non-telegraph without loosing power, to what extent can training keep power?

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Fungus

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at least TRYING to do the balancing act, did improve my technique a bit.
After focusing on this the last few weeks I noticed that ALL my spinning kicks have greatly improved, my balance improved and I am more confident using them more frequently in sparring. As I can't kick high the ones I focus on is

- spinning/turning back kick to liver or chest that we discussed in this thread

but the same training improved alot my balance and power in this kick
- spinning roundhouse heel kick to opponents legs or liver, or you can also to it lower almost as a sweep, then tou drop your body weight before you throw it, I love these as they are nice to my back, spinning heel kick to the thigh is effective or hit a the nerve joint between legt and hip, which i nailed twice in sparring to my opponents surprise as they are surpirsed byt the effect even though th power is moderate

 

marvin8

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After focusing on this the last few weeks I noticed that ALL my spinning kicks have greatly improved, my balance improved and I am more confident using them more frequently in sparring. As I can't kick high the ones I focus on is

- spinning/turning back kick to liver or chest that we discussed in this thread

but the same training improved alot my balance and power in this kick
- spinning roundhouse heel kick to opponents legs or liver, or you can also to it lower almost as a sweep, then tou drop your body weight before you throw it, I love these as they are nice to my back, spinning heel kick to the thigh is effective or hit a the nerve joint between legt and hip, which i nailed twice in sparring to my opponents surprise as they are surpirsed byt the effect even though th power is moderate

What is missing in this and the Kyokushin Sari video and covered in the other videos is the placing of the pivot foot. This spinning hook kick, as drilled in this video, is more open to counters. A clean spinning kick can be telegraphic and has no power if it misses.

Shevchenko's spin timing was too late
Yes and it looks like for that range, she should have chambered the lag close to the body, the leg was too far extended.
To make my statement more accurate, Shevchenko starts on the tracksfrom orthodox closed stance, her lead foot (on the "c") lines up with Grasso's rear foot. Her jumping spinning back kick pivot foot lands on the "h." This makes Shevchennko's kick wide and gives her back to Grasso.

L5j2Sok.jpg


4s4RBUS.jpg



 
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What is missing in this and the Kyokushin Sari video and covered in the other videos is the placing of the pivot foot. This spinning hook kick, as drilled in this video, is more open to counters. A clean spinning kick can be telegraphic and has no power if it misses.
by "clean"? do you you men where you does NOT move the lead foot (to align with opponents lead foot), or one where you just launch it standalone without setup?
In sparring I find the spinning hee/hook low kick to be effective. Safest way it so throw it when opponen changes from orthodox to southpaw, then the range is longer and chance of getting leg caught is very low. IF they expect it, they usually back down, so threatening with it seems to work to to make the opponent back, to create distance for another kick, for example the step behind back/side kick bruce lee style.

When kicking the back leg with the spining heel like on the shinsekai bidoe it is indeed easier to get countered. Unless you nail it and cause the opponent to dip. But the kick itself is the same, but it can have many targets.


To make my statement more accurate, Shevchenko starts on the tracksfrom orthodox closed stance, her lead foot (on the "c") lines up with Grasso's rear foot. Her jumping spinning back kick pivot foot lands on the "h." This makes Shevchennko's kick wide and gives her back to Grasso.



4s4RBUS.jpg
Yes I has she spinned earlier it might have worked, I think that was your point. I agree.
But sometimes there is no time, so I think had she tucked/her leg and kept it there during the spin, then her heel would have been right into the left rib. This would have been a good strike even if the leg isnt extended. This is the version I have practive the last week, with power on sack, but I also got a couple of hits in sparring (close range punching)... If you make it right you will retain balance even if then run into you... you will just "bounce back" but not loose balance
 

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upper cut to the jaw...simple as that. nothing faster or more deadly in a real fight

 

marvin8

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by "clean"? do you you men where you does NOT move the lead foot (to align with opponents lead foot), or one where you just launch it standalone without setup?
Both. Looking at technique only, I believe non-telegraphic spinning back/hook kick is a misnomer. When you rotate, I step. Chinese saying, If my opponent doesnt move, I do not move. The instant he moves, I am already there.

In sparring I find the spinning hee/hook low kick to be effective. Safest way it so throw it when opponen changes from orthodox to southpaw, then the range is longer and chance of getting leg caught is very low. IF they expect it, they usually back down, so threatening with it seems to work to to make the opponent back, to create distance for another kick, for example the step behind back/side kick bruce lee style.
Yes. I am only commenting on the Kyokushin videos that were posted. I don't know what other drills one may do. There are other drills that develop more than just technique. Lure them to change. Then, attack when they can't change...


