Blasphemy!!!

[Elfan]

I wound't consider it blasphemy at all.

 

[Seig]

and I will say it again. It seems to me that a large number of practitioners are so hung up on "right and incorrect" that they seem to miss an underlying point/theme of AK. Yes, Kenpo has been referred to as literature of motion. Yes, some of you have touched on it here. The thing you all keep saying is that you are learning to read. Look at it this way, reading leads to more learning. Learning leads to thinking, thinking leads to writing. Or to paraphase Mr. Parker....Ideal, What If, Formulation. Learn the base, you can build on it later.:asian:

 

[KenpoGirl]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Those who can .................. Do
Those who can't ................ Teach
Those who can't do or teach..... become critics

I'm not a critic!!!! I'm a whiner, there IS a difference. :shrug:

hee hee

As to reasons and purposes, I understand that completely. For the most part my instructor has giving me very good explainations as to the "reasons and purposes" of nearly all of the techniques I've learned so far, the ones he doesn't I ask you guys about.

Its a good thing too, or else I'd be whining about them all.

I appreciate every time, any and all of you respond. Thanks a Bunch!!

Dot

 

[tunetigress]

Originally posted by KenpoGirl

I'm not a critic!!!! I'm a whiner, there IS a difference. :shrug:

hee hee!

Dot

And your excellence at whining is second to none!! You still accepting new students in your TWIT classes Dot?? Maybe even I can be a Talented Whiner In Training!!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

It is often said in science that theories can never be proved, only disproved. There is always the possibility that a new observation or a new experiment will conflict with a long-standing theory.

...As just stated, experimental tests may lead either to the confirmation of the hypothesis, or to the ruling out of the hypothesis. The scientific method requires that a hypothesis be ruled out or modified if its predictions are clearly and repeatedly incompatible with experimental tests. Further, no matter how elegant a theory is, its predictions must agree with experimental results if we are to believe that it is a valid description of nature. In physics, as in every experimental science, "experiment is supreme" and experimental verification of hypothetical predictions is absolutely necessary.

From:

http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html

That about says it all

 

[Brother John]

Cartesian philosophy approaches ALL new information with doubt. Learn something new, try to prove it's wrong, if you can't prove it wrong... it must be accepted as right.
Now I'm not a Cartesian philosopher, I'm more of a beer and pizza philosopher... but I don't think that Descartes was that far off.
It's interesting to note the amount of clammor in the martial arts world overall when Mr. Parker was making a great deal of changes to kenpo and people thought of him as a rebel
If questioning is the issue, we are in good company.
Rene Descartes
Ed Parker
You
Your Brother
John
:asian:

 

[jeffkyle]

Believe NONE of what you HEAR...and HALF of what you SEE!!!

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Les

Sammy,
I'd like to pick up on a couple of points in your post.

1: I'm sorry but the updating the techniques to suit a more modern society is crap

This is what Mr Parker did. Also how he saw the future of Kenpo. Are you saying that Mr Parkers teachings are crap?

2: A punch back in the 1800's or a knife attack in the 1800's requires no different defence now than it did then.

Of course it's different. The very nature of street attacks is constantly changing. I can see great differences between now and when I was a teenager. (Not as far back as the 1800's)

3: I found a lot of the American Kenpo techniques I learnt weren't that effective in their ideal form for me.

Kenpo techniques in the ideal form are not necessarily supposed to work in the street, they are guidelines.

4: Kenpo is a big mans art so some of the ideal techniques may not work for people of slight build as they can't generate the same power.

Have you ever seen Diane Tanaka? Mark Keller? or Ingmar Johannsen?
These excellent Kenpo exponents are not what you would call 'big', but few, if any would doubt their ability.

5: In speakmans syllabus you are required to learn and be able to perform all techniques in their ideal form before modification is allowed.

I have a student with a physical disability which precludes the use of one of her arms. Shall I make her struggle for years, getting nowhere, or tailor the techniques to her capabilities right from the start?

Les

1 & 2.When martial arts were developed they were used by people who had to defend their lives and te lives of their families almost everyday. Granted the sword isn't a common weapon but knives and what not were around then and the unarmed should still be effective now as it was then. As far as I'm aware delayed sword hasn't changed in 30 years.

