Ninjutsu Everywhere!!!

[Bruno@MT]

I grant you that it is intrigueing enough that I'll try to find out more. The History pages of Genbukan websites are often taken straight from the intro of Ninpo Secrets or the kyu curriculum, so it is small wonder

Something similar is printed in the intro of our kyu curriculum, which is a translation not made by Tanemura sensei himself, and which I was told was intended to say that the Genbukan ninpo curriculum is made out of the arts associated with the Iga and Koga regions, which is indeed true when looking at the lineage of the various arts which are listed.

You'll note that Koga ryu is mentioned nowhere on the Genbukan main page, not even in the list of 'systems trained in'. And you'll also note that there is no Genbukan member actually making that claim.

 

[ronin7411]

Bruno, the link to the Genbukan school where it talks about Soke Tanemura says this at the bottom of the page:

This site is officially approved by Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto (Honbu Dojo - Japan) 2006 - Copyright Genbukan Daigo Dojo

​

​

I think its safe to assume that if Tanemura himself approved of the information about a student of his saying that he teaches Koga Ryu and studied it on a school's website teaching his style. I think he is telling everyone along with that school having his approval saying that he is affiliated to the Koga Ryu in some form that he does have some sort of training in a Koga Ryu system.

 

[Hayseed]

I'm dusting out the cobwebs in my head and IIRC, I thought I read something about Mr. Tanemura tracing his genealogy back and finding that he had familial ties to the Koga. I don't remember reading anything where he claimed to have trained in "Koga Ryu" though.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Tanemura sensei indeed approved what is there.
He is not, however, fluent in English, not is he a linguist. You will find the same approval under our website, which is in Dutch. And I am fairly certain he does not speak Dutch.

Anyway, I've asked my sensei what he thinks and what it says in the Japanese version of Ninpo secrets.

 

[Kumori Ryu Ninja]

No skin off my back. I can't say that I have mocked you, nor have some others, but if you wish lump us all into a group for the percieved actions of a few, then that is your loss, not mine. As to the second part of the above quote the answer is simple: perseverance

Muawijhe, I appreciate your responses.. I will be around here and there.. I know you have done nothing to mock or reject me.. Its just that its too soon to get back into the back and fourth again... apparently Ive been warned by a moderator for my behavior on here?? Im still trying to figure that one out... LOL.. I love all the content here and the people seem very knowledgeable.. I will be keeping an eye on the site and the threads to see what comes along...

My best regards!!

Kumori

 

[Muawijhe]

Good luck with your training, Kumori Ryu Ninja.

Ninjutsu is a controversial field, and if you are new to forums, they have a life of their own to get used to. You'll get the hang of it in time, just take it slowly at first. Listen then speak.

I'd almost suggest it being like joining a new dojo of a new art. You wouldn't want to walk through the doors and ignore the instructor in favour of your previous art. Take it slow, listen, even if the ideas and concepts are not what you agree with based on previous experiences. Ponder, practice, and then respond. Advice I need to heed for myself more often than not.

 

[ronin7411]

Ive been warned by a moderator for my behavior on here?? Im still trying to figure that one out...

Same here Kumori I personally think that you're more helpful than some of the Mentors and Supporting Members here

 

[Tanaka]

Same here Kumori I personally think that you're more helpful than some of the Mentors and Supporting Members here

As they say... The Truth hurts.
Now you may continue to be spiteful, or learn from it.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Same here Kumori I personally think that you're more helpful than some of the Mentors and Supporting Members here

Perhaps. But only because he (seems to) support your viewpoint, possibly out of ignorance (and I don't mean this in a negative way). If Ashida Kim himself showed up here, you'd find him more helpful than some of the Mentors and supporting members here, despite the fact that he is a quack. You'd praise him because he validates you, not because he presents solid arguments.

 

[MJS]

Muawijhe, I appreciate your responses.. I will be around here and there.. I know you have done nothing to mock or reject me.. Its just that its too soon to get back into the back and fourth again... apparently Ive been warned by a moderator for my behavior on here?? Im still trying to figure that one out... LOL.. I love all the content here and the people seem very knowledgeable.. I will be keeping an eye on the site and the threads to see what comes along...

My best regards!!

