Pet peeves while training in Japan
- Thread starter Kreth
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Fluffy said:
I dunno man... IMO belt is there to hold your jacket closed, or to hang your sword from, its a tool, not a "trophy". But then again, in the 'Kan, unlike some other arts, a BB isnt what you aspire to... and all it means is that your a more advanced student, not a master.
Deaf
Green Belt
Fluffy said:
Why? A belt is just a belt. The "don't let your belt touch the floor" or the "don't wash your belt" mentality is something that I fail to understand but that is a thread in of itself.
In the Bujinkan, a belt simply helps you hold your sword(s) in place or allows you to choke the crap outta someone!
Bujingodai
Black Belt
Though the point may be moot. I think maybe some of the traditonal etiquette, maybe not even in some of the Kan dojo.
IE, our old dojo was pretty relaxed. Which is fine. I visited another system of martial arts, I think it was Karate. A friend of mine invited me, I looked like an ignorant tool. So personally it didn't effect my training but it would be nice to know some rules you would need to know elsewhere or in a more traditional surrounding.
IE, our old dojo was pretty relaxed. Which is fine. I visited another system of martial arts, I think it was Karate. A friend of mine invited me, I looked like an ignorant tool. So personally it didn't effect my training but it would be nice to know some rules you would need to know elsewhere or in a more traditional surrounding.
Fluffy
Black Belt
Deaf said:Why? A belt is just a belt. The "don't let your belt touch the floor" or the "don't wash your belt" mentality is something that I fail to understand but that is a thread in of itself.
In the Bujinkan, a belt simply helps you hold your sword(s) in place or allows you to choke the crap outta someone!
For me, it's immportant. That's it.
Fluffy
Black Belt
Technopunk said:
K, if you think so. It's as immportant to me as a flag is to a soldier - which I am as well. It's a representation of the physical and mental aspects of traditional martial arts..........in the Army we do not use the bayonet, but we train with it, we clean it, we carry it around, but I will never use it in hand to hand combat. It's ceremonial, and respected for it meaning.......like a Black Belt (or yes, my Masters belt) in TKD.
Well, I've never trained in Japan, unfortunately, but ... the belt thing ... if I may ask ....Technopunk said:
Is this a Bujinkan thing specifically? I didn't aspire to be a black belt either, but I have one and though it only holds my pants up, I treat it with honor as a symbol of what my teachers think of me, the work I put in, etcetera. Like, I don't leave my wedding band on the floor of the bathroom or in the soapdish because it's my wedding band. I didn't get married for the ring, but it's an important symbol.
So, are you saying this is a Booj thing, then?
Fluffy
Black Belt
shesulsa said:
Yes, you got it.
To be very specific, do Bujinkan folk follow any particular ettiquette or protocol regarding the obi? Is this a school-by-school thing? Is this a Hatsumi Sensei thing? Japanese vs. American thing? More specifics, please.
Also, thank you all for being tolerant of a non-ninjutsu person breaking in on the discussion at hand. :asian:
Also, thank you all for being tolerant of a non-ninjutsu person breaking in on the discussion at hand. :asian:
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Fluffy said:
Well, all I can say is thats the difference in the arts. If you keep in mind that the Bujinkan doesnt have "belt ranks" you could start to see where the "idolization" of the Belt doesnt really come into play in our art... and as other here will be quick to point out as well, rank in the bujinkan isnt... um, the same as other arts. For example, in TKD rank is "athoritatve" and a 1st degree BB is "above" a brown belt. In the Buj, a 1st dan doesnt neccessarily have authority over, say, a first kyu. And in the Buj, a blackbelt doesnt indicate a "masters" rank, or even grant you athority to teach... so they dont hold the same "symbolism" as other arts put on them.
I dunno if that makes sense or explains anything, but its the best explaination I can give you at the moment.
Oh, and FWIW, when I was in the army (11b) we were taught to USE our bayonet... it was called RBFT... so respectfully... that it is nothing more than a symbol is um...
Fluffy
Black Belt
shesulsa said:
To me it's common sense. It's the way I was brought up, to respect items with meaning - wedding ring (is it just gold or does it have a deeper meaning) Flag (cloth?) a matial arts Belt (cloth?). Respect and honor is totaly an American thing, it is also a Korean thing, and an Japanese thing and on...........
I'm non-ninjutsu as well.............I just stumbled onto the thread.
Thanks for the input, Master Fluffy, but I'd really like to hear from the ninjutsu folks here.
shesulsa said:
Speaking as a Bujinkan member living in Japan, the outlook I see toward the belt is a heck of a lot different from what I see Fluffy the Korean stylist saying. The outloolk of people I see around me is that it is just a piece of cloth. Putting too much emphisis on it almost seems to be looked on as a form of egotism. The Japanese teachers all get new belts when the old ones get a bit ragged. The guys that come from overseas with belts nearly white with age stand out by comparison.
