Paring

Seig

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Please do not fight over this, this is an OPINION type discussion. It seems SGM Parker was paring down the system somewhat(32/24/16) as he further refined it. Do you think he would have kept going with further reductions in the technique count as more refinement was acheived?
 
No, I think the 16 is about the end of the line. It allows for a measurable amount of progress in a reasonable amount of time.

In addition to the other Kenpo Tools such as the Equation Formula, the analytical study of motion and all the master key understandings, there is no need to Pare down anymore.

Once you have the Master Keys to the System.... you now need to go check out all the rooms that you now have learned about.

:asian:
 
Originally posted by Seig

Please do not fight over this, this is an OPINION type discussion. It seems SGM Parker was paring down the system somewhat(32/24/16) as he further refined it. Do you think he would have kept going with further reductions in the technique count as more refinement was acheived?

Our system is 'pared' down even further, and I think it's suffered from it. We don't do any forms, and very little weapons, and way less than 16 techniques per belt.

There's 4 for yellow, 4 for orange, 5 for purple tip and belt (combined), 8 for blue tip and belt (combined), 10 for green tip and belt (combined), 10 for 3rd brown tip and belt (combined), 12 for 2nd brown belt and 12 for 1st brown belt also.

As for master keys, equation of motion etc., I'd never heard of them until I came in here, and I'm a 1st Brown...

The whole idea is that only the really really good stuff is left, but at the end of the day that's quite subjective.

Ian.
 
What is your lineage? Your instructor, his instructor etc back... There are so many branches to Kenpo this will help me understand where you are coming from........

thanks
D
:asian:
 
I don't think paring down as much as spreading out. As far as I understand the system has grown to be quite large as compared to what it started out as. As concepts, theories, and principles started to dictate action there became a need (so as not to overwhelm a student) to spread the teks out. Teks have their place but are not the end all. For me I like the spread because it enhances balance between basics, freestyle, techniques, forms/sets, symbollic logic and the rest of the "stuff".



:asian:
 
Originally posted by Goldendragon7

What is your lineage? Your instructor, his instructor etc back... There are so many branches to Kenpo this will help me understand where you are coming from........

thanks
D
:asian:

You obviously haven't read my spiffy new history of kempo page Dennis! Our club bit is at the bottom.

I'm a student of Glen Coolican, who is a student of Phil Cawood, who si teh head of the Kempo Ryu style. Phil was taught by Gary Ellis, one of Bob Rose's students.

Ian.
 
One point that might be illustrated here is ..... that shorter is not necessarily better. There are good reasons for some techniques to be similar. One is for training and drilling without becoming boring with just a few techniques, another is to display that during a particular sequence you may have other options that you could utilize if the situation calls for it. This leads into grafting and actual understanding of melting many of the basics that you may have but many do not appear in techniques. I know of a lot of studios that have curriculums that teach numerous "natural weapons" in their Basics but several of these weapons do not appear in any specific techniques. Hmmmmmmmmm why would that be....

Paring and understanding the Master Keys of Motion are useful tools. However, it shouldn't be used to minimize the System of Drills that we have.... The 1st 4 Forms - S & L 1 & 2 (which are the dictionaries to the system), The 5th - 8th Forms (which are the encyclopedias to the system), the Sets (which are the appendices to the system) and the 155 Base Techniques to Ed Parker's American Kenpo System, The Basics section, and finally all the Freestyle or Sparring drills.

:asian:
 
Originally posted by satans.barber
You obviously haven't read my spiffy new history of kempo page Dennis! Our club bit is at the bottom.

You are correct... I will go right now and read.

Interesting....... I know Gary Ellis..... he was at one time under Rose but it has been over 15 or more years ago..... Gary studied with Mr. Parker when I saw him in '86 along with Jaki and Merv. I know he knows this material and I am quite sure that he is teaching this currently, I don't quit understand why you are not getting these important "Kenpo Tools"?

:asian:
 
Originally posted by Goldendragon7



You are correct... I will go right now and read.

Interesting....... I know Gary Ellis..... he was at one time under Rose but it has been over 15 or more years ago..... Gary studied with Mr. Parker when I saw him in '86 along with Jaki and Merv. I know he knows this material and I am quite sure that he is teaching this currently, I don't quit understand why you are not getting these important "Kenpo Tools"?

:asian:

Because it's not Gary who heads the style, it's Phil Cawood. Phil learnt from Gary but has since discarded a lot of the material to create his own syllabus, which is Kempo Ryu. It's not that he doesn't know it all, we just don't get taught it, because he believes he's only teaching us the very best stuff.

Gary Ellis doesn't have any formal involvement with our club, although I believe Phil and Gary are still friends.

Ian.
 
They system I study has only 32 self-defense techniques. You learn 16/belt level starting a orange and once all 32 are learned a extension is added. Once all 32 w/ 1st extension has been learned a 2nd extension is added. Once through the 32 w/ 1st and 2nd extensions compounding and grafting is added. Once all 32 w/ 2extensions and compounding and grafting is learned you make your own 'thesis' defences for the 32 attacks by drawing on all the patterns of motion that you have learned. Incidently it is heavily based on EPAK so all the key movements are in the techniques.

Thanks,
Rob
 
Most of you well probably not like my opinion in this matter, and that's ok. Different strokes....

Remember I came up through the ranks in the very early 70's (as did some of you) and have a belief system that a "Full Black Belt" knows the system he is teaching, rather than half of it.

Ranks above Black Belt is for advanced studies and teaching ability as well as time in rank.

I'm also firm beliver that a student should start teaching (under supervision) at some stage before reaching this status however.

