Oh really?

[benkyoka]

Ichimonji is from gyokko ryu. Seigan is from koto ryu.

I posted earlier but it seems to have been missed. There is Seigan no kamae from the unarmed portion of kukishin ryu.

 

[DWeidman]

I posted earlier but it seems to have been missed. There is Seigan no kamae from the unarmed portion of kukishin ryu.

That can't be right. Richard said you are wrong.

hehehehehe.....

-Daniel

 

[Mr. E]

I started this thread because perhaps Soke has been DIRECT about it since I last talked to Phil. If so... please say so.

Take a look at my first post. I asked if you could point me to a direct public statement by Mr Hatsumi about training in the Gembukan or the Jinenkan. AFAIK, there is none. You can only find him talking about training under "former students" and the like. If you ask around, you can get the full story- but not posted in public for all to see.

So why expect a direct public statement in this case? Why not ask 'Phil' about this as well?

Strawman. Who on earth said differently. Way to fight a battle with yourself.

You may not be saying it, but you are doing it.

Take a look at what Devil Hanzo wrote. He said that as a beggining student he learned something called ichimonji no kamae and described it as being something other than what the Gyokko ryu version is. Now people are speculating that it may be Ichi No Kamae from the Togakure ryu, Seigan from the Kukishin ryu or something else.

But as a begginer, should he not be learning the kihon happo? And what school is that from? Gyokko ryu! So he never learned the Gyokko ryu version of doing Ichimonji no kamae while doing the kihon happo from that school. Devil Hanzo, please correct me if I am wrong.

And from my experience with various martial arts, taking a kamae from one school and using it in the kata from another is very, very wrong. But it is something that people in the Bujinkan are famous for. And it looks like this tendancy is very firmly based because Mr Hayes is responible for so much of the initial transmission of the art.

 

[Devil_Hanzo]

So he never learned the Gyokko ryu version of doing Ichimonji no kamae while doing the kihon happo from that school. Devil Hanzo, please correct me if I am wrong.

At Mark Davis's dojo we were never taught the proper way to do gyokko ryu ichimonji, we were taught Hayes's way of doing it. If you did ichimonji correctly, they would tell you not to do it that way.

Daniel, give me a break. Typical Bujinkan attitude. "PRESENT THE SCROLLS OR YOU KNOW NOTHING". Funny coming from a guy who trains under a soke who can't even prove the lineages of the majority of what he teaches.

Anyway...

Take every Bujinkan teacher in the world and put them in a room and say, "Show me ichimonji no kamae" or "Show me renyo kata" or even "Show me fudo-ken tsuki", there'll be a ton of different results. Grab every teacher in the GBK or JNK and ask the same question, and it will all look exactly the same. Kamae, kata, striking, it'll all look the same. BECAUSE IT SHOULD. There should be no discussion or debate on which is the right way to do things within the organization because every teacher in the organization should be on the same page and teaching their students the same way. This is why the Bujinkan has crappy students with horrible taijutsu. There is no discussion, this has become a widely known fact by anyone with enough common sense to pull their head out of Hatsumi's *** that the Bujinkan is a joke now.

Boston Martial Arts Center is a Bujinkan dojo run by a jugodan in the org. It should rank, teach, and structure the same way every other Bujinkan dojo does. Instead, you'll find Hayes's godai, kamae, elemental philosophies, etc. Mark trains with Steve and he visits the dojo. It's a To-Shin Do school with a Bujinkan name. Period. Hatsumi requested people not train with Tanemura or Manaka, so why would Hayes be any different? The ORIGINAL ORIGINAL post was about BMAC. I explained what I know, much to the chagrin of the BMAC members. Sorry.

 

[Mr. E]

Devil Hanzo,

Do we really have to make this into a bash the Bujinkan thread?

The question is about training with Mr Hayes. I really do not see how your post past your first paragraph helps with that discussion, if even that.

My observation is that Mr Hatsumi has never made a direct public statement about people not training with the Gembukan or Jinenkan. Only about not training with 'former students.' It seems clear that Mr Hatsumi is not pleased at all with Mr Hayes and that he is now an ex-student of the Bujinkan.

Preferably, someone should be asking their friends like Phil in Japan about the matter rather than air things out on the internet. Barring that, my speculation seems as valid as anything else. Really, I am aware of Bujinkan people that cross- train with the Jinenkan and justify it because Mr Hatsumi did not specifically come and tell them to not do that. To me, it seems like they know that it is not what he wants and they are making excuses. I think that this may be a similar case.

