One part of the Reality `self defense for women' responds to:

[Tez3]

The world is made up of myths and legends, fables and bedtime stories. I choose to believe the story that both the arts I mentioned were created by women. You can choose to believe a different story if you wish, it matters not to me. Anyway, that is besides the point. The point is that with so many different Martial Arts, all created at different times in different locations for different purposes, surely there is a good chance that one or two of them were created by women for self-defense.

Really? You choose to believe something was created by women and you think this is reason enough to offer it to women? I assume you have never taught women self defence?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Really? You choose to believe something was created by women and you think this is reason enough to offer it to women? I assume you have never taught women self defence?

Is there any reason NOT to offer it to women? I'm not sure where this response of yours is coming from quite honestly. Is there a problem with the idea of a Martial Art developed by a woman for women self defense?

 

[Tez3]

Is there any reason NOT to offer it to women? I'm not sure where this response of yours is coming from quite honestly. Is there a problem with the idea of a Martial Art developed by a woman for women self defense?

Whether or not it's offered to women would depends on what is being taught, what the club/school ethos is, what the instructors are like. You don't offer it to women on the basis that you like to believe it was created by a woman. It doesn't matter whether a style is created by a man or a woman, it matters that it's effective and teaches what people need to know. It's facile to say 'oh I believe it was created by a woman so it must be good for women.'

 

[drop bear]

This is a good start hoshin. Thank you. Keep going. Consider: Annie "losing the battle" isn't an accident

What is the origin of that 'inner narrative'? Where - how - from whom - did she learn to believe
"its my fault" "i was begging for it" " i am so unlovable" ? Where have you heard and read about women and girls "begging for it" "it's her fault"?

Who keeps that narrative going and alive?

Who benefits from women and girls believing this about themselves?

Where are the sources of that inner narrative of "being unworthy and unlovable" ?

Who is fighting/working to change that narrative about women and girls and Annie? How's that going?

Not one thing she says is surprising to me. I've heard it from,literally hundreds of women and girls who have been abused, molested, assaulted, raped, harassed. I know where it started because I absorbed the same about myself. I started MA at 16 with judo and later karate, aikido. All the MA work was important. It pointed the way to the bedrock I had to dig into. It wasn't even the beginning of enough. But it was important. I'm grateful for MA. But it isn't enough, it's not even close for most of us.

Deep down, most of my female students in classes hold some of these about themselves, even as they fight against those at the same time. Showing up in a class is part of the fight. Unpacking this is part of the work. I don't need to "teach' them about this. I just have to let them know I share the same struggle and show what helped me. We work together. Truly, my students and other women instructors have done the hardest work imaginable. I meet women/girls where _they_ are, wherever that is. Nothing about them in class - not what they say or do (or don't do) surprises or puzzles or irritates me.

People, (including other women) no matter how good-hearted and well-intentioned, cannot work to change this until they understand the source, know what this feels like and can construct the experiences that generate change. We've developed activities, drills, discussions, exercises that open this up.

Do you have to teach men to feel,, "this will not happen to me" " i will not allow this" " you have no right" "how dare you" ? That's not a trick question or sarcasm. If it's not necessary to do this, if the great majority of men and boys don't come into your classes feeling "its my fault" "i was begging for it" " i am so unlovable" it's a good start to think about how that came to be so.

One of my best teachers said "ask the next question".

w/respect, A

We get female fighters who get the "narrative" from their friends and family.

I can see how that would build up.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Whether or not it's offered to women would depends on what is being taught, what the club/school ethos is, what the instructors are like. You don't offer it to women on the basis that you like to believe it was created by a woman. It doesn't matter whether a style is created by a man or a woman, it matters that it's effective and teaches what people need to know. It's facile to say 'oh I believe it was created by a woman so it must be good for women.'

I never said that at all. I said that it was originally created by a woman for self defense. Does that mean it is effective in the modern world? Is it more suited to women than other Martial Arts? The jury is out on that one and you can believe whatever you like. I personally have no opinion on them in relation to women's self defense since I am neither a woman nor teach women self defense. All I was doing was supporting your previous statement about how Martial Arts in the UK isn't entirely governed by men, by giving 2 examples from my own experience. Nothing more or less.

Sigh, I'm getting a little tired of this constant arguing on these threads. Even when you are supporting someone's argument they turn on you and rip your head off. I know that's probably not what you intended but that's how it feels.

 

[aedrasteia]

We get female fighters who get the "narrative" from their friends and family.
I can see how that would build up.

Thanks Drop Bear. Yes, it builds up
And for others following this thread: Go here

Project Unbreakable

keep going, as many pages as you can stand. there are young men and boys here too. Same thing, far fewer, but still present. They deserve to be heard too.
this is what so many of us carry when we come in to MA. And then leave, usually quickly.