When kicking the back leg with the spining heel like on the shinsekai bidoe it is indeed easier to get countered. Unless you nail it and cause the opponent to dip. But the kick itself is the same, but it can have many targets.
Again, it's easier to get countered because of his foot placement.

Yes I has she spinned earlier it might have worked, I think that was your point. I agree. But sometimes there is no time, so I think had she tucked/her leg and kept it there during the spin, then her heel would have been right into the left rib.
I corrected my point. Her pivot foot placement before spinning was ineffective.
Had Shevchenko spinned earlier she would still have missed, if Grasso took a step as Shevchenko turns her back.

This would have been a good strike even if the leg isnt extended. This is the version I have practive the last week, with power on sack, but I also got a couple of hits in sparring (close range punching)... If you make it right you will retain balance even if then run into you... you will just "bounce back" but not loose balance
What is missing in the Kyokushin Sari video is how to get into that close advantageous position. The Koreshkov GIF showed that.
 
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What is missing in the Kyokushin Sari video is how to get into that close advantageous position. The Koreshkov GIF showed that.
Ok I see your point now. valid point.

That you end up in that position in Kyokushin and the reason it's now shown is often and artifact from kyokushin rules. It's essentially a close range boxing range, but this last longer as we don't strike to the face, and pushes throws/grabs aren't allowed. It's the boring part of watching kyokushin competitions, that part is indeed not realistic.
 

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What is missing in this and the Kyokushin Sari video and covered in the other videos is the placing of the pivot foot. This spinning hook kick, as drilled in this video, is more open to counters. A clean spinning kick can be telegraphic and has no power if it misses.



To make my statement more accurate, Shevchenko starts on the tracksfrom orthodox closed stance, her lead foot (on the "c") lines up with Grasso's rear foot. Her jumping spinning back kick pivot foot lands on the "h." This makes Shevchennko's kick wide and gives her back to Grasso.

L5j2Sok.jpg


4s4RBUS.jpg



I would love to see the video of Shevchenko. From the pictures, it is hard to tell exactly what happened.
Did Grasso step first, cutting the kick? I think so because, if that is a punch, it is with the left hand.
Shevchenko may have thought she could beat the step of time her spin better. I can't tell.
 

marvin8

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I would love to see the video of Shevchenko. From the pictures, it is hard to tell exactly what happened.
The sequence starts around 22:20...


Did Grasso step first, cutting the kick? I think so because, if that is a punch, it is with the left hand.
Yes. My correction, they are both in southpaw stance (not orthodox) in closed stance. Grasso takes a hidden step (shuffle) with her rear foot. then steps to the right about 18" and forward with her lead foot throwing the right jab.

Shevchenko may have thought she could beat the step of time her spin better. I can't tell.
Shevchenko appeared to be doing a correct jumping spinning back kick by landing her pivot foot about 8" closer to Grasso's lead foot. Again, Shevchenko failed to control Grasso. Grasso was able to step, as Shevchenko rotated.
 

HighKick

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The sequence starts around 22:20...



Yes. My correction, they are both in southpaw stance (not orthodox) in closed stance. Grasso takes a hidden step (shuffle) with her rear foot. then steps to the right about 18" and forward with her lead foot throwing the right jab.


Shevchenko appeared to be doing a correct jumping spinning back kick by landing her pivot foot about 8" closer to Grasso's lead foot. Again, Shevchenko failed to control Grasso. Grasso was able to step, as Shevchenko rotated.
Agree. I think that was just a missed kick because of a well times step.
 

marvin8

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Agree. I think that was just a missed kick because of a well times step.
And... Shevchenko's perfectly executed spin back kick (per the Shinseikai Karate video) missed. Because, Grasso took 3 slow, forward, narrow steps. Then as Schevchenko's starts her spin (double weighted, can't change, in transition. See TKD clip), Grasso takes a well timed quick 18" wide, forward step to the right while shifting her weight, changing the speed and cadence of her footwork.

"I train it for that thing. It was training. I trained every single day that thing. Because I knew that she did that spinning things. I want to say thank you to my partner Omar Loriano that is here. He trained it with me every single day. Thank you much because this is yours too Yeah. I training that because I know that she kicks hard. Shes a great athlete. I truly am thankful for that because I train it so so hard like never before in my life."

 
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