I do not think Mr Weidman is thinking of going out and training in Toshindo. But I think that some people will use the same excuse. I think we will see people saying that there is no public rule against what they are doing and they will not bother to ask those higher up in Japan.

And I think that if you have any doubts, you ask someone who knows. Maybe not on the internet, but if you respect your teacher and there is any chance that you may offend him, you ere on the side of caution.

It almost seems like the way relationships are handled. We all probably know someone who is presented with the possibility of doing something that might offend their lover. They are aware of the possibility. Some of those people will go ahead. Some will refrain until they know for sure. The ones that go ahead don't seem to care about their lovers as much as the latter. They only seem to care about their own desires and wants. And the people I know who act that way do not seem to have as stable a relationship as those that ask before acting. Nor do I really like them as people.

 

[Devil_Hanzo]

Do we really have to make this into a bash the Bujinkan thread?

The question is about training with Mr Hayes. I really do not see how your post past your first paragraph helps with that discussion, if even that.

You're right. They should make a forum just for ex-Bujinkan members so we can vent. There's surely enough people to fill it up.

I'll back out of this thread now before I derail it further.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Devil Hanzo,

Do we really have to make this into a bash the Bujinkan thread?

The question is about training with Mr Hayes. I really do not see how your post past your first paragraph helps with that discussion, if even that.

My observation is that Mr Hatsumi has never made a direct public statement about people not training with the Gembukan or Jinenkan. Only about not training with 'former students.' It seems clear that Mr Hatsumi is not pleased at all with Mr Hayes and that he is now an ex-student of the Bujinkan.

Preferably, someone should be asking their friends like Phil in Japan about the matter rather than air things out on the internet. Barring that, my speculation seems as valid as anything else. Really, I am aware of Bujinkan people that cross- train with the Jinenkan and justify it because Mr Hatsumi did not specifically come and tell them to not do that. To me, it seems like they know that it is not what he wants and they are making excuses. I think that this may be a similar case.

Yep, you got it. & if you want to know and can't bother asking Soke yourself, email George. He's tell you what's up. It never fails.

When I resume my training in Takamatsuden arts, & if I decided to train Jinenkan or Genbukan, or with Stephen Hayes, or, God forbid, Ralph Severe, I would most assuredly NOT consider myself a member of the Bujinkan anymore. Now, if sometime beyond that I saw the error of my ways and decided to return to the Bujinkan fold, I have no doubt I would be well-received. Of course, if you play musical dojos, don't expect much luv.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Okay, well I'll ask this of those like Syd who train in Japan.
Syd, how does your sensei stand in these kamae?

I asked my sensei yesterday. First he showed me two styles of ichimonji. One where the inside hand covers around the shoulder and one where it is down near the elbow of the other arm. Then he showed me one kamae where he stood with the inside hand closer to the heart and said that was seigan. Maybe my descriptions suck, but I do my best.

In truth. I don't really care how other people stand in their kamae. If I can defend myself is important to me, spending more time getting emotional about what ryu the stance comes from is a little larpthetic.

Now back on topic before you give sweet baby jesus cot-death.

 

[Mr. E]

In truth. I don't really care how other people stand in their kamae.

So you don't care what Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan says?

Do you have the Gyokko ryu DVD? You know, the one that was produced by the Soke of the Bujinkan himself? You will clearly see that he stands in an Ichimonji no kamae that is exactly as Devil Hanzo describes.

Your teacher says different it seems. Well, I guess you are saying that he knows better than the soke of your art.

Or there is so much incorrect information running around that he does not know. And you are not willing to seek out deeper knowledge.

But of course, you are saying you don't care. What you have fits what you want to believe and has served you well until now.

But....there may be more to learn...greater depths to learn... more skill to be had if only you give up your ego and try to do things as closely as the soke of your style does.

Honestly, IMO you are a matter of shame to the Bujinkan. I have a great respect for the Soke of the nine traditions of the Bujinkan. It is people like you that come straight out and say they don't care what is correct that makes it the laughingstock it is.

Go ahead, flame away at me. I can take it. You don't care what the soke of your system says. You won't research, you won't go back to the source. You will only stay within the narrow limits of what you know. If you take offense in what I say, how about going beyond what your (I assume less than skilled) teacher says and ask the most knowledgeable person you can think of? Doc Jude just pointed out that you need to go to the source- are you saying you will stay only in the safe areas of what your teacher says?