Kumori

Same here Kumori I personally think that you're more helpful than some of the Mentors and Supporting Members here

So, whats the issue gentlemen? If you're both here to air out your dirty laundry or unhappiness with the forum, this thread isn't the place to do it. Feel free to contact myself or another mod with any concerns you have. As for the warnings....well, perhaps if the forum rules that everyone agreed to when they signed up were adhered to, there wouldnt be any issues.

That being said, lets get back to the topic at hand please.

 

[Cryozombie]

Bruno, the link to the Genbukan school where it talks about Soke Tanemura says this at the bottom of the page:

This site is officially approved by Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto (Honbu Dojo - Japan) 2006 - Copyright Genbukan Daigo Dojo

​

​

I think its safe to assume that if Tanemura himself approved of the information about a student of his saying that he teaches Koga Ryu and studied it on a school's website teaching his style.

Oh yeah ok hold on:

"Ronin7411 is full of BS"

This post is officially approved by Ronin7411

There we go, it MUST be true. Because I said you said you approved it.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ok, I apologize for my previous post. It was a dick move, but it makes my point. Anyone can say anything and claim its approved, it does not prove the person they claim approved it actually read it and did so.

 

[Muawijhe]

Not to drag this on, but this question has been in my mind for a while and I've finally given in to it.

So, Fujita Seiko did not pass on his Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. But let's assume that Tanemura sensei does have knowledge of Koga Ryu, and maybe even teaches it (though seemingly not openly by the accounts of Genbukan members).

How many of these Koga Ryu schools out there have trained at length with Tanemura sensei? How many have such a knowledge of the arts taught and relationship with Tanemura sensei to be able to distinguish between Koga and Iga?

I'm open to the idea that a Koga Ryu could exist, but I see more Western dojos of shadey repute that claim to teach Koga Ryu, but have no link to what-so-ever to any of the less-questionable links to it. I highly doubt the young 20-somethings that dress as Mortal Kombat characters and train in the washroom basement have spent time with Tanemura, Kawakami, or a pupil of Fujita Seiko (assuming one was someone how trained secretly in Koga Ryu).

Not a dig at the supposed Koga Ryu practioners out there, but just it is an awful leap to take even in theory. Add to that I have yet to see so-called Koga Ryu organizations display any similarity in styles or movement between them.

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm open to the idea that a Koga Ryu could exist, but I see more Western dojos of shadey repute that claim to teach Koga Ryu, but have no link to what-so-ever to any of the less-questionable links to it. I highly doubt the young 20-somethings that dress as Mortal Kombat characters and train in the washroom basement have spent time with Tanemura, Kawakami, or a pupil of Fujita Seiko (assuming one was someone how trained secretly in Koga Ryu).

Not a dig at the supposed Koga Ryu practioners out there, but just it is an awful leap to take even in theory. Add to that I have yet to see so-called Koga Ryu organizations display any similarity in styles or movement between them.

I might have been open to the idea at one time, but I've seen enough people who were Japanese or living in japan and have the correct background investigate the history and claims and have found no real evidence that any of the known Koga styles are still being taught. At best, to my knowledge what has come to light are documents suggesting that certain ancestors of various persons were trained in these arts, but the current generation of these families were unaware, suggesting it was never actually passed down.

To be honest I don't really care, but I do admit that its... silly and laughable to see some guy clearly doing Tae-kwon-do and using Nunchucks and calling it "NinjItsu" in the same way I liked to make fun of the idiots in the Honda Civic hatchbacks with the giant spoilers and street racing graphics who think they have Sports Cars before I would toast them off the line in my Camaro.

 

[Muawijhe]

I'm open in that I'll at least listen to someone instead of immediately dismissing it. Still, that openess usually goes so far as seeing some pictures of the group or hearing some of the absolutely silly things that are said.

 

[ronin7411]

Ok, I apologize for my previous post. It was a dick move, but it makes my point. Anyone can say anything and claim its approved, it does not prove the person they claim approved it actually read it and did so.

