"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Juany118]

I am not sure I am talking the same language as everyone, since previous discussion was all about fighting at a "trapping range" where we can do things like direct applications of the Lap Sau drill and enter into grappling.

Also the punch with stepping is the punch. The step is part of the punch because it moves the body and this momentum is what is used against the opponent, i.e. we hit with our body. This integral step is why the VT punch is not range limited in terms of any realistic fighting range.

As to your first point you are focusing myopically on the things other forms of WC do that yours do not at that range. The term "trapping" is only used as a reference for the range. Can you trap there? Yes. Can you initiate grappling there? Also yes. This is not the point of the range however. The point is at that range you can use every tool in the arsenal. You can kick to the lower extremities, knee, elbow and punch. Also with the closer range of the "picture perfect" WSLVT punch, even PB, that appears to be the ideal range. If you watch the following montage, more often than not the range I speak of is the range PB is working to get to. Over and over again PB has also referred to the ideal of the short range involved in the VT punch, which when we see the videos of him is what some call "trapping range".

As I said before the WC world doesn't use terms like "trapping" range. However every WC system I have seen recognizes the significance of this "sweet spot" and even if you can't get there due to circumstances, it is still the sweet spot. In terms of simple training I think the best example is the mook jong. It has three main purposes, in my experience. The correct use of power and force, and synchronicity of action and the quickest route to a target. The fact the mook is rigid, as we perform the drills, also forces us to maintain structure (Newton's laws and all of that.) The thing is what range are you at where you can do all these things?

That is the telling point, regardless of everything else. If the majority of drills you do are in a specific space/range, those drills are telling you something about where your sweet spot is.

My hope is that the fact I used a non-WC term to describe the positioning of the sweet spot is causing the apparent confusion.

 

[Hazardi172]

You are moving in with footwork until close enough for the punch to land. That punch isn't going to land from several feet away without you "moving your body" (stepping in with footwork) to the "sweet spot" where you are close enough for that punch to land. That is still closing the distance or range.

No, the momentum from the footwork is an essential part of the punch in VT

If you start where you are close enough to land a kick but not close enough to land a punch without moving in (kicking range), then you are going to have to move into a range where you are close enough for the punch to contact (punching range). That's just a simple fact of physics whether you want to use that terminology or not.

If you are close enough to land a kick then you are also close enough to land punch

 

[Juany118]

No, the momentum from the footwork is an essential part of the punch in VT



If you are close enough to land a kick then you are also close enough to land punch

On point one you don't address his point. Of course footwork adds to the momentum of a punch because that isn't VT/WC, that's universal physics.

As for the last point. A straight front kick can strike when a punch can not, that is simple biomechanics and geometry. However if you are talking about the range where both a low kick and punch can land, that is for the most part the "sweet spot" the rest of us have been talking about that you say doesn't exist but you just inadvertently acknowledged exists.

 

[Hazardi172]

As to your first point you are focusing myopically on the things other forms of WC do that yours do not at that range. The term "trapping" is only used as a reference for the range. Can you trap there? Yes. Can you initiate grappling there? Also yes. This is not the point of the range however. The point is at that range you can use every tool in the arsenal. You can kick to the lower extremities, knee, elbow and punch. Also with the closer range of the "picture perfect" WSLVT punch, even PB, that appears to be the ideal range. If you watch the following montage, more often than not the range I speak of is the range PB is working to get to. Over and over again PB has also referred to the ideal of the short range involved in the VT punch, which when we see the videos of him is what some call "trapping range".

I don't train with Philipp Bayer and so cannot speak for him, but you appear to have posted a clip showing a lot of training drills. I don't see what relevance these have to this discussion?