And those guys, with their big show of having an ancient belt, are the subject of another rant I could give.
Kizaru
Purple Belt
Technopunk said:
As a former 11 Alpha, I couldn't agree with you more. Anyone who's carying gear they're not going to use needs to be smacked upside the head with an e-tool...preferably their own e-tool, but I digress...
As for my pet peeves, lack of focus and lack of respect top the list.
By respect I mean greeting the teacher when you come in, waiting your turn to speak rather than speaking over others, waiting for the right timing to ask a question (if that time even ever shows itself), not leaning on the walls, not standing there with your arms folded while the teacher is speaking (years ago, this is how people would conceal weapons when coming into a dojo, so this posture can make some of the older shihan a bit "edgy"), not leaving trash around (anywhere), being respectful to the inhabitants of Noda City (people have been coming here long enough that our behavior reflects on Hatsumi sensei), etc etc.
By focus I mean doing your best to "get" what's being shown (instead of using the "oh I'm so confused I'm just going to try and impress the teacher by doing my own thing" cop out), not going out and getting hammered before coming to training, not lying around on the floor when the teacher calls time for a short "break" and not letting your rank distract you no matter how "rank" it is. Ranks don't stop kicks,punces, bombs, bullets or bayonets.
Gassho.
OP
- Thread Starter
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I was going to respond to this thread, but I have to go sand my belt...
Seriously, as Don said, the general attitude of most of the people I've trained with is that the belt is part of your uniform, nothing more.
Seriously, as Don said, the general attitude of most of the people I've trained with is that the belt is part of your uniform, nothing more.
shesulsa said:
I can't answer for all the Booj, since I've not been around -too- much so far. From my limited experience, its not as important as in other arts. As a beginner, I've trained with everyone fairly openly from 10 kyu up to 7th dan. I don't see a very standardized scale for what is considered a black belt (though my group has some written standards, i don't believe its universal). I think its more of a mark of dedication and learning rather than performing a set line of tests and skills (well, let me say the emphasis on the latter is perhaps less than in other MAs?). I personally like the concept of ranks as a guide for how much you have learned, but I'd be quite content learning as much as possible and remaining 10th kyu for years.
I -think- this is fairly universal in the Bujinkan, along with the general "free spirit" I've observed in practitioners (of course, this is sort of a personal observation and from reading about other groups too).
Whats the difference between me if I'm a 10th kyu and have a great deal of knowledge and if i'm a black belt thats lesser qualified? Will someone on "the street" stop and ask me if I'm a black belt? From a silly perspective, wouldn't it be more "ninja like" to "deceive" about ones rank? Have more knowledge that others might perceive? Just my observations...
another view. You wear a black belt when you are in your gi and in your class. Its only really viewed by others in your class and those you are close to (family, friends, etc). In that, its a bit different than a wedding ring. Its still a symbol, but not thats important to the bulk of society.
Feel free to critique
Thank you, gentlemen. :asian:
Not being part of that organization i can not answer how important a belt is but in my school i have had all students throw (for real) their belts across the floor into a corner at the beginning of class and stand where ever thy wanted in line for a night and you know what by the eND of the night any stranger coming into the school could still tell who had knowledge and experience and who was a beginner.
If it is the custom to fold a uniform on the floor then i See nothing wrong with keeping to the custom. I believe some of the sword arts may do the same or something similar.
If it is the custom to fold a uniform on the floor then i See nothing wrong with keeping to the custom. I believe some of the sword arts may do the same or something similar.
Kizaru
Purple Belt
tshadowchaser said:
Traditional Japanese sword arts don't use belts as an indication of "rank"; they use a menkyo or "licensure" system. When a student has been taught the mechanics and application of a certain group of techniques, they are "licensed" in that group of techniques, and then start learning the next group.
"Sport" martial arts introduced the idea of using belts as "ranks" to gauge competence.
Dale Seago
Black Belt
Technopunk said:
Right.
Shesulsa, for a look at the Bujinkan rank structure see http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks
Fluffy commented, "K, if you think so. It's as immportant to me as a flag is to a soldier - which I am as well. It's a representation of the physical and mental aspects of traditional martial arts..........". In other words, there's strong symbolic meaning there as it's a very different martial culture from ours.
Well, bein' a ninjer an' all, I'm accustomed to trying to "fit in". If I found myself in Fluffy's dojo, I'd try to behave in a way that his people would recognize as respectful. Were I in some iaido dojo, I'd be bowing to bokken and iaito.
And were Fluffy to visit my dojo, I'd hope he would try to relax and see in what other ways people show respect to their art and each other.