I would rather believe Shoto Tanemura and Toshitugu Takamatsu own words anyday but oh well here is my proof

Gyokko Ryu is a famous school of Kosshi-jutsu (called "Shito-jutsu" in older times) and is also known as Gyokko Ryu Ninpo - which was the source of Haku-un Ryu Ninpo from Iga. Gyokko Ryu is also the oldest school of Kosshi-jutsu and is the source of almost all Ninpo Taijutsu. Takamatsu Sensei taught that Koto Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Gyokushin Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Gikan Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu all descended from Gyokko Ryu.

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?1315&csProduct_productID=223

http://www.budovideos.com/shop/cust...m_source=shoppingdotcom&source=shoppingdotcom

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, if we're going to go down this path, I've explored some Koga Ryu myself. Legitimately, though. Fujita Seiko left behind a few documents, including a Kyusho scroll, a Jo scroll, a Shuriken scroll, and a Hojo scroll. He did not, however, leave behind Taijutsu techniques. I have a copy of the Hojo scroll, as well as having gone through the Jo, Shuriken, and Kyusho ones before, and honestly that is as close as you can get to legitimate Koga Ryu today.

With Tanemura's statement of Takamatsu's beliefs on martial history, that statement does not say that Takamatsu taught Koga Ryu, nor that Tanemura teaches it either. It simply says that Gyokko Ryu, which provides the initial technical basis for most Ninjutsu-related systems, also provided the initial basis for the Koga traditions. Both he and Fujita were contemporaries of each other, so it is reasonable to think that they knew of each other, and Takamatsu may have had chance to see Fujita's methods, and drew his own conclusions. Then again, knowing Takamatsu's method of approaching such things, it could very easily just be a marketing device, expanding the influence of Gyokko Ryu itself. Personally, I think that he did believe it himself, though, and that is why he stated it.

Now, Johnny, the biggest question for yourself in your training is this: Are you after historically linked Ninjutsu, or do you just want the cool badge? If the latter, you're fine with your learn-by-book Black Dragon Society method. I still don't think you'll get anywhere near where you would with an instructor, but that's really not my problem, as it's not me doing that. If the former, though, your approach is completely out. But if it's the former, why would you be concerned about Takamatsu's or Tanemura's claims (or Antony Cummins', or Hatsumi's.... or mine.... )?

Really, it's as was said at the beginning of this thread. If Kumori Ryu is after something authentic, something that can legitimately be called Ninjutsu, then all he's got to look at is the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and legitimate off-shoots (note: not people who took a bit of training in a Kan, then went off and came back as "Soke" or "An-Shu", or even "Menkyo Kaiden" in arts that have no substantiation, or even particular skill-sets that don't have those titles applied to them. I'm sure you can think of who I'm refering to here....). If the actual authentic aspect doesn't matter, and it's just anyone with the cool badge, using the name whether there's anything to support it or not, then he can look at a lot of groups, but it really defeats the idea of looking for "ninjutsu" in the first place. After all, if it's not Ninjutsu, it's not Ninjutsu, no matter what it's called.

 

[Cryozombie]

but oh well here is my proof

Gyokko Ryu is a famous school of Kosshi-jutsu (called "Shito-jutsu" in older times) and is also known as Gyokko Ryu Ninpo - which was the source of Haku-un Ryu Ninpo from Iga. Gyokko Ryu is also the oldest school of Kosshi-jutsu and is the source of almost all Ninpo Taijutsu. Takamatsu Sensei taught that Koto Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Gyokushin Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Gikan Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu all descended from Gyokko Ryu.

Not really, thats a misquote/misinterpretation you are using to try to prove your argument.

*edit*

Oops sorry Chris, you beat me to that.

 

[Tanaka]

He went from not being able to spell "Ninjutsu" correctly. And always referring to it "Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu"

To doing a little googling and thinking hes an expert on Ninjutsu(Or at least lecturing people that have way more knowledge about Ninjutsu than him). This is funny and offensive at the same time. Does he not realize his using very old arguments?

 

[Cryozombie]

This thread reminds me of the Offspring.

You know it's kind of hard
Just to get along today
Our subject isn't cool
But he thinks it anyway
He may not have a clue
And he may not have style
But everything he lacks
Well he makes up in denial

So don't debate, play it straight
You know he really doesn't get it anyway
Gonna play the field, and keep it real
For you no way, for you no way
So if you don't rate, just overcompensate
At least you'll know you can always go on Ricki Lake
The world needs wannabees!