New X-kan?

[Aiki Lee]

Thats funny... man those patches look very nice. I wonder if it was hard to think up the design?

:ninja:

How is it funny? The patch says Jizaikan. Its the name of the style. Why should it be flashy? Were the ninja of yore flashy? Stop mocking my teacher's patches. You sound like a fool.

 

[Don Roley]

Listen well. You do not know this man, but I do. I am a student of Jizaikan Aki-Ninjutsu, and before you go continue to talk about something you don't know about let me explain a few things.

Before you go much further, you should listen well to what I am about to say.

You have come in here saying that we do not have the right to state our opinions about the matter because we do not know this guy personally. Well, you have made the statement that Hatsumi has taken the ninjutsu out of the Bujinkan and I doubt you personally know him. Where are the facts to back up what you say? How the heck do you know what real ninjutsu is anyway?

The story you tell sounds like a weird comic book in many ways. Don't try using the word "dono" to try to impress us with your Japanese ability. The term is not appropriate in this situation and is rather dated. We are not talking about Japanese feudal lords.

And so Maienza left the Bujinkan because there was not enough ninjutsu in it anymore. Se where the hell did he get more ninjutsu training? Some of Hatsumi's students every so often? Gee, that makes sense. Don't train with Hatsumi because he won't teach ninjutsu but go to the students of Hatsumi who may know more than him.

Oh and those missing Koto ryu scrolls... Talk to Kizaru. He probably has forgotten more about the Koto ryu than Maienza probably ever will learn.

Your story for the excuse why Maienza did not get fifth dan does not hold water. If it was a case of being right now then traveling to Japan might be more than he was willing to do. But if he trained since the 80s there would have been loads of tai kais he could have gone to if he had been training regularly as you insist and taken the fifth dan test there.

And yes, he wants to call what he does ninjutsu but does not even want to study the art long enough to get a teaching certificate in a legitimate ninjutsu style. He has set himself up as a grandmaster and essentially ended his training. Well, for me, I respect those that keep trying to increase their knowledge by going to any and all training they can from a person that knows more than them. Hatsumi went to his teacher until he died. I can't think highly of anyone that takes a few years, thinks they know it all and stops that process of learning under another teacher like that.

And that is what I feel, that is what I will say and there is nothing you can do to shut me up. I have the right to have a negative opinion and it about the president of the United States, the Prime Minister of England and anyone French. What makes you think your group gets a free ride just because you belong to a few orginizations that get together to wear silly uniforms and call each other master? You don't like the fact that I don't think your teacher has enough training, tough! I came here to Japan to train over a decade ago after training with an American instructor and there is still new insights I find under my teacher's direction every week so you are not going to make me accept that your teacher would not learn something by training with Hatsumi or another teacher. Might as well accept that fact and respect our right to not hold your teacher up as a good example.

Oh, welcome to martialtalk. Enjoy your stay.

 

[Kreth]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Kreth/Jeff Velten
-MT Senior Moderator

 

[Aiki Lee]

What the heck do I know of ninjutsu? Not everything, I admit that. I do know enough to know that Maienza-dono's training is ninjutsu, and you missunderstood what I said about Hatsumi-dono. It's not that he didn't teach historical ninjutsu, but he did not enforce many of his students to master it, and so they would get lazy and sloppy. Not everyone is like this, mind you, but enough were for my teacher to decide that further ranking in the system is unneccessary.

By the way, I use the term "dono" to give my teacher (and anyone else) the respect that you are robbing from him. I do not use it as a gesture of servitude.
He lived with his instructor for years, trained everyday, and learned everyday. Munthe-sensei is above 5th dan in the Bunjinkan system, so if it bothers you that he didn't have proper training, believe me he did. After that he moved to a location where he could train daily with Hayes-dono. He trained every day with him for over four years. So as you can see, he has exceptional training in ninjutsus and is obviously qualified to teach.

