Not effective?

[Tez3]

SPX, you write about MMA, do you fight, train, ref or are otherwise involved in it? You posted yourself that you haven't done martial arts for 20 odd years and then as a child but you are telling us you 'know about Bunkai' but think you can do better things, how do you know that if you don't train? How do you know about MMA other than as an armchair or cageside observer? How do you know what Bisping is like if you don't know how to do MMA yourself? he had his pro debut on our shows, fought twice, pants each time. Not a huge lot of improvement now, we have many better but who aren't full time fighters.

We've told you that TKD is trained properly in many places but you don't seem to want to believe it, I'm not sure how you think it should be done. Very good experienced TKDists have given their opinions but you don't seem happy with them, how can you also write about TKD if you haven't trained other than as a child?

As for British MMA you mention fighters who don't fight now or are on the way to retiring, I think you are probably a few years out of date, I'd be interested to also know what you know about European and Russian MMA.

 

[SPX]

SPX, you write about MMA, do you fight, train, ref or are otherwise involved in it?

Do you think most journalists in the MMA community are also fighters/trainers/refs etc? They are not. They are journalists. In fact, it's the essence of journalism to be an observer, to document . . . not to be directly involved. You can learn a lot about the sport that way. I've learned enough to write about it.

You posted yourself that you haven't done martial arts for 20 odd years and then as a child. . .

Maybe I should amend that to say that I haven't been a regular participant since that time. I have been intermittently involved. In 2005 I trained in judo for 6 months before injuring my back (and injury which still lingers today). In 2009, I very briefly trained in muay Thai, but it wasn't for me. My heart is still with the TMAs. In 2010 I joined an ITF TKD school and was involved for 4 months, before walking out in disgust. I then tried to find another school before eventually giving up on the entire organization in my area. It was undoubtedly this final experience which makes me so passionate about safeguarding TKD from those who would water it down. It's a bad feeling when you can't find anywhere suitable to train.

Throughout the years I have continued to train independently to varying degrees.

. . . but you are telling us you 'know about Bunkai' but think you can do better things, how do you know that if you don't train?

You asked me if I knew what kata are for . . . do I "know about Bunkai." Yes, I know about it. Again, I'm a journalist. Research a big part of the job.

How do you know about MMA other than as an armchair or cageside observer?

Again, that's the job.

Do you think Ariel Helwani is a fighter/trainer/ref/judge etc? No, he's a journalist. And he won MMA journalist of the year last year at the world MMA awards.

Also, I'll point out that we use sources. I've talked to many MMA fighters, some on multiple occasions. Ben Henderson, Brian Stann, Sarah Kaufman, Mark Bocek, Frank Shamrock, Gerald Harris, Kenny Florian, Matt Lindland, Rosi Sexton, Julie Kedzie, Jens Pulver, Rick Hawn, Miesha Tate and Roxanne Modafferi are a few that come to mind. I've also talked to trainers, like Mark Dellagrotte, and judges, like "Doc" Hamilton.

You learn the sport through their experiences, knowledge, and expertise. Again, journalism. That's what it's all about.

How do you know what Bisping is like if you don't know how to do MMA yourself?

I don't have to be a basketball player to know how good LeBron James is or to know how he stacks up against the competition. I only have to understand the sport.

Also, I should point out that I make a side income wagering on MMA. I apparently understand it well enough to be successful at that.

he had his pro debut on our shows, fought twice, pants each time. Not a huge lot of improvement now

Bisping has improved greatly just in the years since coming into the UFC, so he HAS to have improved greatly since he was fighting in local shows in the UK.

. . . we have many better but who aren't full time fighters.

You never know how good someone is until you put them against the best.

Good fighters in smaller organizations are called "prospects." Sometimes they get called up to the major leagues. When they do, some of them deliver on the promise they showed and prove themselves worthy . . . others fizzle out and fail to live up to the hype.

I'm sure there are at least a handle of fighters who are fighting in the UK's bigger shows who could cut it in the UFC. There are plenty who could not. But there's only one way to know. This is the same in any sport.

We've told you that TKD is trained properly in many places but you don't seem to want to believe it, I'm not sure how you think it should be done. Very good experienced TKDists have given their opinions but you don't seem happy with them, how can you also write about TKD if you haven't trained other than as a child?

I didn't say I didn't believe it. I just said that there is too much McDojoism going on, regardless of what's happening in the good schools. So if you have a good school that you have found and that you train at, I envy you. Congratulations. Don't take my negative comments to mean that they apply to your school.