Instructors and teachers (most often men) could learn, but choose not to.
And many keep teaching and talking about "women's safety and SD". Of course "on the street". of course, by "strangers".
Bookmark the page and share.
Again, thanks Bear.

your thoughts? w/respect, A

 

[drop bear]

Thanks Drop Bear. Yes, it builds up
And for others following this thread: Go here

Project Unbreakable

keep going, as many pages as you can stand. there are young men and boys here too. Same thing, far fewer, but still present. They deserve to be heard too.
this is what so many of us carry when we come in to MA. And then leave, usually quickly.

Instructors and teachers (most often men) could learn, but choose not to.
And many keep teaching and talking about "women's safety and SD". Of course "on the street". of course, by "strangers".
Bookmark the page and share.
Again, thanks Bear.

your thoughts? w/respect, A

Yeah that is pretty bad.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The world is made up of myths and legends, fables and bedtime stories. I choose to believe the story that both the arts I mentioned were created by women. You can choose to believe a different story if you wish, it matters not to me. Anyway, that is besides the point. The point is that with so many different Martial Arts, all created at different times in different locations for different purposes, surely there is a good chance that one or two of them were created by women for self-defense.

If by chance you are correct, the women borrowed the information from some man art.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The issue here is you have to teach women to think in terms of weather or not she has done something wrong, and deserves she gets, just like you walked into a punch. It is simple logic, but by law and common sense, no body is allowed to rape women; so, technically it is never her fault, and damn you all, if you say any different. So, there is a fine line, you have to be aware of, before you say. "Boo".

 

[drop bear]

Yeah that is pretty bad.

Oh. And i can see why turning that sort of experience into a sales pitch would enrage tez.

 

[drop bear]

By the way i think i will leave the rape counceling to the experts and just work on the non judgemental supportive atmosphere.

 

[Tez3]

I never said that at all. I said that it was originally created by a woman for self defense. Does that mean it is effective in the modern world? Is it more suited to women than other Martial Arts? The jury is out on that one and you can believe whatever you like. I personally have no opinion on them in relation to women's self defense since I am neither a woman nor teach women self defense. All I was doing was supporting your previous statement about how Martial Arts in the UK isn't entirely governed by men, by giving 2 examples from my own experience. Nothing more or less.

Sigh, I'm getting a little tired of this constant arguing on these threads. Even when you are supporting someone's argument they turn on you and rip your head off. I know that's probably not what you intended but that's how it feels.

This is probably the most academic martial arts site there is. when you state something like women created a martial art you are expected to cite your source for that statement, the people here are strong personalities who debate many subjects, it's not a case of saying something and everyone goes 'oh how wonderful'. Many martial artists on here have been training for decades, have a huge wealth of knowledge of martial arts history and delve very deep into their styles. You haven't had your head ripped off at all, you post something that's a nonsense you get called on it. Remember there are many people who read these threads who don't post, the information imparted here needs to be accurate especially when dealing with such a serious subject as this thread is, because we want people to take away the correct information for their safety.

 

[Buka]

I am the male animal. I know how the male animal attacks, how it thinks, how it moves. I know it's weaknesses, it's flaws, it's lies - both to you and to itself. I know it's strengths, it's fears, it's tricks and it's mental pathology.

I know how to kill it, break it, maim it, scare it, chase it, trap it, beat it and eat it. It's what I teach to all my women.

Sadly, I am not skilled at teaching defense against women. I know nothing about the woman animal. They frighten me the crap out of me.

Ah, well, one out of two ain't bad.

 

[oftheherd1]

the theater of battle resides in two places. the physical world ( the actual physical fight) and in the mind of the victim. in this blog story Annie has lost the battle due to her inner narrative. over and over she states things like "its my fault" "i was begging for it" " i am so unlovable". the criminal is able to commit his crime through the battle in the victims mind. he uses many tactics, fear, doubt, coercion. he steals away her power and relishes in his own.
martial arts, SD4W instructors tend to teach things like wrist controls and tell women to "dont walk down dark allyways". these things dont really help. during the crime it is just her and her attacker. everything will abandon her until all that is left is her self, her inner self and the narrative she belives about herself. it seems Allie's inner narrative was one of being unworthy and unlovable. the ending comments says she has had mental health issues since the age of sixteen. it is hard to say if this low self esteem was always there or was brought about through the crime.
most everything any instructor would teach her would fall away and disappear when needed. what she would actually need is self value, confidence and a sense of sovereignty. so my question would be how do you teach someone to feel,, "this will not happen to me" " i will not allow this" " you have no right" "how dare you" ?

If a person is going to teach self defense, I think it is appropriate to mention being careful of putting yourself in harm's way, such as walking in dangerous areas, or becoming drunk from alcohol or drugs where you can't make good decisions. But of course that is not all. Teaching some physical defenses seems almost too obvious to mention. If someone is going to attack you, you should know some defenses. But a big problem is teaching an 8 or 16, or even 24 hour course with no follow up and no continuation of practice.

