Outside Dojang Behavior

[Daniel Sullivan]

I try not to comment on this type of thing either. But a lot of people do take offense at their teacher's personal habits. Their teacher smoking seems to be a big one for martial artists. People can get really judgmental over that issue.

I've seen that. It is incongruent in my opinion, but so long as it doesn't interfere with an instructor's ability to do what they do, it isn't a problem for me. So long as what they're smoking isn't some kind of illegal drug, it shouldn't make a difference.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Im not condoning pot use, nor do I use it, but I know too many people who smoke it every night who lead very normal lives, own businesses and are very good parents etc and you would never even know they smoke it.

Yes, but in this scenario, we do know about it. Somehow, be it through word of mouth, the instructor's own loose lips, or catching them in the act, we know about it, be it the drinker, the philanderer, or the dope-head.

The issue with the dope is not so much that I care that he or she does it in and of itself, but that it is illegal. While I don't expect my instructor to be a paragon of virtue, I really have little respect for drug use, not to mention that it opens up the possibility, however remote, of the instructor getting busted at the school. Remember, in this scenario, I found out about it. And I really try not to get too involved in the personal business of the teaching staff or students, so if I'm finding out, chances are, others know too.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

The issue with the dope is not so much that I care that he or she does it in and of itself, but that it is illegal. While I don't expect my instructor to be a paragon of virtue, I really have little respect for drug use, not to mention that it opens up the possibility, however remote, of the instructor getting busted at the school.

Out of interest, would you be as concerned if legality wasn't an issue? Say for example, you were learning Taekwondo in the Netherlands where marijuana is legal - would you still object (i.e. is it the morality of drug use or the risk of police action)?

 

[Bruno@MT]

The issue with the dope is not so much that I care that he or she does it in and of itself, but that it is illegal. While I don't expect my instructor to be a paragon of virtue, I really have little respect for drug use, not to mention that it opens up the possibility, however remote, of the instructor getting busted at the school.

That is true of course, but as with the person I mentioned, it can be technically illegal but really benign. Although I think that some states now allow for medicinal use of pot?

In any case, if it is used for medicinal purposes, I think it is much more responsibe than taking 4 vicodin per day. and if using vicodin for medicinal use is not wrong, then using pot fo rthe same reason isn't wrong either except from a legal point of view. And while the legal pov has a real life impact for the sensei, the question was if you would let it change YOUR perspective on the sensei.

And from that perspective, I would say 'it depends'

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Out of interest, would you be as concerned if legality wasn't an issue? Say for example, you were learning Taekwondo in the Netherlands where marijuana is legal - would you still object (i.e. is it the morality of drug use or the risk of police action)?

On moral grounds, I don't object in the US, just to clarify.

I just don't respect drug usage as a general rule. I hear the stories of the seemless pot smoker who 'can handle it' but I don't see them (not implying that they don't exist; they simply don't broadcast it and are discreet). The ones that I see are, by and large, not people that I would want to pay for instruction in anything. My general opinion is that most people really cannot handle it well, though a lot of the ones that are obviously affected probably think that nobody else can see it, which is another problem with drug use.

If it were in the Netherlands where it is legal, then so long as it did not interfere with the individual's ability to teach the class, and so long as I was satisfied with the quality of teaching in general, it would not affect my attendance. If I had kids in the school, it would depend upon how I found out: was he taking a toke in the office or in front/out back of the school? Did he offer a toke to a student? Did it come up in casual conversation? Did some busy body tell me? Or did he make an idiot of himself while high somewhere away from the school?

The curcumstance would influence my opinion.

I view casual drug usage in the same way that I view cigarettes; foolish, but without a moral judgement. The issue in the US is that it is illegal. And while some states may say 'ne', the federal government says 'anieyo.' Maryland is not a 'ne' state. One thng that differs from cigarettes is that drugs have the potential to cause much more pronounced behavioral changes in some people, which is one of my primary problems with recreational drugs. Both tobacco products and recreational drugs present health risks apart from any altered states or high they may induce.

Daniel

 

[Aikikitty]

I could overlook the drinking, unless it affected the classes, but not the affairs. Also, if I trained in his school, how do I know he might not make a pass at me someday? I'd also be very suspicious if he ever offered to give me or any other female in the class "private lessons".

Sadly, one of my instructors in my early days of training, was married and had an affair with one of the other students. It ended in nasty divorce, both quitting the dojo because of bad feelings and all the rest of us, and the other instructors were greatly affected. Those two weren't together more than that short period and I doubt either would say it was worth it.