As I said before the WC world doesn't use terms like "trapping" range. However every WC system I have seen recognizes the significance of this "sweet spot" and even if you can't get there due to circumstances, it is still the sweet spot. In terms of simple training I think the best example is the mook jong. It has three main purposes, in my experience. The correct use of power and force, and synchronicity of action and the quickest route to a target. The fact the mook is rigid, as we perform the drills, also forces us to maintain structure (Newton's laws and all of that.) The thing is what range are you at where you can do all these things?

That is the telling point, regardless of everything else. If the majority of drills you do are in a specific space/range, those drills are telling you something about where your sweet spot is.

My hope is that the fact I used a non-WC term to describe the positioning of the sweet spot is causing the apparent confusion.

There is no idea of sweet spot in WSL VT . My understanding is that the idea came from JKD

 

[Hazardi172]

On point one you don't address his point. Of course footwork adds to the momentum of a punch because that isn't VT/WC, that's universal physics.

The punch without the foorwork is not the VT punch. Footwork required

As for the last point. A straight front kick can strike when a punch can not, that is simple biomechanics and geometry.

In WSL VT the punch and kick land from the same range. We don't think "now we are in kicking range, we must kick, not we are closer we must punch, now closer still we must initiate the Lap Sau drill". Mostly we are attacking with punches from any and all ranges!

You wing chun may be different and that's ok with me

if you are talking about the range where both a low kick and punch can land, that is for the most part the "sweet spot" the rest of us have been talking about that you say doesn't exist but you just inadvertently acknowledged exists

There is no such sweet spot in WSL VT due to the nature of the punch. Other punches may differ

 

[KPM]

No, the momentum from the footwork is an essential part of the punch in VT

---That doesn't make any difference. I step with most punches as well. But the bottom line is that, based on where you start from, you aren't going to land that punch WITHOUT stepping in. If you are starting from 3 feet away from the opponent, then you may have to step more than once in order to be close enough for that punch to land. So you are still changing the range or closing the distance.



If you are close enough to land a kick then you are also close enough to land punch

---Not necessarily. Again, you obviously don't understand the concept of ranges of combat and are making no effort at all to see what we are saying. A Tae Kwon Do guy is going to be able to land all kinds of kicks from a distance that would require you to step in before you could punch him. That is kicking range. If the TKD guy is good at controlling that range then he isn't going to let you step in with your punch without eating a hard kick. You cannot punch him without moving in, but he can kick you without moving in, because his legs are longer than your arms. That is kicking range.

 

[KPM]

There is no idea of sweet spot in WSL VT . My understanding is that the idea came from JKD

No. Again you comment on JKD but you obviously don't know much at all about it. The concept of a "sweet spot" originated with western boxing.

 

[KPM]

I am currently going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume he isn't trolling. That said it seems like he was programmed on a specific track and, it seems, to not actually breakdown how you fight in an analytical way for further study.

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Yeah, if we give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that this isn't Guy trying to pull a fast one on the moderators, then we have to assume that there must be a lot of indoctrination that goes on in parts of the WSLVT lineage. Because Harardi has the same prejudices, narrow-minded views, and one-track thinking that Guy has. Either that's one heck of a coincidence, or some people in WSLVT are being taught to think that way. Because I haven't really encountered that in any other Wing Chun lineage. Its that whole attitude of not being willing to even consider or try to understand what someone else is saying. The whole approach seems to be "My way is the only way....."

 

[Hazardi172]

That doesn't make any difference. I step with most punches as well. But the bottom line is that, based on where you start from, you aren't going to land that punch WITHOUT stepping in.

WSL VT has footwork with all punches, not most punches. It isn't a punch without footwork because the power comes from the footwork. Where the arm motion reaches is irrelevant.

If you are starting from 3 feet away from the opponent, then you may have to step more than once in order to be close enough for that punch to land. So you are still changing the range or closing the distance

There is no changing the range to punch. The punch launches from distance with the push off the ground by the foot. This is the start of the punch and is the first link in the chain from ground to fist. Without the step the punch is not worth doing because it is just an arm punch. In separating step from punch it sounds like you are talking about stepping in and then doing an arm punch. We don't do that, the whole motion is part of the WSL VT punch

A Tae Kwon Do guy is going to be able to land all kinds of kicks from a distance that would require you to step in before you could punch him. That is kicking range.