Oh and when you say this, "Oh and those missing Koto ryu scrolls... Talk to Kizaru. He probably has forgotten more about the Koto ryu than Maienza probably ever will learn." You have just made a blanketly rude statement. I have not met Kizaru, you have not met my sensei. So there is no way for either of us to judge who knows more. Please think before you type.

Again, Just because Miaenza-dono refuses to take ranking, does not mean that he stopped his training. He kept learning more from many ninjutsus instructors, he just never got a new title. Does Hayes-dono count as an instructor, because he did spend quite a lot of time with him if you can recall.
Miaenza-dono has never stopped his training. He still visits with Munthe-sensei whenever he can. My teacher has been training in Ninjutsus since 1979 consistently. He has never stopped learning, he is by no means finished with his training, no true martial artist ever is.

I commend you for your determination to head out to Japan and learn ninjutsu, but just because my teacher doesn't live there, doesn't mean he has no idea what he is doing. And say whatever you want about political people, but leave my friends out of your insulting rants.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Master Bo Munthe, one of Hatsumi's greatest students.

I'm not saying you're lying, but I do believe you're demonstrating severe carelessness in your handling of the truth.

 

[ginshun]

Himura Kenshin,

A word to the wise, the "if your not training in Japan, or under somebody who regularly goes to Japan, then your training sucks" attitude pretty much par for the course around here.

 

[Bigshadow]

Himura Kenshin,

A word to the wise, the "if your not training in Japan, or under somebody who regularly goes to Japan, then your training sucks" attitude pretty much par for the course around here.

While I sort of agree with that sentiment, I wouldn't put it so harshly.:asian: I would simply say that people who are serious about their Bujinkan training should endeavor to train in Japan with the Shihan and Soke at some point in their training and continue to do so regularly, other times, they should make every effort to train with those that do.

It is kind of like the elementary school exercise where the teacher whispers to one student "many apples are red" and they are to pass it around and the last kid is to tell the teacher what was told and it comes out "My mom drives an SUV". The number of people between the source and the student makes a huge difference in what is being taught.

Just my opinions on this...

 

[rutherford]

I'm not saying you're lying, but I do believe you're demonstrating severe carelessness in your handling of the truth.

Going back to thread title, would Ninpo Goshinjutsu Mu Te Jinen Ryu be a new X-kan?

 

[Cryozombie]

Himura,

Let me ask you a few questions if you don't mind... unlike the traditionallists here who only seem to want to bash, I am actually interested in knowing more about your art...

Who did Maienza learn his Ninjutsu from, and what Ryu(s) is it? How long did he train after leaving the Bujinkan? Who did he learn the missing Koto Ryu scrolls from, and what has been taken out? How does Jizaikan compare in it's ninjutsu to what the Bujinkan does, and what makes the ninjutsu elements of the Jizaikan better, as you claimed?

I'm confused also... maybe you can clear somthing up, I think I misunderstood an earlier post... you said he has 7 blackbelts in an art... did you mean 7th dan in Ninjutsu, or is it blackbelts in several arts? And also you said he refuses to take ranks, so how did he get 7 blackbelts? Also, is he or isnt he ranked 5th dan in the 'kan? Insiders in the 'kan who would have access to that information straight from the source say no, but you said he does... sorry, all this rank confusion and contradictory statements is making my head spin.

One last thing, and don't take this the wrong way, it's really meant to be constructive help dealing with the members of this forum... Here is a quote from your earlier post:

the so called "martial artists" in the Bujinkan and To-Shin-do systems demonstrated very poor mastery skills. This does not mean that they are bad systems, just that somewhere someone got lazy and stopped making sure that the quality was good.

This post insulted 95% of the ninjutsu community of Martial Talk, and the Headmaster of their organization... that's NOT a good way to come on the board, make friends, be taken seriously, or change anyones mind. VERY unninja-like.

 

[Don Roley]

Ah, the web site is back up and something just clicked.