As for British MMA you mention fighters who don't fight now or are on the way to retiring, I think you are probably a few years out of date

Every fighter that I mentioned is actively employed by the UFC, actively fighting, actively winning, and should still have several years ahead of them.

I'd be interested to also know what you know about European and Russian MMA.

Is the UK not Europe?

And okay, you got me, I don't follow Russian MMA much.

 

[Tez3]

The MMA journalists here are involved in MMA in that they have or still do train, you again are speaking of Americans as if it's only Americans that matter. Rosi Sexton, Pete Irving, Paul McVeigh and Ian Freeman are just four who write on MMA here. John Joe O'Regan who is the digital and online editor of Fighters Only trains.

http://www.fightersonlymag.com/

I think if you are a journalist you should take the wider view of what's happening in the rest of the world, MMA in Russia has been going a very long time, some amazingly tough fighters there. Poland has a huge MMA following in it's own shows, again very tough fighters. Germany has big promotions, UFC didn't do well there when it had a show. The Netherlands of course is the home of amazing kick boxers and has for it's size a lot of good MMA fighters. France now that MMA is legal has it's home fighters fighting at home, very good fighters too. We took a fighter to Italy, good fighters there also. All not clamouring to get into the UFC. The UFC is what it is, it's showbiz, it's brash, big money and threats. It swamps others, eats them up like the corporation it is. It's a for profit, moneymaking machine, not all of us want to be swallowed up by that machine, we don't worship at the altar of the UFC. There's more excellent fighters not in it than are. Far from being me being anti American I think you are making the classic mistake of assuming that anything that doesn't happen in America isn't worth anything.

I'm sure you can make money betting on UFC fighters, it's not going to be hard is it? Actually assessing unknowns, rbinging them on, spotting talent, that's the trick.

Dan Hardy has four losses in his last four fights.
Ross Pearson has told us he's looking to retire, he's won two from his last four fights.
Daley is fighting on other shows, he gets fines for being overweight and is unreliable.

Terry Etim has only fought in the States once.

 

[SPX]

The MMA journalists here are involved in MMA in that they have or still do train, you again are speaking of Americans as if it's only Americans that matter. Rosi Sexton, Pete Irving, Paul McVeigh and Ian Freeman are just four who write on MMA here. John Joe O'Regan who is the digital and online editor of Fighters Only trains.

http://www.fightersonlymag.com/

I like Fighters Only. It's a quality mag.

Also, I'm not saying that NO journalists train. I'm saying that it's not necessary to be able to write competently about the sport. Guys like Ariel Helwani and John Morgan are among the best in the business, but that's because of their journalistic training, not MMA training.

With that said, if it's not clear, I'm actively looking for another school right now. I won't settle for just anything, though.

I think if you are a journalist you should take the wider view of what's happening in the rest of the world

I don't disagree. The problem is that there are only so many hours in the day and I have other things I do in my life than just pay attention to MMA. I have another job, for one. I'm also in school. But yeah, it's best to have as global of a view as possible. That's why I do my best to keep up with BAMMA, KSW, M1, DREAM etc as best I can with the time that I have.

Right now at this moment my time is dedicated to educating myself about the flyweights, a division I admittedly have not paid a lot of attention to thus far, because I have to write a piece introducing the top flyweights to the mag's readers.

MMA in Russia has been going a very long time, some amazingly tough fighters there. Poland has a huge MMA following in it's own shows, again very tough fighters. Germany has big promotions, UFC didn't do well there when it had a show. The Netherlands of course is the home of amazing kick boxers and has for it's size a lot of good MMA fighters. France now that MMA is legal has it's home fighters fighting at home, very good fighters too. We took a fighter to Italy, good fighters there also. All not clamouring to get into the UFC. The UFC is what it is, it's showbiz, it's brash, big money and threats. It swamps others, eats them up like the corporation it is. It's a for profit, moneymaking machine, not all of us want to be swallowed up by that machine, we don't worship at the altar of the UFC. There's more excellent fighters not in it than are. Far from being me being anti American I think you are making the classic mistake of assuming that anything that doesn't happen in America isn't worth anything.

Okay, a few things here. . .

1. Yes, there are many good fighters from all parts of the globe. The UFC itself is a testament to this. It has fighters on its roster from the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan, China, Korea, Germany, Croatia and Brazil, among others. These fighters had to start somewhere local in order to get where they are today.

