Oh really?

[Doc_Jude]

Why would you doubt that? If he said ichimonji no kamae was done the EXACT same way seigan no kamae was, then it's NOT ichimonji no kamae! I know for a fact he never said that, because it's incorrect, and clearly as soke he knows the difference between ichimonji and seigan.

Pick up a Hayes book and look at his ichimonji. It's almost identical to seigan. If you were told that was ichimonji, then what's seigan? I'd paste a picture but after searching yahoo, google, and metacrawler, I found not ONE picture of seigan or ichimonji that was actually good kamae.

Wow. I guess that Soke's opinion of the Internet may have actually been right, huh?

 

[kaizasosei]

i think that ichimonji is more supposed to be level like a straight line
seigan would cover the opponents line of sight pointing hand straight to opponents eyes...
am i correct? i can't recall ever learning more about the differences.
i know that name seigan is a very popular kamae from sword arts.

j

 

[stephen]

Is it April 1st already???


</Double Click on Time>
</Look at System Calendar>
</Shrug>
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</Get Popcorn>

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I can't recall having heard the term seigan being used outside sword and spear training. That's not to say I've never heard it being used otherwise.

 

[benkyoka]

I can't recall having heard the term seigan being used outside sword and spear training. That's not to say I've never heard it being used otherwise.

There is seigan no kamae in the unarmed portion of kukishin ryu.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

I'd paste a picture but after searching yahoo, google, and metacrawler, I found not ONE picture of seigan or ichimonji that was actually good kamae.

Well what about this one:

I was under the imprression there were different positions of ichimonji from different ryu. Am I mistaken?

So is this ichimonji or not? The website claims it to be ichimonji...and it's takamatsu-sensei doing it. I'm taking a wild guess that whatever kamae it is, he has a pretty good idea how it should look

And then this:

 

[Mr. E]

So is this ichimonji or not? The website claims it to be ichimonji...and it's takamatsu-sensei doing it. I'm taking a wild guess that whatever kamae it is, he has a pretty good idea how it should look

The question should be, are they doing seigan no kamae and someone else said they were doing Ichimonji no kamae?

Even I know that there is a stance with the arm straight and the rear hand up near the face. But if you look at things like the Gyokko ryu DVD, what are they saying is Ichimonji.

Not a web site by a student. I think you should be looking at what your soke does and what he himself calls it. Is he saying that this is Seigan or Ichimonji?

 

[MarkBarlow]

I'm showing my age (and Stephan Hayes, too) but I remember back in the mid 70's visiting the House of T'ang, outside Atlanta. Hayes Sensei was teaching ninjutsu and offering to teach the secrets of invisibility. 30 years later and I can still see him.

 

[Devil_Hanzo]

I was under the imprression there were different positions of ichimonji from different ryu. Am I mistaken?

Yes, you are. Ichimonji no kamae is from Gyokko ryu. There is only ONE way to do it. This is the problem with the Bujinkan, everything is grapevine passed from person to person and no one has ever stopped it. It comes with having so many people, maintaining quality in teaching becomes difficult.

I know the other two kans have meetings with all the teachers just to go over every technique and make sure they're all on the same page with each other and with their prospective kancho. This makes sure that every teacher is correctly passing down what their kancho taught them, and makes sure no one got confused over the years and changed up the technique to something different, thus ruining the teachings.

I know Hatsumi-sensei is very relaxed and lenient in his teaching style, which is great. It's his organization he can do what he wants. Unfortunately now due to that lack of control he has a lot of students who have no idea what ichimonji no kamae is, who then post pictures of seigan and label it ichimonji probably because they learned that from reading Hayes books back in the day. If you set foot into ANY of the thousands of Bujinkan dojos in the world and say, "Show me ichimonji no kamae", under absolutely NO circumstance should anyone's kamae look different from the next persons. How do you know if what you're learning is correct if teachers in the SAME organization all do it differently? You don't. They'll just say, "You can do ichimonji laying on your back or upside down! As long as the feeling of the space around you is controlled with the mindset of ichimonji no kamae, you're doing it correctly".