Robyn

 

[granfire]

I could overlook the drinking, unless it affected the classes, but not the affairs. Also, if I trained in his school, how do I know he might not make a pass at me someday? I'd also be very suspicious if he ever offered to give me or any other female in the class "private lessons".

Sadly, one of my instructors in my early days of training, was married and had an affair with one of the other students. It ended in nasty divorce, both quitting the dojo because of bad feelings and all the rest of us, and the other instructors were greatly affected. Those two weren't together more than that short period and I doubt either would say it was worth it.

Robyn

LOL, it takes 2 to tango.
While I don't really think one should make passes at married folk I also believe that when you are old enough to get married you should be old enough to say no.

But naturally, if it makes someone uncomfortable to be in the same room with somebody who take these things a bit more relaxed, one has the porogative to change schools.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah... until it's one of their wives their fellow squaddy has been banging.
I suspect then suddenly it will be a big deal.

No, wives are temporary, mates are forever. It happens quite a bit, you have to understand squaddies do share everything. They watch each others backs, they are under fire together, they live and die together, the bond between them is stronger than any other.

As for martial arts instructors, students pay them to teach them martial arts, they have no right to interfere or even know what the instructors do when not teaching.

Why do people think pot is legal in the Netherlands?

 

[Bruno@MT]

No, wives are temporary, mates are forever. It happens quite a bit, you have to understand squaddies do share everything. They watch each others backs, they are under fire together, they live and die together, the bond between them is stronger than any other.

Personally I doubt they would be that kum-bah-yah about it, but not being in the military, I defer to your experience.

As for martial arts instructors, students pay them to teach them martial arts, they have no right to interfere or even know what the instructors do when not teaching.

Not talking about interfering. Just being picky about whom you associate with.
If I don't have the feeling I can trust him, why would I subject myself to him during class and allow him to demonstrate all kinds of nasty things on me?

Why do people think pot is legal in the Netherlands?

Because... it is...?

I can go into a 'coffee shop' in a nearby Dutch city (say maastricht where we always do our annual Christmas shopping), and ask for pot. Or I could have a cup of coffee with a piece of 'space cake' or 'hash brownies'. Granted, I've never even tried pot (or tobacco for that matter) but it would not be illegal for me to try it.

I can only use it there, or I can use it in private. It is legal for me to own it and transport it, as long as it is for personal use. The only thing I can't do is smoke it in public. Technically. Of course, how the coffee shop owner gets his in enough quantities is an area which is ignored by the government. They do care that taxes are paid though .

In Belgium, the situation is a bit different. It is still technically illegal to sell it, but personal use is condoned, though the police have the discretion of confiscating it and/or arresting you if you are a nuisance.

 

[Cirdan]

Not talking about interfering. Just being picky about whom you associate with.
If I don't have the feeling I can trust him, why would I subject myself to him during class and allow him to demonstrate all kinds of nasty things on me?

Because the place is run with "utmost professionalism" maybe. Does the fact that he has affairs mean that he could suddenly decide to snap your arm during a demonstration? I don`t quite follow your train of thought here.

 

[Tez3]

Personally I doubt they would be that kum-bah-yah about it, but not being in the military, I defer to your experience.



Not talking about interfering. Just being picky about whom you associate with.
If I don't have the feeling I can trust him, why would I subject myself to him during class and allow him to demonstrate all kinds of nasty things on me?





Because... it is...?

I can go into a 'coffee shop' in a nearby Dutch city (say maastricht where we always do our annual Christmas shopping), and ask for pot. Or I could have a cup of coffee with a piece of 'space cake' or 'hash brownies'. Granted, I've never even tried pot (or tobacco for that matter) but it would not be illegal for me to try it.

I can only use it there, or I can use it in private. It is legal for me to own it and transport it, as long as it is for personal use. The only thing I can't do is smoke it in public. Technically. Of course, how the coffee shop owner gets his in enough quantities is an area which is ignored by the government. They do care that taxes are paid though .

In Belgium, the situation is a bit different. It is still technically illegal to sell it, but personal use is condoned, though the police have the discretion of confiscating it and/or arresting you if you are a nuisance.

It's still technically against the law, it's just the law is 'relaxed' about personal use, it always has been. I spend a lot of time in the Netherlands too,though in company that would be looking to smoking pot lol. the use is 'decrinimalised' but keeping it on the statute books is a good idea 'just in case' some starts taking the mickey and going to far.

