No Neo-Nazi Link, eh?

[Sukerkin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/8683276.stm

It's because of chaps like this that being patriotic about being English is now so verbotten!

A shame that this has taken eight years to come to light and an even bigger shame that that photograph is of the memorial at the top of my towns High Street!

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I agree that it's a ridiculous form of rebellion; however, one or two points to be made.

Only one man, second from left, is giving a correct salute, as it were. The sot on the far left is using the wrong hand and Batkin is just standing there.

I agree it's horribly inappropriate.

 

[tellner]

Doesn't BNP stand for British Nazi Prats?

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, leaves a less bitter taste than British Nationalist Party .

Sadly the BNP have turned pride in country into something deeply unpleasant. Such a warping is particularly galling considering what we as a nation (and my grandfathers) went through to defeat aggressive fascism.

 

[Carol]

Whooaaa....this is very shocking. And as the daughter of a WWII vet, I share your disgust, Suke (at least, as much as I can from across the pond).

I'm so glad you are sharing these stories. I find it interesting to learn about what is happening over there...but its a lot easier to grasp with a local person that can add a bit of commentary.

 

[Empty Hands]

Sadly the BNP have turned pride in country into something deeply unpleasant.

I don't see why it has to be that way. Everyone knows the BNP are thinly veiled neo-Nazi's, racists and xenophobes. They don't define being proud of your country, or even nationalism. I don't know if I would describe them as nationalist so much as jingoistic.

Besides, they clearly have no idea what it means to be British if they advocate fascism.

 

[Sukerkin]

So true, EH.

Sadly, what has happened is that because of their xenophobic, not-so-neo-fascist grasping of a dark form of 'patriotism', they have poisoned the well, so to speak.

I have ever been immensely proud to be English, fully accepting some of the evils that were done under the auspices of Empire in centuries gone by. Now it has become unthinkable (and indeed against the law in some counties) to, for example, fly the Cross of St George flag as it is considered a 'racist' thing to do.

That sort of overly-PC reaction is what the BNP have caused .

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well it's saddening on one hand, yet also bittersweet comfort to know mine isn't the *only* country going through an identity crisis at risk to rip it apert...........

 

[Ken Morgan]

"Evil prospers when good men do nothing."
Sounds like you are doing something Mark. You're speaking up.
Its free speech, we have to let the nuts on the far left and the far right speak.
I would not be at all surprised if MI5 had nice files on these guys, and keep the important ones under surveillance 24/7. British security is not stupid.

 

[yorkshirelad]

That sort of overly-PC reaction is what the BNP have caused .

Not quite! That sought of over-PC reaction is what the overly- PC have caused. To ban the cross of St.George in England is lunacy and actually results in decent people voting for filth like the BNP because of such ludicrous decisions.
Can you imagine for one second, the reaction a state representative would get if he were to even suggest that we ban the Stars and Stripes?

 

[dancingalone]

Can you imagine for one second, the reaction a state representative would get if he were to even suggest that we ban the Stars and Stripes?

Maybe another topic but the Confederate flag is frequently held up to be a racist symbol and there has been a movement of late to remove it from places like high schools and universities. There are lots of schools named for Robert E. Lee (generally their mascot is something like the 'Rebels') in the southern US. I read every now and then about some groundswell support for renaming the schools and choosing a new mascot.

 

[Empty Hands]

Maybe another topic but the Confederate flag is frequently held up to be a racist symbol and there has been a movement of late to remove it from places like high schools and universities.

It's hardly "PC Madness" to associate the Stars and Bars with racism, as that flag was deliberately adopted by the Klan and others as a symbol of white supremacy, and really rocketed to prominence during the fight over the Civil Rights movement in the 60's.

Anger about the flag generally has a reason behind it...as does support of the flag. This is all well established history.

BTW, all the Lee landmarks have nothing on the Nathan Bedford Forrest landmarks IMO. Perpetrator/ignorer of the Ft. Pillow massacre, founder of the Klan...sheesh.

One of the most disheartening experiences in my life has been to read a comprehensive history of Reconstruction. That history makes everything that has happened since and happens still completely unsurprising.