2. Yes, the UFC is about money. It's a business, as is any MMA organization.

3. I certainly HOPE there are some excellent fighters outside of the UFC, because as older fighters retire and poorly performing fighters get cut, those slots have to be filled by promising outsiders. Also, it goes without saying that there are more good fighters outside of the UFC than in it . . . there are less than 100 spots on the roster for any particular weight class, but thousands of MMA fighters throughout the world. But that doesn't change the fact that the very best are in the organization. What heavyweights are going to beat Junior Dos Santos? What LHWs are going to beat Jon Jones? And so the argument continues down the line with Georges St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, etc. . .

4. Since you bring up Polish MMA, Lukasz Jurkowski is almost single-handedly responsible for getting me interested in Taekwondo again. I wouldn't call him a GREAT fighter, but he's good and a good ambassador for TKD in MMA.

I'm sure you can make money betting on UFC fighters, it's not going to be hard is it?

Well it's not as easy as just picking winners. In order to be profitable over the long run, you also have to be able to be reasonably accurate in determining the percentages by which each fighter will win (or lose). It's not like every bet is an even money bet.

Dan Hardy has four losses in his last four fights.

I know, it's sad. Needs better wrestling.

Ross Pearson has told us he's looking to retire, he's won two from his last four fights.

I haven't heard that he's looking to retire, but that's my point about coming to the UFC and facing better competition. Guys can look beastly in smaller organizations and come to the UFC and be forced to settle for being mid-level competition.

In any case, Pearson's doing fine. The LW division is incredibly competitive. This isn't boxing where guys go 20-0. Losses happen. He's 4-2 in the organization overall.

Daley is fighting on other shows, he gets fines for being overweight and is unreliable.

Yes, he's a wildcard. That's why he got cut from the UFC, for sucker punching Josh Koscheck after a fight. You never know what the guy's gonna do. But when he's on his A game he's pretty good at knocking fools out.

Terry Etim has only fought in the States once.

But he's fought in the UFC 9 times, including last month, when he beat Edward Faaloloto, winning Submission of the Night, which he's done 4 times in his UFC career. That's great.

 

[Tez3]

I like Fighters Only. It's a quality mag.

Also, I'm not saying that NO journalists train. I'm saying that it's not necessary to be able to write competently about the sport. Guys like Ariel Helwani and John Morgan are among the best in the business, but that's because of their journalistic training, not MMA training.

With that said, if it's not clear, I'm actively looking for another school right now. I won't settle for just anything, though.



I don't disagree. The problem is that there are only so many hours in the day and I have other things I do in my life than just pay attention to MMA. I have another job, for one. I'm also in school. But yeah, it's best to have as global of a view as possible. That's why I do my best to keep up with BAMMA, KSW, M1, DREAM etc as best I can with the time that I have.

Right now at this moment my time is dedicated to educating myself about the flyweights, a division I admittedly have not paid a lot of attention to thus far, because I have to write a piece introducing the top flyweights to the mag's readers.




Okay, a few things here. . .

1. Yes, there are many good fighters from all parts of the globe. The UFC itself is a testament to this. It has fighters on its roster from the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan, China, Korea, Germany, Croatia and Brazil, among others. These fighters had to start somewhere local in order to get where they are today.

2. Yes, the UFC is about money. It's a business, as is any MMA organization.

3. I certainly HOPE there are some excellent fighters outside of the UFC, because as older fighters retire and poorly performing fighters get cut, those slots have to be filled by promising outsiders. Also, it goes without saying that there are more good fighters outside of the UFC than in it . . . there are less than 100 spots on the roster for any particular weight class, but thousands of MMA fighters throughout the world. But that doesn't change the fact that the very best are in the organization. What heavyweights are going to beat Junior Dos Santos? What LHWs are going to beat Jon Jones? And so the argument continues down the line with Georges St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, etc. . .

4. Since you bring up Polish MMA, Lukasz Jurkowski is almost single-handedly responsible for getting me interested in Taekwondo again. I wouldn't call him a GREAT fighter, but he's good and a good ambassador for TKD in MMA.

Well it's not as easy as just picking winners. In order to be profitable over the long run, you also have to be able to be reasonably accurate in determining the percentages by which each fighter will win (or lose). It's not like every bet is an even money bet.



I know, it's sad. Needs better wrestling.



I haven't heard that he's looking to retire, but that's my point about coming to the UFC and facing better competition. Guys can look beastly in smaller organizations and come to the UFC and be forced to settle for being mid-level competition.

In any case, Pearson's doing fine. The LW division is incredibly competitive. This isn't boxing where guys go 20-0. Losses happen. He's 4-2 in the organization overall.



Yes, he's a wildcard. That's why he got cut from the UFC, for sucker punching Josh Koscheck after a fight. You never know what the guy's gonna do. But when he's on his A game he's pretty good at knocking fools out.