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Yes, you are. Ichimonji no kamae is from Gyokko ryu. There is only ONE way to do it.

Wrong.

The picture of Takamatsu RT posted demonstrates the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji. Contrary to popular belief, it's not a gang sign. Heh.

If you set foot into ANY of the thousands of Bujinkan dojos in the world and say, "Show me ichimonji no kamae", under absolutely NO circumstance should anyone's kamae look different from the next persons.

Not to mention, there should be at least 50 percent women participating at any given training session.

How do you know if what you're learning is correct if teachers in the SAME organization all do it differently?

You find the person who is the least full of crap, and then you go with him.

 

[DWeidman]

Yes, you are. Ichimonji no kamae is from Gyokko ryu.

Where did you get this Richard? I mean - to make that kind of statement means you KNOW what all the kamae from the other 8 schools are, right?

For the record, I have it under GOOD authority that you are wrong on this one.

Of course, I don't have all the densho. I assume you do?

-Daniel

 

[Bujingodai]

Hey can we argue what Shizen no Kamae looks like now? I think we're getting a little hung up on semantics. Was this thread not about where and who you can train with?

 

[Mr. E]

The picture of Takamatsu RT posted demonstrates the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji.

So if they were practicing the kata of the Togakure ryu, it would be correct.

But it is my understanding that most Bujinkan people do not even know the kata from the Togakure ryu. And typically if it is taught it follows the Gyokko and Koto ryus.

So it seems to me that Devil Hanzo is complaining about being taught Gyokko ryu kata while in a kamae from another school.

This may not seem like much to the typical Bujinkan member. Don't get me wrong- I have a few good friends who study in the Bujinkan and I exchange lessons with them sometimes. But the vast majority of people I have run across from the Bujinkan just do not seem to pay attention to the important little details of a rich martial art.

In the sword work I do, there are forms where the sword points at the heart at the beggining and others where the sword starts pointed at the eyes. If you do point the sword just a few degrees off so that it points at the other target you will be corrected. Do it too many times and the teacher will give up on you. There is a reason for why one starts pointed at one area and the other at another target. Most Bujinkan folks I have run across are the types that I think would hear the admonation against pointing at the wrong target and then would just roll their eyes and say, "what-ever."

If you wonder why some of Mr Hatsumi's ex-students seem to get more respect in the Japanese martial arts community, you need only look at these types of students that seem attracted to the Bujinkan.

And in terms of the Gyokko ryu ichimonji vs Togakure ryu, it is my understanding that not only was the Koto ryu started a soke of the Gyokko ryu, and they were passed down side by side, but also that the Togakure ryu was part of this as well. So it seems that for a few generations they did not throw out all the kamae except one to simplify things. They kept the Gyokko ryu ichimonji and did the kata in that stance while doing Koto ryu kata in Seigan. I assume that these people, and Mr Hatsumi, knew what they were doing when they taught two seperate but similar kamae instead of teaching just one for all schools. So while we may not know the reason why they are different, that does not mean that there is no reason, no benefit for practicing the Gyokko ryu in a Gyokko ryu kamae instead of something from the Koto ryu or Togakure ryu.

But whose fault is this and is Mr Hatsumi doing something to correct it? It looks to me that Devil Hanzo has listed how something that is different from what is being taught by the soke of the Bujinkan. I just looked on a DVD produced by Mr Hatsumi and the kamae he has on his Gyokko ryu tape is how Devil Hanzo describes how it should be. So it is other people that are spreading the wrong thing. And at least one person recently discussed seems to be hosting seminars for Stephen Hayes. It seems to me that Mr Hayes got things wrong and his influence was very strong in the Bujinkan. Now Mr Hatsumi has removed his name from the Bujinkan. Maybe it is because he wants to get the correct information out as he wants it and not as a mistaken student does things.