I know several squaddies who's wives hare 'wandered' and while it causes arguments they don't split up and the guys stay mates. It's a very different world they live in, sexual morals are somewhat differently orientated you could say. To them, as I said a shags a shag, nothing to do with anything else. It's a well known saying among them they'll shag anything with a pulse, or at least hasn't gone too cold. the world of the British soldir is a very different one but then if it wasn't they wouldn't never survive what they have t do. and yes a great many of them are martial artists and instructors, very good ones too, some you can look out for in the Olympics Judo.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Because the place is run with "utmost professionalism" maybe. Does the fact that he has affairs mean that he could suddenly decide to snap your arm during a demonstration? I don`t quite follow your train of thought here.

I'm a male. So no, he is probably not going to make a move on me. But he might do so with female students, and I could see why THEY would stay away from him. for females it would be a trust issue. Infidelity would not be a physical trust issue for me.

These issues are different from e.g. drinking. Drinking is temporal. If you make a point of being sober in class, then getting drunk in the weekend is not an issue. Wifebeating otoh is a permanent psychological defect, and the fact that he hasn't yet abused a student is a matter of circumstance. The trust issue I mention is regarding an abusive person.

Now, as I said, this is all subjective so I would say 'it depends' when it comes to infidelity.
This specifically is not a trust issue for me as a man, but a respect issue. If someone has a long time relationship with a married women that is based on love, that is one thing. I can respect that. The heart wants what the heart wants, as they say. But if he had a reputation for hitting on anything with boobs, including his students, regardless of whether they are in relationships, then I would just consider him someone that does not deserve my respect.

Let me reverse the argument: you say I should not care. But at what point would YOU decide that you don't want to be around him?
- If he is a philanderer?
- If he is verbally abusive towards his children?
- If he is a wifebeater?
- If he tortures small animals?
Even if he runs a dojo in the utmost professional manner, at what point would YOU say: 'This guy is a scumbag and I don't want to be around him at all'.?

 

[Cirdan]

Uh, why exactly are you bringing wifebeating, abusing children and torturing aminals into this?

I really fail to see the connection with the circumstances described in the OP. Nor is there anything to suggest he hits on the students.

Does really having affairs with married women automatically mean he is violent, evil, controlling and sadistic?
Studies suggest about half of married men and women are unfaithful at some point, why does society not collapse with all these demons in human form running loose amidst us?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Really, the primary issue that I see is the potential for major amounts of drama and for things to suddenly spin out of control. The things people do often take on a life of their own; only takes one angry husband with a shotgun to ruin a good class. Sleeping around with married women who are parents of your students is asking for trouble.

To say that the place is run with the utmost professionalism is only partly true; the classes and business end may be handled in that way, but if he's crossing boundaries with married parents of students, then I cannot say that he is running the school with 'utmost professionalism.'

Daniel

 

[Aikikitty]

LOL, it takes 2 to tango.
While I don't really think one should make passes at married folk I also believe that when you are old enough to get married you should be old enough to say no.

But naturally, if it makes someone uncomfortable to be in the same room with somebody who take these things a bit more relaxed, one has the porogative to change schools.

You are 100% right that it takes both people to tango, but from my perspective, why play with possible temptation when we know what he's already doing? This mythical instructor could be "blah" or could be a very attractive man. At one point, I had a big crush on the married instructor who later had an affair. I never would have done anything about it, of course, but I'd be lying if I said there wasn't the occasional fantasy. In this hypothetical situation, I know I would say "no", but for me it's more a risk of the "what if someday he tries to cop a feel?" Unless it was obvious, I'm the type of girl who would think, "I'm sure it was just an accident" and put up with things I shouldn't. There are too many stories in the Horror Story section of martial art instructors that would sexually harass his students or wouldn't promote his female students unless she did him a "favor". It's more the risk of things possibly heading that direction that would concern me the most. Also, my husband is very much the type who would show up at the dojo if he found out that the instructor laid an inappropriate hand on me.

Robyn :asian:

 

[Tez3]

There's always the possiblilty of resentment too from those females he doesn't consider attractive enough to want to have anything to do with! There is this thing that when a man is having an affair with another women, a lot of women then think they are in 'danger' from him, which is nonsense. In the OPs hyperthetical case, it may actually be a threesome and none of them are going to be looking outside for any more fun. I have female friends who have been divorced or broken up with men who are then shunned by married women as they are now considered in danger of having affiars with their husbands, it's rot. A chap may have affairs but isn't a 'danger' to every woman he meets. that does rankle with some women however lol.