3.That seems pointless then to teach techniques for the sake of 'tradition' that don't all work.

4. I have just read and heard this from high ranking kenpoka. I myself am only 5'9" and weigh 155lbs yet many techniques worked well for me.

5. If you tailor for her right from the start then why not for everyone. That way all students get stuff they feel comfortable with and that works from the get go.

Just some thoughts

Cheers
Sammy

 

[Sanddragon]

I believe that there are three or four sayings that we learn as we progress thru the ranks of Kenpo that address this question very well.

Devote time to a particular move before deciding whether it does or does not work for you.

Knowledge is bound when one is compelled to tradition. Knowledge is endless when tradition is bound.

An ounce of logic can be worth more then a ton of tradition that has become obsolete through the weathering of time.

It is not the size of the man, but the size of the fear that has caused many a defeat.

I believe if we pay attention to the sayings that we must learn as we move thru each belt we will find many answers to the questions we have.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I have to say that while I find the sayings amusing, I also find their effect to be, by and large, bad. Why? Because--at least on forums--they're sued as cliches that substitute for genuine analysis, real thought. To put things another way, they're generalities that really tell us very little.

Yes, they appear throughout Mr. Parker's "Infinite Insights," books, and through much of his other writings. But how do they appear? I think they appear as summaries, statements of a thesis in an easily-remembered form--and never without being directly tied to a lot of close reading and a lot of analysis of techniques, principles, etc.

I think, too, that they contribute at this point to a lot of religiosity in kenpo. Fake biblical language; too much treating instructors like demigods; too much veneration of one's self and one's instructors. I say, avoid 'em.

For example: "empty your cup." Not only have I come to equate this with arrogance--typically, the folks who use this one are about to tell someone else why they know nothing--but, as I've often heard, "people are not cups." Let's drop the David Carradine--I mean, look at that guy!

Here are kenpo sayings I like:
"Can I borrow you for a minute?"
"Oh, come on. That didn't hurt!"
"Let's hear kiais, people!"

Anyway, that's what I think. It's probably stupid, but there it is.
Robert

 

[Brother John]

Hey Robert-
I agree with you here, and agree very strongly.

they're sued as cliches that substitute for genuine analysis, real thought.

Very true!
They are useful for instruction, but they don't stand alone. They are touchstones of thought, not the thoughts themselves. If one relies on them too heavily then we skip out on doing the thinking for ourselves. It's sort of like my experience in Freemasonry. I've been a freemason for several years now and really enjoy it. THe biggest way that masonry has to pass on it's various lessons are symbols and allegory. But if you leave these two things unexplained, and never expound on them to the neophyte... they are useless jargon that tripps up more than it helps a brother along. Sam Ting. If we just take Mr. Parker's quips and sayings in and of themselves and rely on them as THE lesson instead of pneumonic devices to help us remember GREATER lessons, they will only be social stumbling blocks. We can learn from Mr. Parker's analysis, no doubt... but we will only GROW from our own analysis and investiture of time/sweat/heart/mind.

So, I agree and disagree. We need them and can use these sayings, but only as sign posts to the full lesson.

Half knowledge is dangerous.
As Bruce Lee said in his notes, later gathered and published as "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do"..
"Half way cultivation leads to ornamentalism..."
Most all of us have been guilty of ornamentalizing Mr. Parker's sayings/lessons.

Your Brother
John
PS: :Merry Christmass.
((Another saying that points to a MUCH deeper meaning!!!))

 

[rmcrobertson]

Nicely argued, if ya don't mind my saying so, and an excellent comparasion. The word I'd probably use is, "fetishized," but it pretty much amounts to the same thing.

I'd be interested, too, in a list of the sayings we actually use around the mat, day by day...I used to have a real collection, and I've forgotten most of 'em...oh yeah, here's one:

"Don't go down like that. I didn't do anything to you yet."

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Dot,

I like what yilisifu answered right under the original post...Mr. C said that "if it was hard, we were not doing it right."....

Dot,

I have only skimmed this thread, but I agree with Mr. Billings' words here.

I have, much to my surprise, re-taught some techniques to classmates of mine and "fixed their problem" enough to see what Mr. C was saying. Mr. Duffy also frequently does the same thing to me. If I have a problem, he can usually show me why.

