Origin = Shaolin

[7starmantis]

I had a lengthy discussion last night at my school with someone people who saw that special on Discover channel about MA. I don't know if you guys saw it, but what do you think about the idea that ALL martial arts originated from Shoalin Temple? Basically that all MA can trace back their origin to Shaolin? What are you guys thoughts on that idea ?



7sm

 

[Bod]

Cornish and Breton wrestling don't trace back to Shaolin.

 

[jkn75]

This is a hard question to answer because people just don't know. Many of the wars in China, Japan and Korea included destruction of knowledge (by destroying libraries or storage areas of works), so unfortunately, the martial arts practiced concurrently or before the Shaolin may have been lost. Look at something recent like the Japanese occupation of Korea. Many people believe that a lot of traditional Korean martial arts were lost in that war. So looking at the history of that region it is hard to say what has been lost in 2000-3000 years.

I think there is some history of martial arts in Okinawa and Africa concurrently or before the Shaolin. Most cultures also have some form of wrestling. With these, I think it is difficult to say that ALL martial arts can be traced to the Shaolin.
:asian:

 

[Despairbear]

I have to agree jkn75, many European MA's have no connection with Aisian MA's. I have found that where ever people are in battle and conflict there is a martial art to go with it. Human being did not come to therecurrent position by planyin nice with others, they came to their position by fighting and killing, and we have gotten very good at it.



Despair Bear

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Despairbear

I have to agree jkn75, many European MA's have no connection with Aisian MA's. I have found that where ever people are in battle and conflict there is a martial art to go with it. Human being did not come to therecurrent position by planyin nice with others, they came to their position by fighting and killing, and we have gotten very good at it.



Despair Bear

Actually, some European arts do have Eastern origins.

Take a few styles of wrestling in Eastern Europe, like Russia. They came from Mongolian wrestling when the Mongols had the biggest empire known to man.

La Savate has roots from Chinese arts


I think that many arts have something to do with the Shaolin temple, but all that came from the teachings of a man from India who taught yoga or so the legend goes.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I had a lengthy discussion last night at my school with someone people who saw that special on Discover channel about MA. I don't know if you guys saw it, but what do you think about the idea that ALL martial arts originated from Shoalin Temple? Basically that all MA can trace back their origin to Shaolin? What are you guys thoughts on that idea ?
7sm

It's Bull.

There are many arts that have no connection to Shaolin.

When I lived in China Chinese people would always brag about their 5,000 years of culture and how they invented this and that.........I had people telling me that Chinese invented the car, airplane, chewing gum and so on.


The Chinese have had a major influence on the arts but they are by no means the starting place.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




It's Bull.

There are many arts that have no connection to Shaolin.

When I lived in China Chinese people would always brag about their 5,000 years of culture and how they invented this and that.........I had people telling me that Chinese invented the car, airplane, chewing gum and so on.


The Chinese have had a major influence on the arts but they are by no means the starting place.

It is impossible to label a starting place as there are arts and fighting is not limited to just a few places. But a lot of arts do have something to do with the Shaolin temple.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Egypt - Is much older in our history of civilization for man. They document on the temples and crypts people in dance with weapons. Is this not sparring or practicing martial arts.

Also, when the first man, be he the one created from a great creator, or one who decided to walk up-right and use weapons in Millions of years ago in history had conflicts. The first punch thrown or rock thrown or stick swung is my mind of martial arts. Then the first dodge to get hit was the second move learned. And I guess and assume that it happened way before the Shaolin Tamples era in Chinese History.

Just my opinion - have yours it is free

Rich

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


It is impossible to label a starting place as there are arts and fighting is not limited to just a few places. But a lot of arts do have something to do with the Shaolin temple.

There is an excellent documentary by the BBC called The Way of The Warrior.
One segment deals with Indian arts (as in the kind from India not America) and it shows some amazing stuff. You can definitely see that there was a flow of arts from India to China.

I have seen other Discovery Channel MA programs and almost laughed my *** off watching them. I believe one was called the "The 10 most deadly arts" or some such nonsense.

They had Jukokai which is a major dan factory-bogus credential factory-total BS martial art whose "Soke" is/was under investigation for fraud was listed at I think #5 on the "deadly scale".
The "Soke" of Jukokai and I have exchanged emails regarding his "training" in Japan and his dubious connection to Motobu Ryu in Okinawa.
I even wrote the Discovery Channel an email with name and numbers of people to contact to verify my statements.....they were kind of like "oh well we have already planned it ........"
So you might say the Discovery Channel doesn't exactly "investigate" their guest to deeply nor do they really care what kind of crap they put out as long as their numbers are good.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I remember in black belt mag, a few years back, oh Rod S. was selling Sokeships to like 40 different arts. He was also talking about Motobu Ryu, how he was the highest ranking American. I can't remember all the details. Could dig that old copy out.
Bob:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I remember in black belt mag, a few years back, oh Rod S. was selling Sokeships to like 40 different arts. He was also talking about Motobu Ryu, how he was the highest ranking American. I can't remember all the details. Could dig that old copy out.
Bob:asian:

Confused???