Some husbands you know are grateful not to have to perform certain chores with their wives you know.

 

[shesulsa]

Obviously, each individual has their own expectations from their individual school, style, teacher.

The people in my class bow to me. They offer me their attention, their respect, parents trust me to grow their little people for up to four or five hours per week.

I have no business engaging in irresponsible behavior like getting publicly plastered every single night ( especially coming to class after having downed some alcohol ).

I have no business screwing others within that group.

I have no business violating generally accepted ethics nor the moral code or espoused virtues of my school.

If you're in a fight club wherein ethical behavior, common courtesy and respect are shunned (or specifically and deliberately NOT a part of the experience) then, by all means, do whatever the hell you want to and **** everyone else.

There is an old saying, "Don't **** where you eat." I try to follow that.

 

[Aikikitty]

There's always the possiblilty of resentment too from those females he doesn't consider attractive enough to want to have anything to do with! There is this thing that when a man is having an affair with another women, a lot of women then think they are in 'danger' from him, which is nonsense. In the OPs hyperthetical case, it may actually be a threesome and none of them are going to be looking outside for any more fun. I have female friends who have been divorced or broken up with men who are then shunned by married women as they are now considered in danger of having affiars with their husbands, it's rot. A chap may have affairs but isn't a 'danger' to every woman he meets. that does rankle with some women however lol.

Some husbands you know are grateful not to have to perform certain chores with their wives you know.

That's a good point, Tez. I hadn't thought of that. My husband knows an older husband who isn't interested in intimacy so he told his younger (in her 50's) wife to play elsewhere if she wanted. Also, we know a few other couples who are married, but have the "open relationship". Neither me or my husband are really worried about them even being interested in us. However, for awhile I had problems with one of the husbands repeatedly telling me way too much information and I finally had to flat out tell him that I didn't want to hear of their "adventures". Either he wasn't taking my hints of changing topic or he was doing it intentionally (the later, I believe). If they are having fun, that's their business, but it's not how my husband and I live, so we just don't want to get dragged in--especially if you're old enough to be our parents! :mst:

On the situation of the OP, if he never hit on me or other females in the class, fantastic! But like others pointed out, there is too much risk for drama in the dojo and I personally wouldn't want to get sucked in, even if I was a bystander.

 

[Tez3]

Our club is a fighting club, not a fight club as such but we all fight and that doesn't mean people turn up drunk, on drugs or other substances, we are polite, respectful and believe in good sportsmanship, this isn't restricted to the traditional places. We take training and fitness seriously, what anyone does outside the club is nobody's business and it never impinges on the club.

Real life is out there, everywhere and sometimes people are far too soft to deal with it. Martial arts isn't the mystical wonder that many think it is, martial artists are people like any other, the 'senseis' aren't religious leaders, moral arbiters or even public leaders. They should earn respect the same way anyone else does. If you don't like what they do outside the dojo, they may not like what you do. For many it's a commercial relationship, you are paying someone to teach you something, that doesn't give you any rights to jusdge the person on anything other than what they teach, if you don't like it, move, find a saint and train with them. I find this beatification of some martial arts instructors rather odd with all this respect, admiration etc flowing towards them. A bit of drama by the way livens a lot of peoples lives up, gives them something interesting to talk about, if it weren't so they wouldn't be gossiping about who the instructor is shagging.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Uh, why exactly are you bringing wifebeating, abusing children and torturing aminals into this?

I really fail to see the connection with the circumstances described in the OP. Nor is there anything to suggest he hits on the students.

Does really having affairs with married women automatically mean he is violent, evil, controlling and sadistic?
Studies suggest about half of married men and women are unfaithful at some point, why does society not collapse with all these demons in human form running loose amidst us?

Because the topic was about whether unspecified outside behavior would influence your decision to stay or go. So I just brought up some general examples. And as I already explained, in many cases it really depends on the specifics, whether it comes to drinking, drugs, or being unfaithful.

The unfaithful ness I already explained in my previous post.
But some people indicated that nothing was any of my business as long as the school was run professionally. I thought you were one of those. If not, then I apologise. By bringing up examples like wifebeating, abuse, etc, I wanted to show that there is a lot of stuff that would make me leave my sensei.

From those who are in the 'none of my business camp', I wanted to ask them where they would draw the line, and if they would willingly associate with a person who did these things, with the excuse that at least the training was good.