But he's fought in the UFC 9 times, including last month, when he beat Edward Faaloloto, winning Submission of the Night, which he's done 4 times in his UFC career. That's great.

Daley doesn't just sucker punch male fighters I'm afraid. He is actively disliked here.

My point is that you seem intent on telling me about people I know, some of whom since they were youngsters starting out, you seem to lecture us on here, about TKD clubs, Bunkai which I'm sorry you may know of but don't know, and about MMA and generally acting in a way that makes you look like you think you are superior. You may not realise it but many of your posts come across this way I'm afraid.

Guys from all over have told you about TKD but you won't believe them stating your experience as if it's the defining one. You won't seem to believe eithr than getting to the UFC isn't the be all and end of of many fighters here and in Europe, that they prefer the high quality though to you lesser know promotions. I reiterate...the UFC is McDonalds not Michelin starred, it never will be. best paid fightrs, best publicity, best profits of course, best fighters not necessarily, that's alway open to debate. The UFc is only the fan boys wetdream not every fighters.

 

[Tez3]

I like Fighters Only. It's a quality mag.

Also, I'm not saying that NO journalists train. I'm saying that it's not necessary to be able to write competently about the sport. Guys like Ariel Helwani and John Morgan are among the best in the business, but that's because of their journalistic training, not MMA training. Quote

[h=2]

MMA journalist Ariel Helwani to have amateur first MMA fight[/h]

MMA journalist Ariel Helwani revealed today he is scheduled to have an amateur MMA bout in January 2012. The 29 year old recently awarded MMA journalist of the year award for the second successive year suprised many when he revealed he has been training for two years.

Helwani commented: "I've kept this low-key obviously it just started off just as a keep fit thing and also self defence really" he smiled adding: "I live in New York now it's a dangerous place sometimes".

When asked where he'd trained the Canadian responded "mainly at Fight House because it's near where I live though I obviously travel a lot following UFC events. I've done a few sessions at Jackson's, Blackhouse, Team Quest and a few other one-offs like at the Rough House with UFC 138 being close-by".

When asked why he'd started the training Ariel said: "well there is the fact that I get quite a lot of spare time on the road, I enjoy it and it's a way of challenging myself". Probing about his skillset revealed: "I've learned a few tricks. Look it's obviously just a hobby but my thai kicks are reasonable and my dirty boxing technique particularly the overhand right are alright".

When asked about his amateur bout in January he revealed: "it's just a way of test what I've learned. It gives me something to aim for. The match is against a guy at a similar level from the Renzo Gracie gym (home of Frankie Edgar among others). It won't be filmed or anything".

When asked which weight division the clash will be Ariel said: "it's at lightweight". The journalist profile raised considerably after a series of run-ins with Rampage Jackson. Asked if he would one day consider a match up with the former light heavy weight champion he joked: "sure we can do that if he gets down to lightweight".

​

 

[SPX]

My point is that you seem intent on telling me about people I know, some of whom since they were youngsters starting out

Well for everyone I've mentioned, their present-day skills are on display every time they step into the cage for all the world to see. And when it comes to assessing a fighter's abilities all that matters is how well they fight inside the cage on fight night. It doesn't matter how well they do in training, what they like to eat for breakfast, what their favorite movies are . . . it only matters how they perform those two or three times a year when they fight.

And in any case, you've made some questionable statements. You basically said that Bisping was an okay fighter before he came to the UFC . . . nothing special. You do realize that when he entered the UFC his professional record was 10-0, that he was the reigning Cage Warriors LHW champ, and that he was a former Cage Rage LHW champ, right? (The latter of which he was never beaten for . . . he defended it and then vacated the title to move on to other pastures.) In fact, he didn't lose a single time in his professional career until he dropped a split decision to Rashad Evans in his 15th fight.

So when you make statements about how Bisping was "nothing special" it harms your credibility and leads one to believe that you have some sort of anti-UFC agenda that keeps you from being objective.

you seem to lecture us on here, about TKD clubs

I have expressed an opinion, an opinion that is held by many, many others, even including many TKD instructors. Maybe I should ask them to register on MartialTalk since I apparently have no right to talk.

Furthermore, I've said on many occasions that if you have a great school, then awesome. I'm not talking about your school. I'm talking about the ones that are NOT great. And yet, despite that, you continue to bring this up.

Bunkai which I'm sorry you may know of but don't know

I made a statement on the usefulness of forms, a statement which is echoed by many. But again, did you not notice that I said earlier that forms should be kept and that "it's hard to imagine TKD without patterns"?