 

[dancingalone]

It's hardly "PC Madness" to associate the Stars and Bars with racism,

Never said it was. I am neutral on the Confederate flag issue. I think clearly some white supremacist groups do use the flag as their symbol. At the same time to many others, it's more of a southern pride/states rights thing.

My parents and I were immigrants to the US. One of my best friends growing up had a father that wore a prominent Confederate flag belt buckle. He never treated me with anything other than kindness. Still I have that reconcile that with the frequent images of Klansmen wearing their white robes when waving around the Stars and Bars.

It's a complicated issue. I don't think it's correct to place automatically the Confederate flag into the racist column.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Never said it was. I am neutral on the Confederate flag issue. I think clearly some white supremacist groups do use the flag as their symbol. At the same time to many others, it's more of a southern pride/states rights thing.

My parents and I were immigrants to the US. One of my best friends growing up had a father that wore a prominent Confederate flag belt buckle. He never treated me with anything other than kindness. Still I have that reconcile that with the frequent images of Klansmen wearing their white robes when waving around the Stars and Bars.

It's a complicated issue. I don't think it's correct to place automatically the Confederate flag into the racist column.

I always link the confederate flag with "The Dukes of Hazard". As a kid, all we knew of that flag was the tv show. I think I even had a confederate flag t-shirt growing up in England and thought it was my Dof H shirt.

 

[tellner]

My grandparents didn't arrive until well after the war, so I don't have a personal horse in the race. But, really...

Sing the first verse of "The Bonnie Blue Flag". Remember what the "property" they were talking about was.

Consider any non-revisionist history of the years leading up to the War of Southern Aggression including the prosecution of abolitionists for sedition, not for actually freeing slaves, just for advocating it.

Meditate on the fact that the South tried hard to make all new States slave, rather than free. This included paying colonists to move to new States and territories in order to swing the population towards slave.

They weren't interested in protecting their "peculiar institution". They wanted to force it on everyone else.

Really, if you're proud of your Southern Heritage you should celebrate this part of your past, not try to deny it.

 

[Carol]

I've lived up north all my life, but I was raised by southern parents. I'm the only one still up here, the rest of my relatives have moved back. When I go down to visit the family, there is always a big symbol of southern pride and heritage on display.

Its nothing new. Its been that way since since before my sister and I grew up.

Some folks think its immoral or utterly wrong, because it excludes a segment of our population.

Some folks think its hurtful. Others dismiss it as completely old-fashioned.

I dunno. Its what I grew up with, so I never had an issue with it. Its been a tradition, and no one has meant any harm. My sister insists that I have some sort of southern roots, so we get started with the holiday cooking, my sister and I roll out....


.....a big plate of Southern Barbeque (sorry Tellner!!). Now that is Southern Pride at its best. :lol:

 

[Sukerkin]

Really, if you're proud of your XYZ Heritage you should celebrate this part of your past, not try to deny it.

I utterly concur with this sentiment in that you have to embrace and remember all of your cultural history, not just the bits you are proud of.

However, it is also necessary to recall things in their context and not condemn your forfathers for doing something that was not evil or immoral, in their eyes, in the period within which they lived.

 

[girlbug2]

Behind every flag in the history of the world there is a sordid tale if you care to look. That is poor grounds for labeling the flag itself as an evil symbol--so banning it. There wouldn't be any left to fly.

 

[CoryKS]

I utterly concur with this sentiment in that you have to embrace and remember all of your cultural history, not just the bits you are proud of.

I emphatically disagree with this sentiment. Culture is a dynamic thing, and it is necessary to be able to cast off portions of it when they no longer serve their purpose. Remember certainly, to prevent making the mistakes of the past. But to say that one must embrace all of it not only locks it into a static definition of what it is, it also means that you are obliged to either defend its past wrongs or reject the entire package - what we call "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

 

[Sukerkin]

I was not speaking of "culture" but "cultural history", Cory. The two may sometimes be closely related but they are very different things.

Also, I did not use "embrace" as in meaning to "lovingly enfold and cleave to" but rather as in "having your knowledge encompass and understand".