I predict right here and now that you will respond in some way to me rather than seek out someone more knowledgable than your second- rate teacher.

 

[benkyoka]

Okay, well I'll ask this of those like Syd who train in Japan.
Syd, how does your sensei stand in these kamae?

Sorry Nick, I am hesitant to put any descriptions of this sort of thing, as people tend to take things they read on the internet as fact. If I posted a mistake due to my inexperience or inability to properly express what I have been shown it would still make the rounds.

If I have time I could look at my notes and see what is written in the densho for the kamae, but most of my stuff is packed away as I am moving within a few weeks and I am also busy dealing with my 5 and a half week old daughter.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Honestly, IMO you are a matter of shame to the Bujinkan. I have a great respect for the Soke of the nine traditions of the Bujinkan. It is people like you that come straight out and say they don't care what is correct that makes it the laughingstock it is.

At least he cares about making something useful out of his training, for what it's worth.

Let's not forget about all the people who neither care about research or any kind of functionality, and just want to move around and feel better about themselves.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

So you don't care what Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan says?

Can you show me where I said that? You like putting words into other peoples mouths, Mr E, politicians, crooks and cowards do that. I dislike all three. I just said I don't really care how other people stand in kamae.

What you imply is like saying that because you don't care how other people fill out their tax returns you have blatent disregard for the law. Give me a break brother. Go preach you high and mighty crap somewhere else. It's pathetic.

Do you have the Gyokko ryu DVD? You know, the one that was produced by the Soke of the Bujinkan himself? You will clearly see that he stands in an Ichimonji no kamae that is exactly as Devil Hanzo describes.

No not really. I prefer to actually train with real people and not watch videos about martial arts...is that what you mean by self defense in your primary style? You train from videos? Figures. Though I heard there's a good Jet Li film coming out. Perhaps you could learn some good wushu stances from them.

Your teacher says different it seems. Well, I guess you are saying that he knows better than the soke of your art.

Again putting worsds in my mouth. Tisk tisk.
I just asked him what he knew. He showed me.
My sensei was primarily taight in Japan by Nagato by the way. Maybe you would like to draft a letter up or go visit Nagato-sensei in person telling him of your distaste of his teaching methods?

Or there is so much incorrect information running around that he does not know. And you are not willing to seek out deeper knowledge.

"Hello officer...yes I think I found the guy that stole that Lord of the Rings script...he's reading it out on Martial Talk right now!"

But of course, you are saying you don't care. What you have fits what you want to believe and has served you well until now.

EXACTLY. See you say that to sound as an insult. But brother this is the perfect example why you just don't get it. Because while you spent last night talking about how foolish I am for not knowing the exact terminology for a posture I was doing randori with a 6 foot 4 130kg mountain of a man who picked me up as if I was a toddler and threw me to the ground with one arm. I then spent 45 minutes fighting him until with ure taijutsu, capturing space, balance and working on perfect timing I finally broke free of him and actually submitted him. I was left bruised and bleeding but I figured out some ways I can use my taijutsu to defeat people that I couldn't the day before. And repeated kata or the specific names of kamae and the history behind the ryu they come from where never going to do that.

So while you live high and mighty in you text book martial fantasy world throwing 12 sided dice and thinking thats learning how to fight, the rest of us will just focus on training and making it work when it counts. The names of things will mean nothing at that moment. Trust me...I know.

But....there may be more to learn...greater depths to learn... more skill to be had if only you give up your ego and try to do things as closely as the soke of your style does.

Honestly that things you say only show how foolish and ignorant you can be. If I was all about ego, my friend I would not be out there testing my art against others from other arts. Copping beatings in the pursuit of what does and doesn't work and how to find parts of my taijutsu that can fill the gaps. If I had an ego I would stick to my compliant two man kata, looking pretty as the colour on my belt darkens and the stars around my patch cluster. You have a brain. Use it.

Honestly, IMO you are a matter of shame to the Bujinkan. I have a great respect for the Soke of the nine traditions of the Bujinkan. It is people like you that come straight out and say they don't care what is correct that makes it the laughingstock it is.

If I am a shame to teh bujinkan then so be it. To date though I have proven to BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxers, Kick boxers, Kung Fu practitioners, MMA trainers and the like that BJK from MY SCHOOL, and the way we train it can be effective. I have earnt my school respect. I have tested theories and made them work. I have had people say "man I thought the BJK was utter crap but you sure proved me wrong" If Soke is ashamed of me for that...the so be it.