Again, you seem to have an agenda, one that forces you to be unfair and not actually listen to anything I've said.

and about MMA and generally acting in a way that makes you look like you think you are superior. You may not realise it but many of your posts come across this way I'm afraid.

I can see that.

For the record, I don't think I'm superior.

Also, the only person who has seemed to have any real problem with me is you.

Guys from all over have told you about TKD but you won't believe them stating your experience as if it's the defining one.

I never said it's the defining one. I said that the problem of McDojoism is rampant within TKD, and it is. I would be willing to bet that if polled most of the kinds of posters that you'd find on MartialTalk or MAP would agree.

You won't seem to believe eithr than getting to the UFC isn't the be all and end of of many fighters here and in Europe, that they prefer the high quality though to you lesser know promotions.

I didn't say those promotions aren't high quality. But there's a reason that former Cage Rage champs like Bisping and Anderson Silva are now in the UFC.

I'll put it this way: The UFC is the premiere martial arts organization in the world. You keep using this "McDonalds" analogy, which is fine. I actually like McDonalds. Ate lunch there today in fact.

I don't know how much you follow basketball, but Europe has some good basketball leagues and some very good players. But the NBA is recognized as THE premiere basketball league in the world and those players who wants to play on the biggest stage in the world--the pinnacle of the sport--want a contract with an NBA team. In MMA terms, the UFC is the NBA. That's just the way it is and there's no disputing it. Maybe YOU prefer some other organization, but that doesn't change the OBJECTIVE FACT that within the industry the UFC is regarded as the worldwide leader.

 

[SPX]

MMA journalist Ariel Helwani revealed today he is scheduled to have an amateur MMA bout in January 2012. The 29 year old recently awarded MMA journalist of the year award for the second successive year suprised many when he revealed he has been training for two years.

Okay, well you got me. You can count me in the "many" that he has surprised.

​

 

[Tez3]

Do you know those fighters that Bisping fought in his first ten fights? The very first on P&G, was Steve Matthews, a very inexperienced over weight Army medic who trained with us and was chosen by the promoter who is also our chief instructor. I worked on that show and also the second that Bisping fought, he has had his opponents picked as carefully for him just as Amir Khan has, right until Khan's last fight where he's blaming the ref for being beaten. he fought Epstein twice who has a record of 14-11. John Weir who's record 7 years later is 3-2, Andy Bridges record now again 7 years on is 1-2. Dave Radford record 6 years later 1-3 likewise Miika Mehet 3-4. His first ten fights are wins but wins that were set up, as for being CW champion, I'm afraid to tell you that is acutally nothing, the man who ran Cage Warriors at the time, before he went to prison, made sure that certain belts went to certain fighters. the fights weren't worked but were hand picked opponents. You forget, I think, that I know a lot about Bisping and his family, he has a very persuasive and ambitious father and a brother who likes axes.

The first good fighter that Bisping met was Evans and he got beaten. The general opinion in America I'm reliably informed by posters here is that he's rude, dirty and boring.

I didn't say you were superior, I said I didn't know if you knew but you come across as superior certainly to English readers as I've asked a few people to read, martial arts people and they agree, it;s not about stopping you speaking it's just that you come across to us as very 'loud' if that makes sense. I was going to say very American but think it might be taken the wrong way.

 

[SPX]

Do you know those fighters that Bisping fought in his first ten fights? The very first on P&G, was Steve Matthews, a very inexperienced over weight Army medic who trained with us and was chosen by the promoter who is also our chief instructor. I worked on that show and also the second that Bisping fought, he has had his opponents picked as carefully for him just as Amir Khan has, right until Khan's last fight where he's blaming the ref for being beaten. he fought Epstein twice who has a record of 14-11. John Weir who's record 7 years later is 3-2, Andy Bridges record now again 7 years on is 1-2. Dave Radford record 6 years later 1-3 likewise Miika Mehet 3-4. His first ten fights are wins but wins that were set up, as for being CW champion, I'm afraid to tell you that is acutally nothing, the man who ran Cage Warriors at the time, before he went to prison, made sure that certain belts went to certain fighters. the fights weren't worked but were hand picked opponents. You forget, I think, that I know a lot about Bisping and his family, he has a very persuasive and ambitious father and a brother who likes axes.

You no doubt no more about those guys he fought than I do, as well you should. I only know that he had held two belts and was undefeated.

The same has been said of Bisping in the UFC . . . that he hasn't fought a lot of top-notch opponents. And it's true. And when he HAS, he's gotten beaten--Rashad, Henderson, Silva. (In fact, I thought Hamill beat him, too.) But he's beaten a lot of good, durable guys, like Leben, Kang, Dan Miller, Akiyama and Rivera.