Getting into the emotionality of past attacks is dangerous ground for those trained to do so, much less those of us who don't have a lot of training and experience. But I don't think any of us who decide to teach self defense can run from that either. But without that training and experience, I think instructors should have experienced social workers or counselors do that part of self defense classes, or at the very least, be able to provide contact points in handouts that all students get. The problem is that usually counseling takes a lot of time, along with experience. Not much can be done in an SD class of relatively short duration.

As to why women feel they deserved it, must have wanted it, or any of the other saws, is pretty much what our society teaches. And I think most of it comes from men trying to justify wrongs they have done. If "she" or "he" wanted it, the perpetrator has really only provided a service, not committed a crime. And it was not his/her fault, if the victim has acted in a way that seems provocative, such as clothing that emphasizes erogenous body areas, seems to be a tease, or whatever else can be used to blame the victim.

But still, it seems that women are held to a different standard, likely coming from times when women were considered chattel, and had to keep themselves "pure" for their husbands or parents who would be looking for suitable husbands, but men were allowed more latitude. We need to get all of society to realize a victim of a crime is just that. I am not sure how we can best do that, as too many people want to categorize victims of sex crimes as lessor beings, and make excuses for the perpetrators of those crimes.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If a person is going to teach self defense, I think it is appropriate to mention being careful of putting yourself in harm's way, such as walking in dangerous areas, or becoming drunk from alcohol or drugs where you can't make good decisions. But of course that is not all. Teaching some physical defenses seems almost too obvious to mention. If someone is going to attack you, you should know some defenses. But a big problem is teaching an 8 or 16, or even 24 hour course with no follow up and no continuation of practice.

Getting into the emotionality of past attacks is dangerous ground for those trained to do so, much less those of us who don't have a lot of training and experience. But I don't think any of us who decide to teach self defense can run from that either. But without that training and experience, I think instructors should have experienced social workers or counselors do that part of self defense classes, or at the very least, be able to provide contact points in handouts that all students get. The problem is that usually counseling takes a lot of time, along with experience. Not much can be done in an SD class of relatively short duration.

As to why women feel they deserved it, must have wanted it, or any of the other saws, is pretty much what our society teaches. And I think most of it comes from men trying to justify wrongs they have done. If "she" or "he" wanted it, the perpetrator has really only provided a service, not committed a crime. And it was not his/her fault, if the victim has acted in a way that seems provocative, such as clothing that emphasizes erogenous body areas, seems to be a tease, or whatever else can be used to blame the victim.

But still, it seems that women are held to a different standard, likely coming from times when women were considered chattel, and had to keep themselves "pure" for their husbands or parents who would be looking for suitable husbands, but men were allowed more latitude. We need to get all of society to realize a victim of a crime is just that. I am not sure how we can best do that, as too many people want to categorize victims of sex crimes as lessor beings, and make excuses for the perpetrators of those crimes.

Women were never considered to be chattel. They have always a protected class, until the Late sixties early seventies, when they demanded the same freedoms as men. Fast forward to today, and you have young women walking around like it is Star Trek world, when in fact, we will always be living in an Alfred Hitchcock world. Men aren't helping other men out, by blaming the victim, They simply would like to point out, that in many cases, the female has ignored the reality of her situation. There will be no Prime Directive that makes us happy genderless. There will always be danger. You can't teach psychos not to act on their passions.

 

[Tez3]

Women were never considered to be chattel.

Oh they certainly were and in many parts of the world they still are. Women were married off by fathers for political and material gains, women couldn't own property or money, it belonged to their fathers then their husbands. In many parts of the world including the UK you could sell off your wife, read The Mayor of Casterbridge by Thomas Hardy.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Oh they certainly were and in many parts of the world they still are. Women were married off by fathers for political and material gains, women couldn't own property or money, it belonged to their fathers then their husbands. In many parts of the world including the UK you could sell off your wife, read The Mayor of Casterbridge by Thomas Hardy.

Say what you will about antiquated thought, but women and children are always at the forefront in every culture. You just don't like how they go about doing that. I get it. Even China holds women in such high regard they choose to have boys; because, most people simply can't afford her pedestal.

 

[Tez3]

Say what you will about antiquated thought, but women and children are always at the forefront in every culture. You just don't like how they go about doing that. I get it. Even China holds women in such high regard they choose to have boys; because, most people simply can't afford her pedestal.

Oh of course, they and many other places in the world think so much of females they abort the female foetuses, it's lovely to be so well thought of.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Oh of course, they and many other places in the world think so much of females they abort the female foetuses, it's lovely to be so well thought of.

In China a male is obligated to take care of his family, when they retire. Women are under no such obligation. Until this is addressed, they are going for the boy child.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The Chinese know this is an issue, but they gotta eat, and stuff.