

There's a difference between knocking someone down where they still have all their faculties, knocking someone down where they're bruised, knocking someone down with a broken rib or busted jaw, and knocking someone down because they got knocked out. Some people land hard, some land soft. It depends on what took them down and how experienced they are at falling.

With that said, knocking someone down is not the end of the fight. Sometimes they can get right back up (especially if they back roll, it's harder to keep them down), or they can pull guard (if they're used to groundfighting). There have been plenty of knockdowns in MMA that weren't the end of the fight. Even if you get on top of them, if they're a wrestler they can probably reverse or escape. And leaving may not be an option, especially if they have friends, you're backed into a corner, or they can outrun you (or any other number of scenarios).

However, if you knock someone down with a strong hit to the solarplexus or throat, it's gonna be harder to breathe. The harder you hit them, the more disruption you will cause. With a hit to the face, it's going to daze them and make them see stars. The harder you hit them, the more it's going to do. And different people take different levels of hits, based on their size and their tenacity.

Knowing which hits carry more power is useful when you need more power. If you don't know, then you're just guessing randomly.

And this goes back to video games. If a hit does 30 damage, and another does 50 damage, and the target has 20 health; then your opinion that a-hit-is-a-hit is fine. If they have 40 health, then that 30 damage hit is no longer sufficient. I'm not saying that people have a health meter in real life, but that someone who can take harder hits will require a harder hit.
While I wouldn't use a video game a analogy I understand that people understand the same things using different comparative examples. The video game example is why I don't worry about loading up a powerful cross. I know right off the back that each body part has a limited amount of damage that it can take. My punch doesn't have to be the most powerful, it just has to exceed the limit of what I'm striking.

If my punch can't break that limit on the first try then it will take multiple shots to do so.
 

JowGaWolf

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Okay, since my analogy was apparently too much for you, let me explain it more simply.

There's a difference between knocking someone down where they still have all their faculties, knocking someone down where they're bruised, knocking someone down with a broken rib or busted jaw, and knocking someone down because they got knocked out. Some people land hard, some land soft. It depends on what took them down and how experienced they are at falling.

With that said, knocking someone down is not the end of the fight. Sometimes they can get right back up (especially if they back roll, it's harder to keep them down), or they can pull guard (if they're used to groundfighting). There have been plenty of knockdowns in MMA that weren't the end of the fight. Even if you get on top of them, if they're a wrestler they can probably reverse or escape. And leaving may not be an option, especially if they have friends, you're backed into a corner, or they can outrun you (or any other number of scenarios).

However, if you knock someone down with a strong hit to the solarplexus or throat, it's gonna be harder to breathe. The harder you hit them, the more disruption you will cause. With a hit to the face, it's going to daze them and make them see stars. The harder you hit them, the more it's going to do. And different people take different levels of hits, based on their size and their tenacity.

Knowing which hits carry more power is useful when you need more power. If you don't know, then you're just guessing randomly.

And this goes back to video games. If a hit does 30 damage, and another does 50 damage, and the target has 20 health; then your opinion that a-hit-is-a-hit is fine. If they have 40 health, then that 30 damage hit is no longer sufficient. I'm not saying that people have a health meter in real life, but that someone who can take harder hits will require a harder hit.
This is what comes to mind when you speak about the damage point comparison. I Play video games, used to play a lot of fighting games specifically EA sports boxing many years ago when I was in my 20's and it wasn't unusual to see people make comebacks very similar to what this video shows. EA sports tries to mimic real life boxers as much as possible as their goal is to reach a higher level or realism than what is shown with Street Fighter and Mortal kombat. Would I base my fighting game plane on these videos game plans, not at all. Can you use some of these game plans to virtually explain some realistic concepts, yep. In some cases it's no different than a demo or walk through in real life.
 
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While I wouldn't use a video game a analogy I understand that people understand the same things using different comparative examples. The video game example is why I don't worry about loading up a powerful cross. I know right off the back that each body part has a limited amount of damage that it can take. My punch doesn't have to be the most powerful, it just has to exceed the limit of what I'm striking.

If my punch can't break that limit on the first try then it will take multiple shots to do so.

There's a difference between an analogy not working, and someone saying I need to stop playing video games because he didn't understand the analogy.

I've gotten to a point where I respond to posts with the same attitude they use towards me. I'm done walking on eggshells around people who are just going to be an *** either way.
 

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There's a difference between an analogy not working, and someone saying I need to stop playing video games because he didn't understand the analogy.

I've gotten to a point where I respond to posts with the same attitude they use towards me. I'm done walking on eggshells around people who are just going to be an *** either way.
I didnt say you need to stop playing vid games, its your life to waste,

My point was you need to stop using them as a referance for real life, at the very least
 
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I didnt say you need to stop playing vid games, its your life to waste,

My point was you need to stop using them as a referance for real life, at the very least

You've never used an analogy?
 

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This isn't what I mean by "sheild and spear" Stuff like this is "spear" all day long spear, spear, spear. Shield comes before spear so in this example, we can clearly see nothing comes before the jab.
Larry, is not waljing about with his arm stuck out like you are
 

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There's a difference between an analogy not working, and someone saying I need to stop playing video games because he didn't understand the analogy.
True. I feel your pain on that as well. When things get bogged down to the smallest detail when the concept is the only thing you are trying explain. It's like discussing the concept of how a car works and then have someone come along and say. "No, if you don't have this small detail then the engine doesn't start." Most people (I know I do) stick to concepts because it's the easiest to have a conversation with and it's get people into the ball part range. It would be different if, this was training, but it's not. It's just a discussion.

Just didn't want you to think that your message was completely lost. My observation is that we all explain similar things first from the perspective that we understand it and any changes to that is an effort to explain from how someone else might understand the same thing.

I'm done walking on eggshells around people who are just going to be an *** either way.
I used to be like this, but not anymore. Say what's on mind regardless of who likes it or doesn't. The eggshells I walk on look like dust lol.
 

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Larry, is not waljing about with his arm stuck out like you are
"Shield and Spear" is my concept. So I'm not sure why you are trying to tell me about a concept that you don't use and don't know about. As far as I know. "Shield and Spear" concept is not taught by anyone else but me.
 

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"Shield and Spear" is my concept. So I'm not sure why you are trying to tell me about a concept that you don't use and don't know about. As far as I know. "Shield and Spear" concept is not taught by anyone else but me.
well i try not to just state the obvious, but do you think their may be a reason why nobody else in the world does it ?
 
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well i try not to just state the obvious, but do you think their may be a reason why nobody else in the world does it ?

At one point, everything humans did had "nobody else in the world that does it." If we never did anything because "nobody else in the world does it", we wouldn't have invented fire.
 
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