Personally, I gained newfound respect for him after he demolished Jason Miller in his last fight. Miller almost subbed Jake Shields not too long ago, so I expected Miller would give Bisping more trouble in the grappling department, but aside from one takedown and a little top control Miller could do nothing. Bisping's wrestling as come a long way.

The general opinion in America I'm reliably informed by posters here is that he's rude, dirty and boring.

That's true. He's a fighter that fans love to hate.

I didn't say you were superior, I said I didn't know if you knew but you come across as superior

Truthfully, I'm usually not so forceful with my opinions. But I have a few buttons that, when they get touched, I definitely go on the offensive. One of those buttons is any time a TMAer acts like everything is great in TKD Land and there are no problems.

The weird thing is that I usually only have to deal with that sort of thing from non-MMA fans. You, being an MMA fan and involved with the sport to whatever extent that you are, I would think would understand exactly where I'm coming from.

I have talked to a lot of TKD instructors on forums like this one and MAP and they almost always agree that there's a problem with a large segment of not only the TKD population, but the traditional martial arts population as a whole. Many of these instructors (one of which is actually in the UK) are slowly trying to change things, by doing open rules sparring, harder contact, the use of Kudo helmets, and other such tactics. But many of them also say that it's an uphill battle and by making these changes they're losing students and alienating a large percentage of their dues-paying customers.

Again, if your school is already awesome, then great. Be happy. But also be both sympathetic and aware that your experience is not universal.

. . . certainly to English readers as I've asked a few people to read, martial arts people and they agree,

Well like I said, I'm usually not so forceful.

Also, funny enough, I shared the link to this thread with a few acquaintances and they agreed with me that I'm in the right. But then again, everyone has their own opinions.

it;s not about stopping you speaking

Well thanks, I appreciate that.

it's just that you come across to us as very 'loud' if that makes sense.

Yes, it makes sense.

I was going to say very American but think it might be taken the wrong way.

Well I've heard stories about what goes on in English pubs, so I don't think Americans have a lock on being loud and brash. And there are many different kinds of Americans.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not a 'fan' of MMA, I coach, judge, ref, corner and promote as well as train. Not just on our shows either. My TMA is karate and TSD not TKD but I only teach children that, adults it's MMA for various reasons. I'm a huge fan of Iain Abernethy and attend his seminars whenever I can. His understanding of Bunkai is second to none. Read his articles rather than watch the videos to start with, works equally well for TKD.


I think we may disagree with what 'loud' means lol! To us when Americans are loud, it's when they blow their own trumpet. It's not that you aren't right about some things, it's that you don't believe some when they say they do train a certain way and it shows that you are irritated. I don't think anyone here trains in the way you are suggesting is bad, they wouldn't be the type to post here if they did.

 

[SPX]

My TMA is karate and TSD not TKD but I only teach children that, adults it's MMA for various reasons.

Why is that?

I'm a huge fan of Iain Abernethy and attend his seminars whenever I can. His understanding of Bunkai is second to none. Read his articles rather than watch the videos to start with, works equally well for TKD.

When I said that I "know of Bunkai" I was referring to Abernethy's work.

There's also a guy who has done something similar for the ITF patterns:

http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/HaeSul/HaeSul.html

I think we may disagree with what 'loud' means lol! To us when Americans are loud, it's when they blow their own trumpet.

I mostly just pulled out the "I write for an MMA mag" bit because of the question of credibility. No, I'm not a fighter, but I know the sport/industry through my interactions with the sport, i.e. observations, studying what fighters and trainers have said, speaking directly to fighters, speaking to trainers. Also, even though it seems brief, you learn a lot even in only 6 months in a judo club, enough to understand the basics of body mechanics, takedowns, and ground work.

But like I said, really, this is just a hot button issue for me. I always support MMA fighters who come from either a TKD, Karate or Judo background and want to see such fighters better represented in the sport. I know that for that to happen though some things will need to change.

It's not that you aren't right about some things, it's that you don't believe some when they say they do train a certain way and it shows that you are irritated.

I haven't doubted anyone who has said, "Oh, at my school we are very serious/do full contact/do face punches" or whatever. My point is just that a substantial portion of schools are NOT like that. In fact, this isn't even anything new. The contact karate vs no-contact karate debate has been going on for decades.

I don't think anyone here trains in the way you are suggesting is bad, they wouldn't be the type to post here if they did.