However, back to your original question, I think we are Required to question the system. Mr. Parker developed Kenpo to be a science, to grow with every generation and he founded it on concepts and principles for this reason. When I teach I tell the students that I should be able to literally prove that what I am showing them works. I want them to say "that won't work" (I think Mr. Parker enjoyed this as well). Sometimes proving my point requires doing a technique at full-speed (Alternating Maces for example does not work very well when done slowly or against an attack that is not fully committed). I do this partly because I am a new instructor. Twice I have taken over a class from someone else so I wanted to establish credibility off the bat.

But just as in College where your professor may throw something at you that is wrong just to see if you'll notice and speak up, I think we are expected to breakdown, analyze and discover everything we can about a technique because they are merely illustrations of principles.

And if after all that you conclude for example that a technique is "stupid" I think we should go to our instructor and have him show us why we are wrong. This will greatly enhance your retention of the technique, its principles and concepts and your execution of it. Even so, as someone said earlier, this may still lead you to Tailor the technique to fit your body, flexibility, speed, etc but at least you will know what you are doing and why.

Now I'm going off the deep end so bear with me, I just got this idea. If a Technique is like the Hypothesis of a scientific experiment or Thesis, then your working it with a partner is your test of the they Hypothesis and the Conclusion you come to will tell you if the Technique/Hypothesis is true, false or needs modification.

Most likely it needs modification or Tailoring to work for you as it should and this is how Kenpo fits you. However, without the original Hypothesis you can not run the experiment and come to the Conclusion to find what does work.

So work your material, experiment, question, find the way you have to execute it to make it work for you (check this with your instructor/professor of course if you feel the need to make a change) but don't forget that it is the concepts and principles that you are testing. If you are not doing this, analyzing, breaking down what is there, then you are not helping Kenpo grow or even remain strong. One of my favorite quotes is "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." And I apply this here as well. If you can prove that a technique needs to be changed, then it should be changed (like Mr. Conatser's student suggested changes to Kicking Set and Mr. Speakman's changes to knife techniques). But if you can not prove that a technique needs to be changed then by definition you have reinforced its value within the curriculum.

Merry Christmas everyone. I''m going to print this out for my notebook.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by KenpoGirl

. . .
Let me know what you think, good or bad.

Dot

Dot,

I think it is Blasphemy! To ask a question? To dissect a technique? To try to understand a technique and how and why it works or does not work? OH MY GOSH! DOT you Rebel for posting your opinion. Why you should be exiled from this Planet!

Seriously Dot, If you read through my comments which I am sure you can, I think that it is good to understand and to question. Now this does require a simple level of knowledge before you can question. I will give an example.

1 + 1 = 2

WHY? Seriously Why? Show me the proof! Well you learned this when your mathematics skills were nothing and you took this as a given, As a base.

Now some students not all ask why is 3 X 2 = 6.

The Proof comes when the instructor demonstrates that Multiplication and addition work together. i.e. 2+2+2 = 6, so how many Two's (2's) do we have. We have three. Therefore 3 x 2 = 6. At a much later date, since most people learn multiplication as tables first, the student learns enough to question how things work.

So, something you question today you might like and use tomorrow.

Train hard listen to your instructors, keep an open mind. Learn the basics and the rules and principles. Question, when you can, even if it is only to your self.

Now, this is my opinion, and therefore you must take it for what it is worth.

Rich

:asian:

 

[KenpoGirl]

Thanks Everyone for some really super replies. I am so glad we have this forum. It has helped me to understand a lot about kenpo and Martial Arts. And to realise just how many great people there are around.

I hope everyone has a Extra Special Christmas or whatever holiday is applicable to them. Take care and be well.

Dot

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus
REALITY CHECK:
Questioning is a method of learning. I have learned more by asking seemingly dumb questions than I ever did simply following instructions. And not just in kenpo -- in almost every aspect of life.
Your fellow blasphemer & heathen,
Tad

The only "DUMB QUESTION" is the one you never ask.

Keep training, and never stop asking. One of the signs of a quality martial artist is that they are not afraid to ask questions.
--Dave

Oh and by the way, HAPPY CHRISTMAS , to everyone.:asian: