Performing the Katas by Iain Abernethy

[Makalakumu]

Could one say thee are Katas in MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, Football, Baseball, etc.?

Take an interpretive dance class and then look at kata. Better yet, take a look at hula and how it relates to lua. The Okinawan cultural tradition is similar.

 

[Ray B]

Better yet, take a look at hula and how it relates to lua. The Okinawan cultural tradition is similar.

Karate is a lot like hula. You have the traditional, (kahiko) and modern, (auana).
You also have the same arguments about what is pono (traditional).

You will not find much lua in the modern stuff but the old traditional stuff is full of it.
Again, like traditional and modern kata.

I choreographed a fight scene commemorating the Makahiki last year for my halau.
Much of what I found was very similar to what I learned from karate.

 

[Tez3]

Is the dance a teaching method though? Kata is for teaching techniques, if the dance is simliar does it too have a meaning other than just doing the movements?

 

[Makalakumu]

Is the dance a teaching method though? Kata is for teaching techniques, if the dance is simliar does it too have a meaning other than just doing the movements?

Yes, the dance is a teaching method. Traditional Lua students start by learning all of the basics in Kane Kahiko. These are the traditional male dances that have been passed down through the generations. Eventually, males are selected for martial arts training, or they show interest, and begin to learn how to interpret the moves in a martial way. So, the moves serve many purposes. One of the purposes is to tell a story. Another of the purposes is to actually teach martial arts technique.

In Okinawan culture, dance serves much of the same function as it does in Hawaiian culture. I don't know if kata tell a story like Kahiko tells a story. I suspect that it very well could have, but that aspect of kata has been lost or is completely unknown outside small small segments of Okinawan culture. What we do know is that moves in kata mean many different things. They can be actual techniques. They can be abbreviated versions of techniques. They can illustrate principles. They can tell a story of the progression of a fight. They can contain specific knowledge of anatomy and how to attack it. They can show weapon techniques. They can hint at forms of attack not directly shown in the kata. They can show how to heal an opponent.

In this way, kata and lua are very similar. Hula forms the basis for Lua and Lomi Lomi (the Hawaiian healing massage, another traditional skill taught to warriors). The motions with the body transcend all three. It's very interesting. Take a look at this dance and let me know what you think...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xr1Wd17w-g&feature=fvwrel

I wish I had more time. My daughter's halau added a male kahiko class...

 

[rickster]

You could say this if memorization was the only goal. Martial arts kata go much deeper, learning patterns that can be adapted to many varied techniques.

Martial arts kata go much deeper, learning patterns that can be adapted to many varied techniques........and other activities cannt do this as well per their speciality?

 

[K-man]

Could one say there are Katas in MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, Football, Baseball, etc.?

Getting back to your question. I could be convinced you might be able to develop a kata for wrestling, less likely for MMA, even less for boxing and not at all for football or baseball.

Could I ask what you understand as 'kata' and how do you see it applying in these areas? :asian:

 

[Tez3]

Getting back to your question. I could be convinced you might be able to develop a kata for wrestling, less likely for MMA, even less for boxing and not at all for football or baseball.

Could I ask what you understand as 'kata' and how do you see it applying in these areas? :asian:

You wouldn't need kata for MMA surely as many of the styles encompassed within it already have them, karate, Judo, TKD etc.

 

[Master Dan]

Very true. Stuart Anslow and Simon O'Neill have both written books based upon this bunkai/hoshin interpretation methodology. Although there are many in the TKD community that resist this methodology, it is a valid avenue of delving much deeper into the art of TKD (or any art based off of Okinawan karate). It is a growing community within those arts as more and more students desire more 'meat' in their training beyond just the cookie-cutter 'learn a form-get a new belt' method of training.

Thank you well said why some choose to come from on high and speak for all that just because they cannot find it in thier book or a committee or org has not endorsed it? Our group believes and teaches that all MA regardless of style owes its origins to TCM 8,000 years ago. Why refuse to add more richness and reality to your personal training and better personal self defense. We always start when teaching seminars keep an open mind. I think resistance comes from the insecurity of not knowing. When you take away learning that was originally only passed down master to deciple so the public could not comprehend just from watching practice or art forms being required to be taught only as a school sport you are only left with myth and legend for many of the current party base line explainations of movements.