In WSL VT that is no special range because the step is part of the punch and we can punch from any meaningful fighting range. We don't step in then punch, we just punch! I have no problem with you doing things another way in your JKD, and I am sure that your idea of ranges works for you. It just isn't an important consideration in WSL VT! To each their own way

You cannot punch him without moving in, but he can kick you without moving in, because his legs are longer than your arms. That is kicking range.

This sounds to me like a very artificial situation. Not something I would expect to be any problem in reality

 

[Hazardi172]

No. Again you comment on JKD but you obviously don't know much at all about it. The concept of a "sweet spot" originated with western boxing.

Western boxing punches are completely unlike VT punches in that they do indeed have a point on the arc of the punch where it is best to hit the opponent. This is because they rely upon momentum and weight shift within the upper body of the puncher. A VT punch works in a very different way and doesn't have the same problem.

 

[KPM]

WSL VT has footwork with all punches, not most punches. It isn't a punch without footwork because the power comes from the footwork. Where the arm motion reaches is irrelevant.

---Again, that whole thing is irrelevant to the current discussion.



There is no changing the range to punch. The punch launches from distance with the push off the ground by the foot. This is the start of the punch and is the first link in the chain from ground to fist. Without the step the punch is not worth doing because it is just an arm punch. In separating step from punch it sounds like you are talking about stepping in and then doing an arm punch. We don't do that, the whole motion is part of the WSL VT punch

---And again, when you step in and THEN punch, you are changing the range and entering the "sweet spot" where your punch can be effective whether you want acknowledge that fact or not



In WSL VT that is no special range because the step is part of the punch and we can punch from any meaningful fighting range. We don't step in then punch, we just punch! I have no problem with you doing things another way in your JKD, and I am sure that your idea of ranges works for you. It just isn't an important consideration in WSL VT! To each their own way

----This whole discussion did not start out referring specifically to WSLVT. You did not start out by saying that "that's good, but we don't see it that way in WSLVT." You started out simply by denying that the whole idea of ranges of combat was true or a "real thing."


This sounds to me like a very artificial situation. Not something I would expect to be any problem in reality

---Then you have obviously not done any hard sparring with people from other martial arts styles other than your own WSLVT.

 

[Hazardi172]

Its that whole attitude of not being willing to even consider or try to understand what someone else is saying. The whole approach seems to be "My way is the only way....."

Hey, I am very happy to consider what you are saying for your martial arts that you do. Several of you have told me that you like to fight from a specific range, that you like to do direct applications from various drills at that range, that you use grappling and trapping. This is all okay with me! I like to learn about what other people do.

And I am answering from my own perspective in WSL VT, trying to tell you what we do. Obviously others have other ways which are not the WSL VT way

 

[KPM]

Western boxing punches are completely unlike VT punches in that they do indeed have a point on the arc of the punch where it is best to hit the opponent. This is because they rely upon momentum and weight shift within the upper body of the puncher. A VT punch works in a very different way and doesn't have the same problem.

That doesn't matter. It is still a valid concept.

 

[Hazardi172]

And again, when you step in and THEN punch, you are changing the range and entering the "sweet spot" where your punch can be effective whether you want acknowledge that fact or not

We don't step in and then punch

This whole discussion did not start out referring specifically to WSLVT. You did not start out by saying that "that's good, but we don't see it that way in WSLVT." You started out simply by denying that the whole idea of ranges of combat was true or a "real thing."

I can only speak from the perspective of WSL VT. Very sorry for any confusion in my language

-Then you have obviously not done any hard sparring with people from other martial arts styles other than your own WSLVT.

I have done plenty of sparring with people from plenty of other styles. Testing is part of the WSL VT way!

