Northern Shaolin Question

[Xue Sheng]

What is northern real Shaolin style?

I was recently talking to a guy that does Northern Shaolin (a sifu actually) and I mentioned that I did a Northern Shaolin Long Fist years ago but it was more the performance type to which he told me he did not like the performance type and felt it was ruining the art, to which I fully agreed. But after the conversation was over I started thinking about it and it pains me to admit this but, I really have no idea what “Real Northern Shaolin” is. I have seen so much of the Shaolin Monk performance lately which is not real Shaolin Kung Fu (if you are talking martial art) I am clueless as to what “real” would be.

I have seen real Changquan (Long Fist) but the label Shaolin was not on it so I do not know if it is the same and I saw two very old guys doing part of the Northern Shaolin Long Fist form I learned while I was in Beijing (it was the best most powerful I have ever seen that form done by the way). But I am not exactly sure what "Real" Northern Shaolin is like.

Does anyone here take Northern Shaolin with the MA intact and if so what is it like?

I have already read this by the way

One more question, does "real" Northern Shaolin have cartwheels in it or was that just in the version more geared towards performance?

 

[Rabu]

Xue Sheng,

Yes, I do and yes there is....sort of.

The article you read goes over the overall arcing story of it well enough, but there are some details I have always been skeptical of. Martial arts history before 1900 is sketchy at best in China, worse when it left the country.

The school has a decent history page, going over the details of the legendary beginnings and placing them in that manner:

www.zykfa.org

Choose the link on the left for Shao Lin history.

I have always been skeptical of the details on the style before Master Ku. Not because I think there is any great conspiracy, but simply because there are too many oral tradition peices and psuedo real people.

Yes, there are acrobatic peices in some of the sets, cartwheels and leaps, rolling about on the floor. My understanding is that these are done for show and have limited uses. The particular school I go to has sets that other Northern Shaolin may not, as the teachers who taught in the lineage learned from Master Ku before he went to the Kuoshu institute to teach and before it was added to the Jing Wu curriculum.

Rather than simply push the legend, I can tell you that the system as taught to me does have martial applications and the school does fight in Lei Tai events and place well Locally, Nationally and internationally for the USKSF.

The "reals" Northern Shaolin can in fact be a number of things. The single unifying thread is connection to Ku Rhu Zhong. The ten core sets and several additional sets for weaponry and hand sets are also a good indicator of whether it is 'Northern Shaolin'.

The Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut people do the lower 5 Northern Shaolin sets in their curriculum apparently. Who knew? I didnt until recently.

So you could say "Northern Shaolin descended, Northern Shaolin proper or Northern Shaolin affected"

Based on whether it contains core material, contains all the material or has been changed or modified sets for their usage.

So you do have some variation out there. Work today, or I would make the answer longer with better detail.

Wing Lam does Northern Shaolin and you can see his sets on Youtube for sure.

http://www.redpalmclan.com/forum/

Can be a good place for information. Its a gethering site for Northern Shaolin people including some Jing Wu masters from San Francisco.

The Wikipedia article on Northern Shaolin is not bad at the moment.

Best of luck, will check back later when I can.

Rob

 

[Xue Sheng]

More questions

How many forms are there to learn and is Sanshou or Lei Tai generally taught as part of the ciriculum? If so are applications of the Northern Shaolin forms taught?

I found a list of forms on the page but I am not sure if these all fall under Northern Shaolin or other styles

Shi Er Lu Tan Tui
Lian Bu Quan
Duan Da
Mei Hua
Ba Bu
Chuan Xin
Wu Yi
Kai Men
Ling Lu
Zuo Ma
Lian Huan
Shi Fa
Shaolin Shi Ba Shou Fa

 

[Flying Crane]

More questions

How many forms are there to learn and is Sanshou or Lei Tai generally taught as part of the ciriculum? If so are applications of the Northern Shaolin forms taught?

I found a list of forms on the page but I am not sure if these all fall under Northern Shaolin or other styles

Shi Er Lu Tan Tui
Lian Bu Quan
Duan Da
Mei Hua
Ba Bu
Chuan Xin
Wu Yi
Kai Men
Ling Lu
Zuo Ma
Lian Huan
Shi Fa
Shaolin Shi Ba Shou Fa

I believe Tan tui is not strictly Northern Shaolin. I believe it can from elsewhere, but exactly where I'm not sure. Seems it gets adopted by a number of schools for the good basics it teaches.

Lian Bu Quan is, according to my sifu, a remnant of Northern Dragon, which may be essentially extinct as a complete system.

My sifu learned these from Sifu Wong Jack Man in San Francisco, and I have learned these two sets from my sifu.