Allowing bunkai/hoshin interpretation methodology becomes a spirtual right freedom of expression not to be restricted by any person claiming heracy or so and so or committe never taught that or even worse ownership of all movements really who invented each basic single move that makes up the forms at its purest origin. It is infinite with out begining or end.

 

[K-man]

You wouldn't need kata for MMA surely as many of the styles encompassed within it already have them, karate, Judo, TKD etc.

True. What I was getting at was that boxing has rules to stop holding, therefore kata, which requires some form of restraint to ensure the next technique, will not really work or is not going to work well. Best situation would be a predetermined response against a straight right or a left hook etc. With MMA you could use existing kata or perhaps look at developing something more suited for ground work. That's why I qualified my statement "might be able to develop". Personally, I wouldn't bother, but the question was asked. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

True. What I was getting at was that boxing has rules to stop holding, therefore kata, which requires some form of restraint to ensure the next technique, will not really work or is not going to work well. Best situation would be a predetermined response against a straight right or a left hook etc. With MMA you could use existing kata or perhaps look at developing something more suited for ground work. That's why I qualified my statement "might be able to develop". Personally, I wouldn't bother, but the question was asked. :asian:

According to Iain though, who like myself comes from Wado Ryu, there are techniques within the katas for ground work. He is a Judoka as well so can see the movements that work on the ground. Even I can see some and I have to work at it usually. Watching Iain I get alot of 'ah so that's what that is' moments!

 

[rickster]

Getting back to your question. I could be convinced you might be able to develop a kata for wrestling, less likely for MMA, even less for boxing and not at all for football or baseball.

Could I ask what you understand as 'kata' and how do you see it applying in these areas? :asian:

Is Kata a rehearsed routine?

Is it a routine to bring about a degree of awareness?

Will it develop the awareness to a level of profficiency?

 

[Chris Parker]

Is Kata a rehearsed routine?

Is it a routine to bring about a degree of awareness?

Will it develop the awareness to a level of profficiency?

Firstly, how is you asking such open ended questions actually answering K-Man's one? You know, what do you understand kata as being? Because...

Is Kata a rehearsed routine?

Kind of, but that's not really the point. The only reason it is a such is that that makes it a reliable and consistent teaching form.

Is it a routine to bring about a degree of awareness?

No, that's not what kata is about.

Will it develop the awareness to a level of profficiency?

Not really sure what you're talking about with "awareness to a level of proficiency"... but again, this doesn't appear to be really relevant, as it's completely devoid of what kata is about.

So, if you would be so kind, before we explain it to you, can you tell us what you understand kata to be, so we can see where you need correction?

 

[Sojobo]

According to Iain though, who like myself comes from Wado Ryu, there are techniques within the katas for ground work. He is a Judoka as well so can see the movements that work on the ground. Even I can see some and I have to work at it usually. Watching Iain I get alot of 'ah so that's what that is' moments!

Mr Abernethy may come from a Wado background, however his approach is very un Wado in my experience.

Wado-ryu does not have Bunkai - or at least not in the "Okinawan" karate sense.

That said, I am not saying that what he does is bad - far from it, but it's definitely not Wado.

Sojobo

 

[Tez3]

Mr Abernethy may come from a Wado background, however his approach is very un Wado in my experience.

Wado-ryu does not have Bunkai - or at least not in the "Okinawan" karate sense.

That said, I am not saying that what he does is bad - far from it, but it's definitely not Wado.

Sojobo

It's the Wado that I know as well as Iain and it's what taught here, it certainly does have Bunkai.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wado-Karate-Do-Kata-Bunkai-Vol-1/dp/B0017HP9GA

http://bunkaijutsu.com/tag/wado-ryu-bunkai/

http://japankarateintern.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/more-wado-kata-team-kata-team-bunkai.html

http://karatedojo1.tripod.com/id11.html

Perhaps your Wado training didn't include Bunkai? Not everywhere does.