I don't think a Black Belt should be awarded before the "entire" base system has been learned. Excluding weapon applications and advanced studies of the system.

Of course I understand the "business" needs and don't feel that the pared down approach can be avoided in today's society and still keep Ed Parker's "dream" alive.

So.... kinda mixed emotions here.
 
Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Well then, who is Phil Cawoods current instructor?
What is his rank and where or who did he get it from?

Thanks
:asian:

Phil Cawood doesn't have an instructor, being at the top of the style he only learns from peers, he's not answerable to anyone.

His current rank is 7th dan, awarded last month, which was awarded by a body of peers (as is usual at that level as you know) in recognition of achievements.

Please make no mistake though, he is an extremely skilled and very dangerous man, just because he's not in the mainstream EPAK doesn't mean that his kenpo skills are any less honed than a lot of other people's. He's also studied a load of other styles which has given him a very broad skill base.

Ian.

p.s., rather than resurrect the 'brick and board breaking' topic, can I just say that for the first time ever I've smashed my way though a board tonight, AND MY HAND REALLY REALLY HURTS! It wasn't a wooden one, it was a re-joinable plastic one. The hooking elbow was fine, the spinning hook kick was fine, but the jab has left my hand feeling extremely sore. I don't think hands were designed to hit things as hard as that without some skin or cloth inbetween, and I won't be doing it again!
 
Originally posted by satans.barber



Because it's not Gary who heads the style, it's Phil Cawood. Phil learnt from Gary but has since discarded a lot of the material to create his own syllabus, which is Kempo Ryu. It's not that he doesn't know it all, we just don't get taught it, because he believes he's only teaching us the very best stuff.

Gary Ellis doesn't have any formal involvement with our club, although I believe Phil and Gary are still friends.

Ian.

I'm getting the impression that you'd rather learn all 155 base
techniques. Am I wrong? If not, then why don't you join an
EPAK school?
 
Originally posted by Goldendragon7


Gary studied with Mr. Parker when I saw him in '86 along with Jaki and Merv. I know he knows this material and I am quite sure that he is teaching this currently, I don't quit understand why you are not getting these important "Kenpo Tools"?


Dennis,

As is often the case, you are spot on with your observations.

Gary continues to teach all aspects of Kenpo as we know it, so I suspect that this dilution must have been instigated by Mr Cawood himself.

Les
 
Originally posted by satans.barber



Our system is 'pared' down even further, and I think it's suffered from it. We don't do any forms, .......

As for master keys, equation of motion etc., I'd never heard of them until I came in here, and I'm a 1st Brown...

Ian.

Ian,

If you wan't to investigate the forms & sets of Kenpo, I would be more than happy to share my (limited) knowledge with you.

Give me a call, or e-mail.

Les
 
Originally posted by Seig

Please do not fight over this, this is an OPINION type discussion. It seems SGM Parker was paring down the system somewhat(32/24/16) as he further refined it. Do you think he would have kept going with further reductions in the technique count as more refinement was acheived?

I have to agree with GD on what he said. I read he really liked the 16 and didn't mind which way his instructors went, but was he really paring it down? i don't think he was, all the original material is still there, so what makes you think it's been pared down?

:asian:
 
Originally posted by Klondike93
I have to agree with GD on what he said. I read he really liked the 16 and didn't mind which way his instructors went, but was he really paring it down? i don't think he was, all the original material is still there, so what makes you think it's been pared down?

I think the obvious is that Seig sees the number of required techniques decrease from 32 to 24 to now 16 (which most are doing) makes it appear that the system is being cut down. Well it is.... but only from the standpoint of # of techniques per belt only..... they may overlook the fact that with the 32 the system ended at Green!, the 24 ended at 3rd Black, and now the 16 end at 5th Black.... so you are correct. Nothing is lost just re configured.

:asian:
 
Originally posted by C.E.Jackson Remember I came up through the ranks in the very early 70's (as did some of you) and have a belief system that a "Full Black Belt" knows the system he is teaching, rather than half of it.

Ranks above Black Belt is for advanced studies and teaching ability as well as time in rank.

I'm also firm beliver that a student should start teaching (under supervision) at some stage before reaching this status however.

I don't think a Black Belt should be awarded before the "entire" base system has been learned.

So.... kinda mixed emotions here.

but consider the big picture..... in a perfect world I would totally agree......

Actually, "No one" knows the ENTIRE system...... it is a "Life Process" that we must commit to, Black Belt is just one step, life doesn't end here but rather the start of understanding more of the why's.

Also, if the founder of the system Titled 1st Degree Black "Junior Instructor" that means there is still much more to learn.... 2nd is an Associate Instructor, and 3rd is Head Instructor.... so Ed Parker was well aware of the process.

Nothing wrong with teaching and wanting great students to pass on the Art...... You won't get an argument from me on that topic.

Just my thoughts..... and you are right ...... each to their own.

:asian:
 
Originally posted by Les



Ian,

If you wan't to investigate the forms & sets of Kenpo, I would be more than happy to share my (limited) knowledge with you.

Give me a call, or e-mail.

Les

It's really not an option for me to move schools. Firstly, I have a lot of friends at the school I'm at now, friends that I've made over the last 5 years, ther's no way that I would just walk out of the door into another school and leave them all behind.

Also, my school is 5 minutes away from my house here in Garforth, the closest you guys are is Durham, which is 80 miles away. I don't own a car, and my student budget doesn't stretch to train fairs fo that distance. Plus, a doing a degree takes up a LOT of time, and on top of that I have a job.

It's a nice offer (and a good suggestion), but just not practical.

Ian.
 
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