Rank means nothing in the Bujinkan. That is no secret. It is the reason given as to why the founder never went for any rank above fourth. Because the rank is not important, just the training, eh?

And yet.....

The old site made sure to list the fact that he had made fourth dan. Rank means nothing and he does not want to associate with it, yet he makes mention of his rank on his site.

The latest version spends a lot of time going over sour grapes. He spends a lot of time complaining about how rank means nothing in the Bujinkan instead of just not talking about it like folks like Kreth and others. Oh, but there was this little tidbit.

In 1988 He was sponsored to take his Godan 5th degree test with DR. Hatsumi.

At that point in the time-line, there is no more mention of him training with Hatsumi. I see now.

1- Guy takes fifth dan test with Hatsumi.

2- Guy leaves Bujinkan with fourth dan.

3- No mention of training with Hatsumi after #1.

Hey, I was not there but it seems pretty clear to me what happened. :whip:

Listen to Nimravus about Bo Munthe. You talking about scrolls being taken out kind of made more sense when you mentioned him. You really do not know that these scrolls were supposably taught, right? And you are pretty much relying on the word of......? Well, I think I can say that there probably are no scrolls that have been dropped from Koto ryu by Hatsumi.

Oh, and "Himura"... when someone who speaks and reads Japanese gives you advice about the language it is wise to listen instead of trying to argue. -Tono/-dono is not used in polite, modern Japanese. It is an old form used in the days of the feudal lords to refer to them. It is only used in a couple of highly formal ceremonial circumstances in the modern day. Your use of it in this conversation would come off as arrogent and rude to a speaker of Japanese. There is a whole lot of things in polite use of Japanese outside of vocabulary and grammer. Trying to out do the Japanese at being Japanese, getting it wrong and then arguing instead of correcting yourself does not look good from where I sit.

 

[Cryozombie]

Oh, and "Himura"... when someone who speaks and reads Japanese gives you advice about the language it is wise to listen instead of trying to argue. -Tono/-dono is not used in polite, modern Japanese. It is an old form used in the days of the feudal lords to refer to them. It is only used in a couple of highly formal ceremonial circumstances in the modern day. Your use of it in this conversation would come off as arrogent and rude to a speaker of Japanese. There is a whole lot of things in polite use of Japanese outside of vocabulary and grammer. Trying to out do the Japanese at being Japanese, getting it wrong and then arguing instead of correcting yourself does not look good from where I sit.

Cmon Don, cut the guy some slack... he is obviously a big Rurouni Kenshin fan, since Himura Kenshin is the main char in the series, and its common for anime to use those outdatted silly titles... you see a lot of self proclaimed "otaku" (who clearly have no concept of what an insult the word actually is or they wouldnt refer to themselves as such) speaking this "fanboy japanese"...

I'm trying to get some serious answers about his art, and you guys jumping on him isn't gonna help ME, thank you very much.

 

[ginshun]

While I sort of agree with that sentiment, I wouldn't put it so harshly.:asian: I would simply say that people who are serious about their Bujinkan training should endeavor to train in Japan with the Shihan and Soke at some point in their training and continue to do so regularly, other times, they should make every effort to train with those that do.

It is kind of like the elementary school exercise where the teacher whispers to one student "many apples are red" and they are to pass it around and the last kid is to tell the teacher what was told and it comes out "My mom drives an SUV". The number of people between the source and the student makes a huge difference in what is being taught.

Just my opinions on this...

You are probably right, I should have been more specific and said ""if your not training in Japan, or under somebody who regularly goes to Japan, then your taijutsu / ninjutsu training sucks"

That is probably a more accurate description of the prevailing attitude. I do however think that there is a decent number of japanophiles around here that think that no westerner could ever teach you any kind of martial art as good as a japanese could, but they would never come right out and say it. I won't say who, and its just my opinion, so take it for what its worth, but it is something to keep in mind.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

To me, that sounds like an overly fatalistic way of saying that you're not interested in being all you can be within the Bujinkan.