I have heard of the 10 hand sets of Northern Shaolin, and I've learned number 6 which, according to sifu, is the first one taught. Don't know why it's number 6 in that case, but it is.

One of sifu's classmates from Sifu Wong's class told me about when he was studying back in the 1960s and 1970s. He says that by the time he had learned all 10 of the hand sets, he had actually learned about 45 forms total from Sifu Wong. Seems there is a whole lot of other material that Sifu Wong is teaching under the Jing Mo banner. I'm not sure exactly how it all relates to Northern Shaolin, tho. I know things like Tam Tui and Lian Bu, Lok Hop Kuen, and some Northern Preying Mantis were all taught, this is stuff my sifu learned from Sifu Wong.

The other names in your list are things that I'm not familiar with. As far as I have known, the 10 NOrthern Shaolin sets are just numbered. I've never heard of them by other names, but I could be wrong about that. I never delved too deeply into the Shaolin stuff with him, since I was more interested in White Crane.

 

[Flying Crane]

Another thought: if you are interested, I could probably put you in touch with my sifu. I bet he could explain a lot of things, and he tends to be pretty open about sharing that kind of info if he has the time. Let me know and I could get his email address. He spent about 10 years studying under Wong Jack Man, so he's been in that shaolin circle.

 

[Rabu]

Actually, two of Wong Jack Man's senior desciples will be in Appleton in a couple of weeks teaching Northern Shaolin sets. You can find info on that Seminar on RedPalmClan's page. One of them will be Robert Louie, who posts on forums under the name 'Northern Shaolin' online.

Yes, the sets mentioned are all considered to be 'canon' sets. Tan Tui is added to the system from Ku Rhu Zhong's Father, who was noted as an expert in the style. Also added to many systems just like pointed out by Flying Crane, for the excellence in the basics it teaches.

The Ten core sets are listed here in your post:

Duan Da
Mei Hua
Ba Bu
Chuan Xin
Wu Yi
Kai Men
Ling Lu
Zuo Ma
Lian Huan
Shi Fa

Tan Tui and Lien Bu are often taught early in the schools which I have experience with.

San Shou/Lei Tai are taught in the school I attend. "free form fighting" and "Raised Platform" styles are venues as well as methods. The Venue of a raised platform and the rules associated with it and the type of fighting you may see in free style matches are useful training tools and closely follow the fallout from the matches which determined some of the top masters around the time the Kuoshu Institute was founded.

The Ten Core Sets are Numbered. The numbers dont match the order they are taught in. There are two groups in the Ten sets, an upper set and a lower set, in 5's. So you may hear it referred to as the 'upper five' and 'lower five'.

At one time, Kai Men, "Open the Door" was the first set taught. Its a hard long set with some acrobatic movement. It was meant to be a breaker. If you could learn that set, you could learn the whole system as intended for performance. (from my understanding)

The order you have it listed in is the order I am aware of it being taught in my school.

There was a good post on history of the style which I will paste after this one, originally from Gene Ching, Kung Fu Magazine. The links are to the article, not a pasting of the material.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/a ... rticle=158

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/a ... rticle=157

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/a ... rticle=156

 

[Rabu]

Applications from forms.

Yes, each form has lyrics associated with it which frame the martial intent. In the school I attend the specific sections are broken down and done as techniques seperately to enhance understanding.

Chin Na, grappling and throws are covered in the curriculum. In order to achieve 'instructor' status, there are a number of required sets, and there are many more beyond that point.

Shr Er Lu Tan Tui
Lien Bu
Duan Da
Mei Hua
Ba Bu

Broadsword, Staff, Spear, Straight Sword, Two person staff, two person fist set

QiGong and electives, history and 7-10 years practice, by current standards. By testing time, people often have more material than required. Each set is a complete method in itself, describing a style. Pletnty of people compete and Kai Men, Wu Yi and Xuan Xin, a Northern Shaolin Baji Set and others are commonly known among the competitors as well as Liu He spear, broadsword and double broadsword. Double Daggers, Cane and other sets make their appearance on the competition team as well.

Its late, time to sleep again, hope the posts helped.

Rob

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tan Tui and Lien Bu are often taught early in the schools which I have experience with......

At one time, Kai Men, "Open the Door" was the first set taught. Its a hard long set with some acrobatic movement. It was meant to be a breaker. If you could learn that set, you could learn the whole system as intended for performance. (from my understanding)

I have been going through YouTube looking for these forms and I have found a few but to be honest I have no baseline to tell what is good, bad or even the correct form.... can you suggest a few videos of these

And what is generally the first form taught these days, is it Kai Men?