Could explain what he was selling and how he was selling it?

Thanks

Rich
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I remember in black belt mag, a few years back, oh Rod S. was selling Sokeships to like 40 different arts. He was also talking about Motobu Ryu, how he was the highest ranking American. I can't remember all the details. Could dig that old copy out.
Bob:asian:

That would be him.

He claimed among other things to be "the most respected non-asian martial artist in asia". Too bad nobody over here has heard of him.....that is of course not including the folks he tried to 'suck rank" off of.


I called the Motobu Ryu H.Q. in Okinawa.......they never heard of Rod.

He is also the guy that tried to fake a dan certificate from someone and wrote the kanji on it wrong so it said "sex way house" in stead of "True Way house".
He also claimes to be no less than a 6th dan in about 15~20 different styles.
If I am not mistaken our buddy Chiduce here on MT has some connection to a guy named Durbin who is one of Rod's cronies.

Rod's a real peice of work which is why I objected to seeing him on any legit MA documentary.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by MartialArtist

I think that many arts have something to do with the Shaolin temple, but all that came from the teachings of a man from India who taught yoga or so the legend goes.

So, for all the super pro-Shaolin birthplace of martial arts theorists, what about all the fighting arts that predate Shaolin, especially those of Chinese origin?

Shaolin is not the birthplace of all or even most Chinese martial arts, and is actually not as influential as most would probably think...

Whatever. Old discussion... And I don't have my flame retardant jammies on, so I'm not gonna get up on my soapbox... :soapbox:

Gambarimasu.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



So, for all the super pro-Shaolin birthplace of martial arts theorists, what about all the fighting arts that predate Shaolin, especially those of Chinese origin?

Shaolin is not the birthplace of all or even most Chinese martial arts, and is actually not as influential as most would probably think...

Whatever. Old discussion... And I don't have my flame retardant jammies on, so I'm not gonna get up on my soapbox... :soapbox:

Gambarimasu.

I never said most, I said many. There are literally hundreds of arts that had some or very little basis from the Shaolin temple. It is said that the ideas moved farther East than China and it is said that the idea of the martial arts were from there. Remember, it was a Buddhist from India who brought yoga to the temple, and it evolved into the arts as we know it today.

And if you actually read my post, you would know that I stated that there were martial arts that had no bearing on them like many Western and Eastern arts. I also stated that China got many of today's MAs from India.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Remember, it was a Buddhist from India who brought yoga to the temple, and it evolved into the arts as we know it today.

This is the common belief which doesn't really make it a fact.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




This is the common belief which doesn't really make it a fact.

It may not have been one person. But a lot of today's Chinese arts come from ideas from India.

Don't believe me? Take Buddhism for example. That traveled East and along with them, mental and physical training which (yoga as in YOGA, not that new age stuff) eventually led to many martial arts.

Even take its Pagoda architecture. The Far Eastern architecture as you know it when you think of their castles and everyday buildings with the unique roofs, and the like... Actually, it came from India.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Don't believe me? Take Buddhism for example. That traveled East and along with them, mental and physical training which (yoga as in YOGA, not that new age stuff) eventually led to many martial arts.

Buddhism and yoga haven't really been proven to be connected other than some breathing exercises they don't have much in common.........it also depends on which kind of Buddhism we are discussing too.

Originally posted by MartialArtist

Even take its Pagoda architecture. The Far Eastern architecture as you know it when you think of their castles and everyday buildings with the unique roofs, and the like... Actually, it came from India.

It has it's roots in Tibet and S.E. Asia .......Indonesia especially. Indian architecture is quite different.

 

[KennethKu]

Far Eastern architecture has its root in Indonesia?

Would you provide some references to support that?

Indonesian culture was heavily influenced by Indian culture.
Historically and culturally, India and China have dominated and influenced all other Asian nations and culture.

 

[Despairbear]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Actually, some European arts do have Eastern origins.

Take a few styles of wrestling in Eastern Europe, like Russia. They came from Mongolian wrestling when the Mongols had the biggest empire known to man.

La Savate has roots from Chinese arts

Ok I can understand that, let me clearify. The armed combat manuals of the late middle ages to the early rennisance (sp?) mostly from Germany and Italy have no connection to the Shaolin.


Despair Bear

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



It has it's roots in Tibet and S.E. Asia .......Indonesia especially. Indian architecture is quite different.

http://www.geocities.com/mayuaqui2/paper.html
It came from India and it went to Tibet. It changed as it moved Eastward. Japanese Pagoda is different from Chinese.