What makes the BJK a laughing stock is not me my friend...It the 1000 plus you tube clips of fat unhealthy so called godans that can't swing a boken without falling over and look like thayed have less trouble pushing open burger king front doors then pushing over their uke.

Go ahead, flame away at me. I can take it. You don't care what the soke of your system says. You won't research, you won't go back to the source. You will only stay within the narrow limits of what you know. If you take offense in what I say, how about going beyond what your (I assume less than skilled) teacher says and ask the most knowledgeable person you can think of? Doc Jude just pointed out that you need to go to the source- are you saying you will stay only in the safe areas of what your teacher says?

I predict right here and now that you will respond in some way to me rather than seek out someone more knowledgable than your second- rate teacher.

The fact you insulted my sensei is enough to show your true colours buddy. Its the big mouth internet warriors like you thinking you know lots because you watch videos that does it.

I don't care much for rank etc...but seeing as YOU care so much about what soke says, then maybe you can go tell him that you think him a fool for giving a second rate teacher such high rank. Perhaps you are man enough to come visit me and tell me to my face what you think of my teacher? Perhaps you could put his teaching method to the test?

 

[Rubber Tanto]

At least he cares about making something useful out of his training, for what it's worth..

Nim, I know you and I have not always seen eye to eye. But thank you for that. Its the only claim I have ever tried to make.

I have a real dislike when you try to discuss something maturely and one person turns it into an insult-slinging personal attack because they don't have a better way to present their viewpoint.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Sorry Nick, I am hesitant to put any descriptions of this sort of thing, as people tend to take things they read on the internet as fact. If I posted a mistake due to my inexperience or inability to properly express what I have been shown it would still make the rounds.

If I have time I could look at my notes and see what is written in the densho for the kamae, but most of my stuff is packed away as I am moving within a few weeks and I am also busy dealing with my 5 and a half week old daughter.

Nah don't worry about it Syd.
I'll just stick to being the foolish infidel BJK laughingstock that I am and not worry about it.:mst:

 

[Mr. E]

No not really. I prefer to actually train with real people and not watch videos about martial arts...is that what you mean by self defense in your primary style? You train from videos? Figures.

You see? That is the problem. You just wrote a huge attack on me for showing how wrong you were.

Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan produced a DVD on the Gyokko ryu. I would think that what he had shown in this video would be something you would want to look for when you want to see what Ichimonji from that school should look like. Instead, you refuse and attack me for even suggesting it.

When you boil down all the posturing that you made and the attacks you made on me, it comes down to you doing your own thing instead of checking to see what the soke of your art is doing. I know you don't want to think of it as being driven by ego, but after the way you went on about how you 'proved' your art against BJJers, etc, there really is no other conclusion.

Instead of trying to do things your own way, any real student would be looking more towards what the head of their art says to do. And again, in regards to Gyokko ryu ichimonji no kamae that would mean looking to what Mr Hatsumi has produced rather than a lower ranked teacher.

There is a lot of wrong information out there. Some of seems to be spread by your teacher. A lot of it probably comes from Stephen Hayes. Since that is the case, why would anyone think that it is ok with Mr Hatsumi to train with Mr Hayes? After all, Mr Hatsumi ordered Mr Hayes' name to be taken down during the middle of class in full view of everyone there. He does not even seem to have done that with Mr Manaka or Mr Tanemura.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

You see? That is the problem. You just wrote a huge attack on me for showing how wrong you were.

Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan produced a DVD on the Gyokko ryu. I would think that what he had shown in this video would be something you would want to look for when you want to see what Ichimonji from that school should look like. Instead, you refuse and attack me for even suggesting it.

Um actually dude...you didn't prove anything. Look:

...instead of a fudoken at the crook of the elbow.

... and one where it is down near the elbow of the other arm.

My sensei mentioned the same one Devil did. He just said its not the only one. Others here are saying its not the only one. The one Devil Hanzo mentioned has been mentioned by all here to be from Gyokko Ryu, my sensei says its from Gyokku Ryu and low and behold, your telling me that I am wrong...because it can be seen on a Gyokku Ryu video.

So what is your disagreement?
Do you even read before you type?
yeesh!

There is a lot of wrong information out there. Some of seems to be spread by your teacher.

Again the insults against my teacher.
So what was the wrong info...are you now saying it IS NOT from Gyokku Ryu? WTF?