 

[Rabu]

On Redpalmclan Shifu Louie posted some research links that Eric Hargrove put up, the links for Tan Tui are as follows: (Some of the links are now dead, all apologies!)

For 10 row
Wang Zi Ping’s Cha Quan 10 Road Tan Tui
http://www.web.nyist.net/~rf/sywj/%C...7%B5%AF%CD%C8/

Han Qing Tan’s 10 Road Tan Tui (Kuoshu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiKwzMg9LTk

10 Road Form Description
http://myweb.hinet.net/home9/zeusray.../tantuei10.htm

10 Road Tan Tui History
http://www.geocities.com/yunhsinyoun...se/tantui.html


For 12 row
12 Road Chin Woo version short history
http://www.sanshou.net/php/news/news...nid=1105260784

12 Road Chin Woo Version Description of each row in Chinese
http://www.cc.nctu.edu.tw/~kunfu/sp312.htm
http://bdjh.kl.edu.tw/~9202/Martial-...ry/leg/leg.htm

Visual of the famous Chin Woo 12 Road Version
http://www.wushu.cz/shaolin_tantui_cz.html

 

[Rabu]

Different schools will teach different sets from the core ten as they choose.

Duan Da, or Short hit/Short fight is the first of the ten sets taught in the school I attend.

Wing Lam has many if not all of the ten core sets on Youtube, and his presentation is like a living book. The essential movements are presented, though the speed and focus are off of performance so that the peices can be seen. The sets shown were done for video students and learning via distance.

Wing Lam would have Lien Bu for you to see on youtube.

Hope it helps man,

Rob

 

[Jin Gang]

I think northern shaolin is really a broad category of martial arts, it's not a specific style as such. The style which is actually named "northern shaolin" Bak Sil Lum, as taught by Wing Lam and others, is just one of many that could fall in the category. For instance, Yang Jwing Ming teaches a northern shaolin longfist style, his sets are completely different from Wing Lam's. His lineage is from Taiwan vs Wing Lam's from Hong Kong.

Some of Dr Yang's curriculim is Tan Tui, Lian Bu Quan, Gong Li Quan, Yi Lu Mai Fu and Er Lu Mai Fu, and Xiao Hu Yan, a longfist form that is also used in some northern mantis schools. These forms are taught in other Taiwan longfist lineages as well.

Then there are the traditional forms taught in and around the shaolin temple today. Hong Quan, Xiao and Da. Tai Tzu Chang Quan, Mei Hua Quan, Chang Hu Xin Yi Men, and Qi Xing Quan, among others. The shaolin performers might jazz these forms up for shows sometimes, but they can trace their roots back at least a couple centuries on many of them. I'm not talking the wushu acrobatics, these are real traditional forms. These all would certainly fall into the category of northern shaolin longfist.

There are so many others which can accurately be called northern shaolin longfist.

I don't think there is a "baseline" or a standard set, just different lineages that all have their own methods. So who's standards do you want to follow?

Here are some performances I like
So Hu Yan Quan

Yi Lu Mai Fu and Er Lu Mai Fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGyGwy38dM&feature=related

Da Hong Quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y&feature=related

As for cartwheels, I haven't seen any except in one form that I know from shantung black tiger. The style I practice isn't exactly traditional shaolin longfist, being diluted through Indonesia and mixed with other arts, but it certainly isn't a performance style, either. So I wouldn't be surprised to see a cartwheel in another northern longfist form somewhere. They have drops, scissor kicks, plenty of spinning sweeps, etc, it wouldn't be a stretch to see a cartwheel kick.

EDIT: I did see another cartwheel, Wing Lam has one in his #9 form, Lien Wan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXBrnHouWmo&feature=related

 

[Rabu]

Jin Gang,

Your answer is well thought out and good. My answer was in response to his first link, which was a link to BSL in the lineage of Ku Rhu Zhong.

Long Fist, Lohan, Eagle Claw...yeah, there are a few "Northern Shaolin" styles out there. The only one I am aware of which uses only "Northern Shaolin" is the one I have described. Bei Shaolin Men would be the formal name of the style, "Northern Shaolin Gate" and in the lineage of Ku Rhu Zhong.

Northern and Shaolin are definitely used quite frequently to describe a large selection of styles.