Probably not, which is why I come here, to interact with like-minded people.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Another thing to to keep in mind is that a lot of people start tkd for some fun, fitness, flexibility and to learn a bit of basic self defence. There is a huge market for people like this. Hardcore, full contact, sparring is not for everyone. My mates who do MMA are regularly carrying a lot of injuries, bruises, cuts, black eyes etc and that is not for evryone either. People have day jobs, a good friend of mine teaches at a private school and when his employers found out he does MA, they let him know in no uncertain terms that he had better not start arriving at work looking like he has been in a 'fight', he just cant afford to come to work covered in bruises with the occasional black eye. Whilst I personally like doing 'old school' MA, its not what everyone is looking for. As a matter of fact, Id say most people arent looking for that. Where I used to train they had a questionaire you fill in when you join, one of the questions was "why did you start MA?", Id say less than 1% of people wrote "to learn how to fight". I dont have a problem with schools providing what most people want, and if thats what most people want then it only makes sense that thats what most schools provide.

 

[SPX]

I'll say two things on that. . .

1. I am with whoever doesn't want to do full-contact, because I don't either. That's one (of a few) reasons I didn't continue training muay Thai. I don't want to get beat up all the time, break my nose, get black eyes on the regular, etc. But I think that there can be a middle ground. Maybe full contact, but with pads and a kudo helmet. Or just hand and foot pads, but with 70% contact to the body and 30% contact to the head. I don't know the magic formula, but I feel like there has to be something for people who aren't prepared to go "all in" but at the same time want something that better prepares a person to give and receive hard blows than what is typically found in a TKD school.

2. I think this points to a fundamental issue with the way that TKD (and other such martial arts) are viewed. It's like, if you DO want full contact training and competition, complete with face punches, knees, leg kicks, etc. then you pretty much have to go to an MMA or MT gym. Why? Because TKD and Karate schools are largely places where you go to "get a good work out" and compete in a bit of sport. They're not really viewed as places where you go to "learn to fight."

I don't understand why there can't be both. You can have the feel good schools . . . and then you can have the hard core schools. You can go to Jim's TKD if you want to have some easy-going, family-oriented instruction . . . or you can go to Rick's TKD if you want to become a fighter and learn some legitimate self-defense.

Or imagine a TKD school that is specifically interested in training MMA fighters. Perhaps there's a TKD instructor and a judo or BJJ instructor. Just like any other MMA gym except TKD is the standup art instead of muay Thai.

I think that would be awesome, but in order for it to happen, it means that there's going to have to be a sizable movement in that direction, with instructors making a conscious effort to re-brand TKD so that it's no longer thought of as a martial art for "women and kids."

 

[Tez3]

Why is that?

Most of the adults in our club are soldiers, MMA suits them both their nature and their jobs. We can pick up with them where they left off when they've come back of exercise/deployment/leave/duties, e have no curriculum so can tailor each training session to who is in. We are based on the largest Garrison in Europe, the camp we are in belongs to the Scots Guards who are very good to us, they sponsor our track suits and have just given us a building for our own use instead of their gym. Last year was a bad one for us, the children I teach nearly all had a father in Afghan and most of our students were there also. I ran a beginner's MMA class, with lads from one regiment, the Queens Royal Lancers ( we had a lot of regts. here) one of them, Steptoe was killed out there when an IED went off under his vehicle, he was only 20. It's in the Remembrance section here. The Brigade came back a year ago, I haven't had the heart to be honest to run that class again, I may when we've sorted out the new building. While they were there and while they were in Canada this year (training for Afghan, they go this coming October again) the guys have been doing wrestling with the Canadians, it's not something that's common here unlike America. The majority of UK fighters are from TMAs, we don't have many that come from the boxing background and probably none from wrestling. In the nearly 12 years I've been involved in MMA TMA is still the way people get into MMA, a few youngsters now are coming straight in and I expect that will be the way many will come in the future.



When I said that I "know of Bunkai" I was referring to Abernethy's work.

There's also a guy who has done something similar for the ITF patterns:

http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/HaeSul/HaeSul.html

I know Stuart, he used to be ( still is?) a poster on here, he posts on Iain's forum too.




I mostly just pulled out the "I write for an MMA mag" bit because of the question of credibility. No, I'm not a fighter, but I know the sport/industry through my interactions with the sport, i.e. observations, studying what fighters and trainers have said, speaking directly to fighters, speaking to trainers. Also, even though it seems brief, you learn a lot even in only 6 months in a judo club, enough to understand the basics of body mechanics, takedowns, and ground work.

But like I said, really, this is just a hot button issue for me. I always support MMA fighters who come from either a TKD, Karate or Judo background and want to see such fighters better represented in the sport. I know that for that to happen though some things will need to change.