LOL Whatever man.
Enjoy your "self defence" training.

 

[Mr. E]

My sensei mentioned the same one Devil did. He just said its not the only one.

But it is the only one on the DVD by Mr Hatsumi. We all know those DVDs are not to learn from, but to be used as a form of reference. So why not use them as such?

Instead you ask me to come to your dojo and tell things to your face. Aren't we both a bit old for challenge matches and other testosterone- driven behavior? All these personel attacks like trying to say I learn from videos, the call to meet you in person- these are not the sort of things I think your soke would approve of if he could read it.

And if you think that this reflects poorly on the Bujinkan, you can't blame me and you can't blame your soke. It was you who started in on the attacks.

So why don't you leave it alone so we can discuss the matter of training with Mr Hayes?

 

[Rubber Tanto]

But it is the only one on the DVD by Mr Hatsumi.

Hang on...in case I am misunderstanding you. Did you say the video was of Gyokku ryu only or on ALL of the 9 ryu?

Instead you ask me to come to your dojo and tell things to your face. Aren't we both a bit old for challenge matches and other testosterone- driven behavior?

Not at all. Takamatsu sensei was still sparring when he was in his 40s and 50s. I'm only 35...there's still some bite in me! :whip1: Besides what better way to say who's training is effective and whos is based on theory?

All these personel attacks like trying to say I learn from videos, the call to meet you in person- these are not the sort of things I think your soke would approve of if he could read it.

And if you think that this reflects poorly on the Bujinkan, you can't blame me and you can't blame your soke. It was you who started in on the attacks.

Dude...I asked my sensei for some input on this discussion and you decided to label him a second rate teacher even though he said the same thing as the guy you chipped in to defend. If you think that didn't start in on teh attacks then you need to take a good look at yourself.

As for my dojo. we have a history of pressure testing our taijutsu. We are none too concerened with testing what we know, regardless of the results. If you feel intimaidated by testing what you know, don't try and turn me into a thug, just because I was willing to stand by the integrity of the man I call my teacher and you chose to insult.

Nevertheless, yes continue insulting and putting down Hayes. If that is what you wish.

 

[Mr. E]

Hang on...in case I am misunderstanding you. Did you say the video was of Gyokku ryu only or on ALL of the 9 ryu?

That is what Devil Hanzo said he was learning. And can you point me to something produced by Mr Hatsumi that has something called ichimonji no kamae as a stance? Not ichi no kamae from the Togakure ryu or Seigan no kamae from either the Koto or the Kukishin ryu. I am talking about something produced and controlled by Mr Hatsumi that shows something called ichimonji no kamae as Devil Hanzo describes. I do not want something done by any of his students on either a web site, video or personal comment. I want to check with the source. This may not sound like an important point, but just because you don't understand how it can be important does not mean that it is not.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

That is what Devil Hanzo said he was learning.

What?

You said that the kamae hatsumi is showing is the kamae. I pointed out that others say there a various different forms of the same stance among the ryu. You said that the DVD shows the only version of that kamae. And all I asked you was if the dvd was for ALL 9 ryu. If it isn't that you are just wasting bandwidth.

I didn't ask you what Devil is learning.

And can you point me to something produced by Mr Hatsumi that has something called ichimonji no kamae as a stance? Not ichi no kamae from the Togakure ryu or Seigan no kamae from either the Koto or the Kukishin ryu. I am talking about something produced and controlled by Mr Hatsumi that shows something called ichimonji no kamae as Devil Hanzo describes.

No I can't. Sorry. I can't even find a picture on teh net of anyone in the bujinkan in ichi no kamae (only 3 pictures from a kendo school) and not one picture of anyone in the bujinkan in seigan no kamae without a sword. So no at present moment I cannot. I did find many pictures of bujinkan people in the two versions of Ichimonji no kamae as described earlier though.

Wow...All these high ranked people keep going to japan...doing the wrong stances from the kihon happo and still getting rank from soke. He's not even bothering to correct them on their basic kamae...Go figure.

I do not want something done by any of his students on either a web site, video or personal comment. I want to check with the source. This may not sound like an important point, but just because you don't understand how it can be important does not mean that it is not.

The best I can do is go through the books we have at our dojo tomorrow morning. Other than that...I don't buddy...why don't you go to the source, since you want it so bad...or better yet...get on the matts with someone high ranked in the BJK and ...here's an idea ...train in this art.