Best regards,

Rob

 

[bowser666]

It is difficult to say what is specifically Northern Shaolin. For example, the school I train at. ( Link in sig) Is Northern Shaolin LOngfist ( and Southern 5 Animals) but we have forms in our curriculum like;

Lian Huan Continuous Linking Fist
Shi Ba Lohan Shou (18 hands of the Enlightened one)
Lien Bu Chuan Continuous Stepping Fist
Gong Li Chuan Power Training Fist
San Tien Chuan 3 Heavens Fist
Jing Long Chuan ( Cant remember the translation on this one)
Hong Chuan ( Red Fist) This link is Gm Fan Chi Sau performing Hong Chuan
http://www.youtube.com/user/ShaolinWuYi#p/u/27/CTgE4AZ9Lxs

GM Fan Chi Sau again performing a Jian Set from my curriculum.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ShaolinWuYi#p/u/20/IbxND3vj1Iw


Direct Lineage of GM Fan Chi Sau , apparently he was highly skilled in Northern Hong Chuan and also learned alot fo swordplay from Wudan as well.

These forms were brought over from Taiwan but have a direct linkage to Chin Woo but even more so, the Nanking Central KuoShu Institute where they gathered Masters from many different styles to create a set curriculum for students and take the best representations from various styles.

 

[Skippy]

What is northern real Shaolin style?

I was recently talking to a guy that does Northern Shaolin (a sifu actually) and I mentioned that I did a Northern Shaolin Long Fist years ago but it was more the performance type to which he told me he did not like the performance type and felt it was ruining the art, to which I fully agreed. But after the conversation was over I started thinking about it and it pains me to admit this but, I really have no idea what “Real Northern Shaolin” is. I have seen so much of the Shaolin Monk performance lately which is not real Shaolin Kung Fu (if you are talking martial art) I am clueless as to what “real” would be.

I have seen real Changquan (Long Fist) but the label Shaolin was not on it so I do not know if it is the same and I saw two very old guys doing part of the Northern Shaolin Long Fist form I learned while I was in Beijing (it was the best most powerful I have ever seen that form done by the way). But I am not exactly sure what "Real" Northern Shaolin is like.

Does anyone here take Northern Shaolin with the MA intact and if so what is it like?

I have already read this by the way

One more question, does "real" Northern Shaolin have cartwheels in it or was that just in the version more geared towards performance?

You have some good points here as it's an interesting question. What's real & not real is going to differ depending to who you talk to. I mean besides the other arts I study & teach I teach Shaolin Arhat or as some may call it Lohan to a select group of people & it quite differs from what is being peddled by the Starbucks Shaolin group. Most Northern & Southern Kung Fu systems that were created for self defense purposes are not really flashy as they had to be practical to keep one alive in a real life or death situation. What I mean is people I know who teach Kung Fu that is geared for real self defense which includes people I know through Kempo & even Chinese influenced arts like believe it or not Uechi Ryu have more realistic Shaolin based roots that what tourist see at the Temple in China that's for sure. Just my two bits!

 

[Xue Sheng]

You have some good points here as it's an interesting question. What's real & not real is going to differ depending to who you talk to. I mean besides the other arts I study & teach I teach Shaolin Arhat or as some may call it Lohan to a select group of people & it quite differs from what is being peddled by the Starbucks Shaolin group. Most Northern & Southern Kung Fu systems that were created for self defense purposes are not really flashy as they had to be practical to keep one alive in a real life or death situation. What I mean is people I know who teach Kung Fu that is geared for real self defense which includes people I know through Kempo & even Chinese influenced arts like believe it or not Uechi Ryu have more realistic Shaolin based roots that what tourist see at the Temple in China that's for sure. Just my two bits!

Due to a few injuries I have not yet gone to meet the Sifu face to face but I am going to, I have talked to him on the phone. But with some help from FC and others on MT, some research on my own and my gut feeling about Chinese sifus based on past experience it tells me he is likely the real thing and may possibly out of Chin Woo

 

[David43515]

Just a little off topic....

Earlier someone mentioned that they weren`t sure Tam Toi was actually Shaolin and that they thought it came from somewhere else originally.

We were always told that Tam Toi had been developed by the Hui, a muslim minority in China, and that because it was very effective in devloping certain skills variations of it were adopted into lots of other styles. Early cross-training at it`s best.

 

[Tensei85]

Just a little off topic....

Earlier someone mentioned that they weren`t sure Tam Toi was actually Shaolin and that they thought it came from somewhere else originally.

We were always told that Tam Toi had been developed by the Hui, a muslim minority in China, and that because it was very effective in devloping certain skills variations of it were adopted into lots of other styles. Early cross-training at it`s best.

Thats what I was told as well from my Sifu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tan_Tui

 

[Tensei85]

However Shaolin designed there own, so the Tan Tui now practiced at Shaolin is not distinctly Hui. But most of the forms that are taught at Shaolin were in fact not Shaolin to begin with, but were accumulated as Shaolin was a melting pot which in fact brought & collected many different systems.