Finally, as long as I have the wrath of a lot of Bujinkan members I think I should point out that this type of thread is not something I would expect from a typical school headquartered in Japan, but it does not surprise me considering that it about the Bujinkan. Mr Weidman, if you had questions about what your soke wanted, why didn't you try to find out by discrete inquiries to those with Mr Hatsumi's ear instead of asking a bunch of people on the internet? I recently took a look at some of the threads about the removal of Mr Hayes and the honbu administrator clearly asked people to stop making a fuss over the matter. In my experience, if someone in a koryu kenjutsu system had a question about something like this, they would not throw out their dirty laundry for the rest of the world to see and let people who have never even met the soke to comment on what he wishes. I know this is not going to make me popular. But if you really want people in the Japanese martial art community to take your soke seriously you should consider how this type of thing reflects on him.

 

[newtothe dark]

Wow heavy response MR E tell us what you really feel. hehe

 

[Rubber Tanto]

So if they were practicing the kata of the Togakure ryu, it would be correct.

But it is my understanding that most Bujinkan people do not even know the kata from the Togakure ryu. And typically if it is taught it follows the Gyokko and Koto ryus.

So it seems to me that Devil Hanzo is complaining about being taught Gyokko ryu kata while in a kamae from another school.

And so what? Don't try and change the rant. Devil Hanzo's original gripe was that people should not train with SKH because he does techniques wrong, and the example was that he was doing seigan no kamae and calling it ichimonji. But now we show a picture of Soke and takamatsu doing them and people confirm that yes these are ichimonji and you try to put a wrong kamae from wrong school spin on it. Ninja please.

And I don't think Daniel is making a fuss about SKH leaving the bujinkan. He just asked if its okay or not to train with him and if not, what was the official word.

Was it really that hard.

 

[Mr. E]

And so what? Don't try and change the rant. Devil Hanzo's original gripe was that people should not train with SKH because he does techniques wrong, and the example was that he was doing seigan no kamae and calling it ichimonji. But now we show a picture of Soke and takamatsu doing them and people confirm that yes these are ichimonji and you try to put a wrong kamae from wrong school spin on it. Ninja please.

I don't think you understand.

You are talking about ichimonji from the Togakure ryu. And I really doubt that Devil Hanzo learned kata from the Togakure ryu as a beggining student. Even I know that kata from that school are usually taught after Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu. So he was being taught something that was either Seigan no kamae from the Koto ryu while being told it was Ichimonji from the Gyokko ryu, or Ichimonji from the Togakure ryu.

In either case, he was learning forms such as koku in stances that were not from the Gyokko ryu. That is not what Mr Hatsumi shows on the videos I have seen.

So it is wrong, unless you think that Mr Hatsumi is mistaken.

Togakure ryu Ichimonji would be correct if begginers were learning Togakure ryu kata instead of things like the Kihon Happo from Gyokko ryu. But since that is not the case, then it looks like Mr Hayes is wrong and has been a big influence in the passing along of wrong information.

So I would think that this may be a huge reason why Mr Hatsumi does not want people to train with his ex-students like Mr Hayes.

And I don't think Daniel is making a fuss about SKH leaving the bujinkan. He just asked if its okay or not to train with him and if not, what was the official word.

Why is he asking a bunch of people on the internet instead of sending his questions up the chain of command? Even people outside the Bujinkan know that Mr Hatsumi has made quite a few statements about the dangers of the internet. Aside from the flame wars, there is also the very real fact that if you want to know your soke's wishes you should ask him or someone close to him instead of just anyone with a modem and some spare time.

 

[Devil_Hanzo]

Wrong.

The picture of Takamatsu RT posted demonstrates the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji.