 

[Hazardi172]

That doesn't matter. It is still a valid concept.

Well, it is only a valid concept when we are talking about boxing or similar punches, but not when we are talking about WSL VT punches, as I have explained in detail

I am talking about WSL VT punches!

 

[KPM]

Hey, I am very happy to consider what you are saying for your martial arts that you do. Several of you have told me that you like to fight from a specific range, that you like to do direct applications from various drills at that range, that you use grappling and trapping. This is all okay with me! I like to learn about what other people do.

And I am answering from my own perspective in WSL VT, trying to tell you what we do. Obviously others have other ways which are not the WSL VT way

Well then, let me point out that....just like Guy....you need to consider how you come across in the forum when you post. You need to examine your "style" of posting. For example....this comment you made:

There is no ideal range from which to strike. Thinking of fighting in this way leads to one dimensional and predictable movement patterns. Range is variable and we strike from very close to far out. It depends what the opponent shows us.

That makes it sound like you are disagreeing with what we were saying about ranges of combat. You could have written instead...."I see what you are saying, but in WSLVT we do not think of it this way. We don't use any ideal range from which to strike...." You are telling us that by thinking this way we are being "one dimensional" and "predicatable." Which isn't at all true. If you were really interested in what we were talking about you would have pointed out how you see it might be "predicatable" and asked what we do about it. Instead you just keep saying we are describing is wrong. You don't always qualify that by saying "from a WSLVT perspective."

 

[KPM]

Well, it is only a valid concept when we are talking about boxing or similar punches, but not when we are talking about WSL VT punches, as I have explained in detail

I am talking about WSL VT punches!

Well, as was pointed out to Guy....this is not a WSLVT specific forum. This is a general Wing Chun forum. What we were talking about does apply to other versions of Wing Chun. So stop making definitive statements without being clear that you are only talking about WSLVT.

 

[Hazardi172]

Well then, let me point out that....just like Guy....you need to consider how you come across in the forum when you post.

Hey, I don't know this Guy of yours. How many times do I need to reinforce the message to you? I am not Guy

You need to examine your "style" of posting. For example....this comment you made:

There is no ideal range from which to strike. Thinking of fighting in this way leads to one dimensional and predictable movement patterns. Range is variable and we strike from very close to far out. It depends what the opponent shows us.

That makes it sound like you are disagreeing with what we were saying about ranges of combat. You could have written instead...."I see what you are saying, but in WSLVT we do not think of it this way. We don't use any ideal range from which to strike...." You are telling us that by thinking this way we are being "one dimensional" and "predicatable." Which isn't at all true. If you were really interested in what we were talking about you would have pointed out how you see it might be "predicatable" and asked what we do about it. Instead you just keep saying we are describing is wrong. You don't always qualify that by saying "from a WSLVT perspective."

Of course I am only talking about my own experience in WSL VT. I don't know anything about your martial arts experience in JKD and other types of systems. Very sorry for my ignorant Dutch. I will be careful not to cause offence in future

 

[Hazardi172]

Well, as was pointed out to Guy....this is not a WSLVT specific forum. This is a general Wing Chun forum. What we were talking about does apply to other versions of Wing Chun. So stop making definitive statements without being clear that you are only talking about WSLVT.

I will reference WSL VT as often as possible in future posts

Good day to you!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am not sure I am talking the same language as everyone, since previous discussion was all about fighting at a "trapping range" where we can do things like direct applications of the Lap Sau drill and enter into grappling.

Also the punch with stepping is the punch. The step is part of the punch because it moves the body and this momentum is what is used against the opponent, i.e. we hit with our body. This integral step is why the VT punch is not range limited in terms of any realistic fighting range.

Every style I'm aware of has a punch that includes a step. They often teach it static at first, but that's just to isolate the arm and hip movement for learning purposes. The length of the step taken with the punch is to get the punch into proper range, as well as delivering additional power from the body's momentum.