 

[ginshun]

To me, that sounds like an overly fatalistic way of saying that you're not interested in being all you can be within the Bujinkan.

In general I could care less about the Bujinkan, so if that is how it sounds, then it sounds right.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't have anything specifically against them either, and if there were a Buj dojo within a hundred miles of me I would probably check it out at least, but as it is I am not at all conserned with whether or not what I learn is "authentic Bujinkan" martial arts. Only with whether or not my training will make me safer. From what I have gathered from here and other places on the net and in real life, there is no orgainization standards or any controls on whether or not any specific Buj dojo is going to offer good training or not, so they each have to be judged on an individual basis anyway.

I guess my only point is that a good amount of people here think that

japan = good training
and
no japan = bad training

I am not trying to put any person or organization down, I just don't think that is the case.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If self defense is your primary goal, as opposed to getting proficient in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, then yes, I do recommend that you start looking elsewhere.

 

[ginshun]

If self defense is your primary goal, as opposed to getting proficient in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, then yes, I do recommend that you start looking elsewhere.

Just to be clear, I have never studied, and am not currently plannning on ever studying BBT.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

If self defense is your primary goal, as opposed to getting proficient in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, then yes, I do recommend that you start looking elsewhere.

Budo Taijutsu is a very effective self defense system. I am amazed by how many people in it are in the military, police or in a line of work where they need personal protection skills. Simply put if you train dilligently at it then in my opinion you will have some very good self defense skills!

I do not think that anyone here is saying that if you are not training in Japan that you are not getting good training. There are so many fantastic instructors throughout the world now that you can surely get great training in almost every country. However, if you wish to be current with Soke's budo then you need to make an effort to train with him or train with individuals that have recently trained with him.

Individuals on this board who live and train in Japan are very important to everyone here because they can give us insight as to what is going on over there and clear up things that otherwise we would be just guessing at. So if you are in Japan and training then we definately appreciate your input!

That being said some of the very best practitioners that I have met live and reside outside of Japan.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Bigshadow]

Budo Taijutsu is a very effective self defense system. I am amazed by how many people in it are in the military, police or in a line of work where they need personal protection skills. Simply put if you train dilligently at it then in my opinion you will have some very good self defense skills!

Very true, but just for SD purpose, BBT requires far more dedication and commitment than a basic course in SD. I would think one would have to be in BBT for far more than just SD to ever become proficient at it. (at least that is kinda what I thought he meant, of course I could be wrong )

I do not think that anyone here is saying that if you are not training in Japan that you are not getting good training. There are so many fantastic instructors throughout the world now that you can surely get great training in almost every country. However, if you wish to be current with Soke's budo then you need to make an effort to train with him or train with individuals that have recently trained with him.

Individuals on this board who live and train in Japan are very important to everyone here because they can give us insight as to what is going on over there and clear up things that otherwise we would be just guessing at. So if you are in Japan and training then we definately appreciate your input!

That being said some of the very best practitioners that I have met live and reside outside of Japan.

Well said!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Very true, but just for SD purpose, BBT requires far more dedication and commitment than a basic course in SD. I would think one would have to be in BBT for far more than just SD to ever become proficient at it. (at least that is kinda what I thought he meant, of course I could be wrong )

No doubt that if you wish to be good at self defense with Budo Taijutsu you will definately need to train. However, having said that how many people are really going to be able to apply what they learned from a three or four hour self defense course. (if that is what was meant) I believe that in order to be good at self defense in general you need to practice it and practice quite a bit. Apply the same amount of practice to Budo Taijutsu and I believe you can be very effective. Just my o2. (for what it's worth)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Bigshadow]

However, having said that how many people are really going to be able to apply what they learned from a three or four hour self defense course. (if that is what was meant) I believe that in order to be good at self defense in general you need to practice it and practice quite a bit. Apply the same amount of practice to Budo Taijutsu and I believe you can be very effective. Just my o2. (for what it's worth)

Very true! I agree 100%.