 

[Sojobo]

It's the Wado that I know as well as Iain and it's what taught here, it certainly does have Bunkai.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wado-Karate-Do-Kata-Bunkai-Vol-1/dp/B0017HP9GA

http://bunkaijutsu.com/tag/wado-ryu-bunkai/

http://japankarateintern.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/more-wado-kata-team-kata-team-bunkai.html

http://karatedojo1.tripod.com/id11.html

Perhaps your Wado training didn't include Bunkai? Not everywhere does.

My Wado training includes Kaisetsu, which is quite different to the process of bunkai.

http://www.ishikawa-karate.com/kata/kaisetsu.htm

Sojobo

 

[Tez3]

My Wado training includes Kaisetsu, which is quite different to the process of bunkai.

http://www.ishikawa-karate.com/kata/kaisetsu.htm

Sojobo

That's very nice website! the curriculum is one I'm familiar with, however 20 years ago when I started Wado we did do Bunkai, I didn't discover it with Iain, he's just clarified it and made it easier to understand for me. Here's a discussion off Iain's old website about Kaisetsu.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000160

 

[Sojobo]

I think the word Bunkai has become a "must have" within many Karate groups (even Wado ones) without its actual process being trully understood.

It is very much the driving force behind Okinwan karate like Goju-ryu, but of course Wado isn't Okinawan - its Japanese - and in most part, its DNA comes from Koryu Bujutsu (Shindo Yoshin Ryu etc).

If you train with some of the older Japanese intsructors like Hakoishi and Ohgami etc, they will use the expression like "explanation" of movement rather than Bunkai and then it is always within the omote of the kata itself.

This is different from Bunkai.

Does your goup practice Kihon Gumite, Idori and Tantodori etc Tez?

 

[Tez3]

I think the word Bunkai has become a "must have" within many Karate groups (even Wado ones) without its actual process being trully understood.

It is very much the driving force behind Okinwan karate like Goju-ryu, but of course Wado isn't Okinawan - its Japanese - and in most part, its DNA comes from Koryu Bujutsu (Shindo Yoshin Ryu etc).

If you train with some of the older Japanese intsructors like Hakoishi and Ohgami etc, they will use the expression like "explanation" of movement rather than Bunkai and then it is always within the omote of the kata itself.

This is different from Bunkai.

Does your goup practice Kihon Gumite, Idori and Tantodori etc Tez?

I think you should go across to Iain's website and forum and argue it out lol, actually I think you'd enjoy the discussion, I'm a bit slow on the more esoteric discussions on martial arts, I really do the prefer the 'this is the technique, it does this and this is why' sort of approach!

I left Wado, or rather it left me about 8 years ago when the club closed down and I took up Tang Soo Do which, and I expect this will upset a lot of people but it's my opinion that TSD is a poor substitute for Wado, there's not the depth and breadth I loved about Wado. We used to do Kihon Gumite though. I was sighing as I was looking at your website, I miss it a lot!

 

[Sojobo]

hehe - I've popped over there a few times, and as I say, I don't think what he does is bad - but it's also not Wado. Iain and I have communicated over this (over the years) and tbf he does concede that whilst he uses the "frame" of wado kata to transmit his approaches - he is not suggesting it is Wado.

And, I admire him for that.

Sojobo

 

[Tez3]

hehe - I've popped over there a few times, and as I say, I don't think what he does is bad - but it's also not Wado. Iain and I have communicated over this (over the years) and tbf he does concede that whilst he uses the "frame" of wado kata to transmit his approaches - he is not suggesting it is Wado.

And, I admire him for that.

Sojobo

Then the next time you come over, book on one of his seminars and I'll do the same, be good training!

I do think though that whatever you call it and however you deal with it, katas must be seen as more than just a pretty set of movements akin to dance. I get frustrated with those who say it's to teach you how to breathe/move your feet/show your moves off etc etc.