Paying For First Class?

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, well....that makes you more enlightened than me, then.

Lol very funny. If my sarcasm is off then forgive me. But yeah I feel you on that one.lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, well....that makes you more enlightened than me, then.

How so? You seem to be willing to share your own thoughts, and even to examine your own responses to look for ways to improve (or to decide when there's no need to change).

 

[ShortBridge]

JowGa had it right, I was being sarcastic.

I love open exchange of ideas extended and received with good intentions. I perceive that everyone on the internet is not engaged equally in that process and I have a limited patience for trolls.

I think that the internet brings out a nasty side of society and I think that martial arts CAN as well. The combination of the two is usually pretty dysfunctional. Martial Talk does a pretty good job of balancing it somehow, but there are members who I have relegated to my ignore list.

Sometimes its better to ignore people than internet spar with them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sometimes its better to ignore people than internet spar with them.

New Martial Talk Slogan.

 

[Andrew Green]

That's a bit different (though not entirely). And I don't think it's necessarily in the students' best interests to protect them from something that makes them feel self-conscious. Getting a bit uncomfortable is part of all growth, and getting beyond feeling "watched" is important to performing well in class, whether there are strangers watching, or just their classmates.

How many people do you talk to that have a part of them that wants to do martial arts, and yet they don't? How many times do you hear people say they want to get in shape first? or lose some weight first? or other things that we know are silly, but to them are issues because they are self-conscious?

Getting uncomfortable may be part of growth, but in the beginning getting out there and doing it in the first place is uncomfortable enough for a lot of people, adding the possibility that they may have spectators watching them when they are already feeling awkward and out of place is not doing them good service.

There are people that drop lots of money on home equipment because they are too uncomfortable to go to the gym (other reasons too, but for some that's the reason), there are chains that have made a lot of money by catering to that feeling of discomfort. Think Women's only centres, planet fitness running ads showing they keep serious lifters out, etc.

If it works for you then great, but in a lot of cases letting people watch classes might be a poor decision as it has a negative impact on the people that are members and paying to give someone that isn't paying what they want.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How many people do you talk to that have a part of them that wants to do martial arts, and yet they don't? How many times do you hear people say they want to get in shape first? or lose some weight first? or other things that we know are silly, but to them are issues because they are self-conscious?

Getting uncomfortable may be part of growth, but in the beginning getting out there and doing it in the first place is uncomfortable enough for a lot of people, adding the possibility that they may have spectators watching them when they are already feeling awkward and out of place is not doing them good service.

There are people that drop lots of money on home equipment because they are too uncomfortable to go to the gym (other reasons too, but for some that's the reason), there are chains that have made a lot of money by catering to that feeling of discomfort. Think Women's only centres, planet fitness running ads showing they keep serious lifters out, etc.

If it works for you then great, but in a lot of cases letting people watch classes might be a poor decision as it has a negative impact on the people that are members and paying to give someone that isn't paying what they want.

In the beginning, the entire class is strangers to them. I think some of it depends upon the context. I trained in two kinds of areas: 1) semi-public areas where people could simply wander in whenever they wanted, and 2) schools with their own location with prominent "visitor" seating (a long bench just inside the door). When people just wandered into those semi-public areas, it felt more odd to me than when a visitor sat on that bench in the designated area at the schools.

And in my experience as a student, I never saw, worked with, or talked to anyone who was more self-conscious about a person watching the class than they were about doing something in front of members of the class. Since defending in front of the class is part of standard training in all of the programs I trained in for any length of time, the people on the bench were less intimidating than something that was integral to the training. So, a non-issue.

EDIT: The references to training at home vs. training at the gym would be more analogous to taking private lessons versus joining a class, not training in a class with/without someone sitting on a bench watching. That's more a matter of comparing oneself to others doing similar activities, which the spectators are not.

 

[ShortBridge]

So, I think what's shaping up here is that the setting matters. If you've got a visitor's area, then why wouldn't you invite people to visit and sit in it? If you're teaching in a community center or a park, then people are going to wander by and stop and you can either chase them off or welcome them and the former would seem odd, considering where you are.

I teach in a secure basement in an undisclosed location in Chinatown. No one could even find us or access the space unless I arranged to meet them and take them down there with me. It's hot and dusty and industrial and there's no place to sit. It would be very uncomfortable for everyone, including me, to just have some one hanging around down there while we trained.

I hadn't considered before how much environment played into this decision.