I haven't doubted anyone who has said, "Oh, at my school we are very serious/do full contact/do face punches" or whatever. My point is just that a substantial portion of schools are NOT like that. In fact, this isn't even anything new. The contact karate vs no-contact karate debate has been going on for decades.



Probably not, which is why I come here, to interact with like-minded people.

The thing about training 'full contact' is that many are mistaken in that they think we train full contact every session, every techniques is put on hard and every person who does MMA is a full time fighter. It couldn't be further from the truth, there's no place for full or hard contact when you are learning/drilling techniques, you put them on until you feel them then tap, no more than that. Ralph made the point about people having to work, all our guys do in the UK and the pro fighters can't afford injuries before a fight, it means no pay! Those who compete in MMA, fight full contact, the training isn't! It may well be harder contact than an average martial arts school but it will never be full on, probably only 50-60% contact.

 

[RobinTKD]

Also, another thing to consider, is that it's not just TKD that suffers from McDojo problems, it'e prevalent in all popular TMA's, Shotokan, Judo, Ju-Jiutsu, etc. Where money can be made from the ignorant, it will be. I personally don't like the way the TAGB train, i don't like the look of their patterns, the drills are boring as hell and the classes are like exercises in mundanity* but god do they make some amazing fighters, look at competitions like Clash of the Titans, and the open style CIMAC tournaments, the TAGB always do well. But it's not a school i'd like to train at.


*This is just my opinion of the TAGB, an opinion based on training at 4 different TAGB classes over a period of 2 years.

 

[Cyriacus]

Also, another thing to consider, is that it's not just TKD that suffers from McDojo problems, it'e prevalent in all popular TMA's, Shotokan, Judo, Ju-Jiutsu, etc. Where money can be made from the ignorant, it will be. I personally don't like the way the TAGB train, i don't like the look of their patterns, the drills are boring as hell and the classes are like exercises in mundanity* but god do they make some amazing fighters, look at competitions like Clash of the Titans, and the open style CIMAC tournaments, the TAGB always do well. But it's not a school i'd like to train at.


*This is just my opinion of the TAGB, an opinion based on training at 4 different TAGB classes over a period of 2 years.

The Problem I feel, is that anyone, even someone with zilch MA experience can start a School for it.
Theres no Legal Justification needed. Its a Business.

As such, You can get underqualified People making their own Groups, and Groups that Train Poorly.

 

[Tez3]

Also, another thing to consider, is that it's not just TKD that suffers from McDojo problems, it'e prevalent in all popular TMA's, Shotokan, Judo, Ju-Jiutsu, etc. Where money can be made from the ignorant, it will be. I personally don't like the way the TAGB train, i don't like the look of their patterns, the drills are boring as hell and the classes are like exercises in mundanity* but god do they make some amazing fighters, look at competitions like Clash of the Titans, and the open style CIMAC tournaments, the TAGB always do well. But it's not a school i'd like to train at.


*This is just my opinion of the TAGB, an opinion based on training at 4 different TAGB classes over a period of 2 years.

It's not, at the moment, prevalent in MMA but I can see it coming quite soon. The 'total package' you train and fight with the same coach/promoter who supplies all the kit, you can have 'master' classes in standup, groundwork etc, kids classes the whole thing all watered down for everyone. Perhaps I'll go and start it myself, need money to retire!

 

[msmitht]

It's not, at the moment, prevalent in MMA but I can see it coming quite soon. The 'total package' you train and fight with the same coach/promoter who supplies all the kit, you can have 'master' classes in standup, groundwork etc, kids classes the whole thing all watered down for everyone. Perhaps I'll go and start it myself, need money to retire!

It is already happening in california.

 

[SPX]

The thing about training 'full contact' is that many are mistaken in that they think we train full contact every session, every techniques is put on hard and every person who does MMA is a full time fighter. It couldn't be further from the truth, there's no place for full or hard contact when you are learning/drilling techniques, you put them on until you feel them then tap, no more than that. Ralph made the point about people having to work, all our guys do in the UK and the pro fighters can't afford injuries before a fight, it means no pay! Those who compete in MMA, fight full contact, the training isn't! It may well be harder contact than an average martial arts school but it will never be full on, probably only 50-60% contact.

Thanks for your story regarding soldiers and MMA. That's pretty interesting.

As for full contact, yeah, I gotcha. Personally, I've never actually wanted to train in an environment where full contact is the norm. That's one reason I didn't continue on with muay Thai because dudes at the gym I was attending were getting KOd and having their noses busted on the regular just in everyday sparring.

I feel that in many schools though the norm is, say, 20% contact, but that's too far in the other direction.