There is no such thing as the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji no kamae. Ichimonji no kamae is done ONE way, from ONE ryu: Gyokko. What Takamatsu was doing in that picture was ICHI NO KAMAE from Togakure ryu. Not the same kamae. Valiant effort, though. See this is the problem, people make mistakes and say them as fact over the internet and other inexperienced people will believe it. "BUT RICK UR SAYING WAT U THINK R FAX 2!!!!1!" Yeah, because I'm right, and I know I'm right. On this topic anyway. Please don't spread misinformation.

Where did you get this Richard? I mean - to make that kind of statement means you KNOW what all the kamae from the other 8 schools are, right?

If you train in the art, you should know where the kamae you're using come from. Ichimonji is from gyokko ryu. Seigan is from koto ryu. They are not interchangeable. There is only one way to do them. I know the Bujinkan is all about changing everything ever so slightly due to poor instruction and saying, "It's not wrong, you can do it this way too", but you can't.

Do you know where 'kogeki no kamae' comes from?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

There is no such thing as the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji no kamae. Ichimonji no kamae is done ONE way, from ONE ryu: Gyokko. What Takamatsu was doing in that picture was ICHI NO KAMAE from Togakure ryu. Not the same kamae. Valiant effort, though.

I seem to remember hearing something different from Sveneric(?) two years ago.

 

[DWeidman]

There is no such thing as the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji no kamae. Ichimonji no kamae is done ONE way, from ONE ryu: Gyokko. What Takamatsu was doing in that picture was ICHI NO KAMAE from Togakure ryu. Not the same kamae. Valiant effort, though. See this is the problem, people make mistakes and say them as fact over the internet and other inexperienced people will believe it. "BUT RICK UR SAYING WAT U THINK R FAX 2!!!!1!" Yeah, because I'm right, and I know I'm right. On this topic anyway. Please don't spread misinformation.


If you train in the art, you should know where the kamae you're using come from. Ichimonji is from gyokko ryu. Seigan is from koto ryu. They are not interchangeable. There is only one way to do them. I know the Bujinkan is all about changing everything ever so slightly due to poor instruction and saying, "It's not wrong, you can do it this way too", but you can't.

Do you know where 'kogeki no kamae' comes from?

*yawn*

Densho please (all 9 schools). If you don't have them, just say so.

Or give your source.

-Daniel

 

[DWeidman]

So it seems to me that Devil Hanzo is complaining about being taught Gyokko ryu kata while in a kamae from another school.

That is what you got from his posts? Wow.

...So while we may not know the reason why they are different, that does not mean that there is no reason, no benefit for practicing the Gyokko ryu in a Gyokko ryu kamae instead of something from the Koto ryu or Togakure ryu.

Strawman. Who on earth said differently. Way to fight a battle with yourself.

Now Mr Hatsumi has removed his name from the Bujinkan. Maybe it is because he wants to get the correct information out as he wants it and not as a mistaken student does things.

Maybe you should stop with your conjecture. Honestly, unless you have had a conversation with the man about his intentions, then you are just taking WILD *** GUESSES.

Mr Weidman, if you had questions about what your soke wanted

Soke has been clear about his wishes. I have had a face to face conversation with Phil Legare regarding the "Steve" incident. With that said, it was NEVER mentioned that training with Steve was taboo. Only that Steve had moved on and was no longer "In" the BJK.

Is that clear enough?

And then... to muddy the water - you say this:

"And just to remind people, I know that Mr Hatsumi has stated that he does not want people who follow him to learn from people who are ex-students of his. There seems to be no specific comments in public about the Jinenkan or Genbukan. But people seem to understand that holding a seminar for the head of the Jinenkan would go against Mr Hatsumi's wishes. It seems clear that Mr Hayes is an ex student as well. So it would seem that the same situation applies."

Seem .... seems.... seem. For someone NOT in the BJK, you are doing a lot of "seeming" on our behalf (without any direct knowledge).

I started this thread because perhaps Soke has been DIRECT about it since I last talked to Phil. If so... please say so.

Or.... we can listen to Mr. E's conjecture -- he can tell us what he "seems" to think Soke thinks about it...

-Daniel