 

[Mattattack]

I don't charge for visits in part because I don't want either of us to feel obligated to the other beyond that visit. I also don't invite many visitors because growth beyond a certain point is not my objective.

That said, it's a hassle running a martial arts class and whatever model works best for the person doing it is the right one for them. Students should be evaluating the teacher/club the same as the other way around, so if it doesn't sit right with you, it may not be your spot.

I very much agree with this. If its not their cup of tea they shouldbe able to walk away. My first teacher required prospective students to sit in and watch two sessions before jumping in. They could evaluate him as a teacher, and he could test them to see if they had the capacity to commit.

I've abbreviated this to one viewing session and one trial before imposing dues. Seems to work fine.

My Wing Chun teacher and my Chen Taiji teacher both did free first lessons.

I guess if its a commercial school they dont want to waste time and manpower on free trials?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I guess if its a commercial school they dont want to waste time and manpower on free trials?

Actually, many commercial schools (I assume you mean larger schools with their own building?) do offer a free trial. Those instructors who don't are often of a mind that watching is the way to make the decision (my view, though I still offer the free class). A free trial really isn't much different from any other first class, at least in my case. I simply start their first class and ask them at the end if they're going to come back. Since nearly everyone who does the first class stays, it's not really any more time/manpower than it would be without the free trial.

 

[Mattattack]

It could involve more manpower/time since as someone mentioned earlier newbies require more effort. I like to say they have to learn how to learn in that system before they can get anywhere and work smoothly with teachers and other students.

Still, I take your point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It could involve more manpower/time since as someone mentioned earlier newbies require more effort. I like to say they have to learn how to learn in that system before they can get anywhere and work smoothly with teachers and other students.

Still, I take your point.

Oh, that first class is definitely more time-consuming. It's just the same time whether they pay for the class or not. I think that's what you meant when you said you take my point, but I don't want to assume it.

 

[drop bear]

So do you guys get experienced players who just come in to train or spar because they are in the area?

They are never going to join up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So do you guys get experienced players who just come in to train or spar because they are in the area?

They are never going to join up.

I haven't, but then I'm not in a location for that - I train inside another institution (originally, inside a YMCA, now inside a county athletic center). Even at my instructor's school, though, it was rare. We only usually got people from the same style, and he's in a small city, so there were few passers-through. I have been that experienced person stopping in to train, but only at schools where I had some relationship with the instructor, or within NGA.

 

[drop bear]

I haven't, but then I'm not in a location for that - I train inside another institution (originally, inside a YMCA, now inside a county athletic center). Even at my instructor's school, though, it was rare. We only usually got people from the same style, and he's in a small city, so there were few passers-through. I have been that experienced person stopping in to train, but only at schools where I had some relationship with the instructor, or within NGA.

Martial arts tourism is becoming kind of a thing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Martial arts tourism is becoming kind of a thing.

It'd be fun. I've always thought I should take my gi with me more often when I travel, and go find a school that allows visitors to pay a mat fee and join the fun for a day. Sort of like an unstructured seminar, that is. As an instructor, of course, it makes me a bit nervous when someone entirely unknown shows up (even a new student starting) - I wonder if they're going to want to prove something and injure one of my students.

 

[Mattattack]

Oh, that first class is definitely more time-consuming. It's just the same time whether they pay for the class or not. I think that's what you meant when you said you take my point, but I don't want to assume it.

That is what I meant.

As for martial arts tourism, it would be neat to experience different things like those guys on Fight Quest or Human Weapon (well, maybe not exactly like that).

 

[Kenposcholar]

Our school provides a private lesson, two weeks, and a uniform for $24.99. It's marketed as our introductory special and works fairly well. We found that providing a free private lesson doesn't get the same retention rate for potential students in comparison to paying a small fee.

 

[Mattattack]

That's a pretty good deal. Uniform alone might be worth that.

 

[Kenposcholar]

That's a pretty good deal. Uniform alone might be worth that.

We've found that providing a potential student with immediate, tangible material along with requiring a small investment maximized retention. We don't make money on the special but the goal is a monthly commitment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Our school provides a private lesson, two weeks, and a uniform for $24.99. It's marketed as our introductory special and works fairly well. We found that providing a free private lesson doesn't get the same retention rate for potential students in comparison to paying a small fee.

I've been looking at offering something like that. I had to wait until I found a stable location - should be able to roll something out before the end of the year, maybe get some folks started when they go for their New Year's resolutions.