New to Wing Chun

[Flying Crane]

I'm not even referring to self-trainers. I'm referring to people who have been classically taught! Explain THIS to me. Fact, money doesn't buy you talent. Money doesn't buy you a good teacher.

there are a whole lot of lousy martial arts "teachers" out there, people who should not be teaching. Their students reflect this. Yet in the mainstream, this is becoming more and more common. So it's true, it can be difficult to find a good teacher, and one often ends up with a lousy teacher.

But trying to go it alone and pretending that method is a viable alternative is self-delusional. It doesn't work. As you've noted, lots of people who have trained under a teacher, even a good one, can't use what they've learned. Some people never get the knack of it, even with the best instruction. Some people are just like that.

If it can be so difficult WITH good instruction, why in the gods' names does someone think they would be successful WITHOUT good instruction? It boggles the mind.

and the notion of money never came into my mind. Cost is no guarantee of a good teacher. But a good teacher is a must. There is no way around that.

In all fairness we don't even know if his grandfather knows quality wing chun or not. You're just going based on what he's told you. Remember that he does not yet know Wing Chun.

If that is the only option, I'd start with the grandfather any day, over going it alone. At least it's something, from somewhere who's walked the path before. Might not be worth continuing with, but it's *probably* better than nothing, and certainly better than thinking he can figure this all out himself.

I'm sorry, but I've just been training for far too long to ever encourage someone to go about it this way. There are FAR FAR too many subtleties involved, things that you cannot pick up from video or books or articles, precise movements and positions that MUST be guided by a skilled teacher, and this stuff simply cannot be done alone. Get a teacher, or spend your time doing something else. Life ain't fair. Sometimes you don't get to do what you want, because what you want isn't available.

There was one good line from the original Karate Kid movie: Mr. Miyagi, on seeing Daniel practicing his kicks in the living room, "Ah, karate... you pretty good! You learn from book?"

It was painfully obvious that he had no good training.

 

[Boozmork]

I think we've had this discussion before. A good sifu vs lots of practice with sparring. Lots of people shouting, misunderstanding each other and eventually locking the thread.
Maybe the answer lies somewhere between the two points.

That's all I'm adding to this because I find it exhausting .

 

[dosk3n]

Yeah but these discusions are a great way to get your post count up lol. Im a stat whore

But yeah keep it on track.

 

[zepedawingchun]

and what is a qualified Sifu? I've seen WT 'technicians' be horrible teachers just as there are graduate assistants who teach better than professors do. I already see hints of bad kung fu just by listening to what's being said. Not saying your kung fu is bad, but of all the things I've heard that is my impression.

A. Someone who has been teaching/training for a number of years.

B. Someone who is not affraid to let people know they do martial arts, their name and reputation.

C. Someone who continuously studies and doesn't believe they have reached the pinicle of their art.

D. Someone who doesn't believe they've learned all there is to learn in their system.

E. Someone who doesn't brag on themselves. Most truely skilled MAist are humble and don't toot their own horn.

F. You'll know it when you see it. They let their hands speak for themselves. Their skill level just oozes from their every movement. People who are fakes reveal themselves very quickly. You don't need to know what Wing Chun looks like to see and know true mastered skill and knowledge.

Flying Crane said it, you might have to search far and wide, and money doen't mean the sifu is qualified. But there are a number of sifus out there who actually are good. You just have to wade throught the many, many, bad examples to find them. Remember, something worth finding and doing is worth the time and effort. That is one of the main problems today, people are too impatient and want it now. So when they find the first example of what they are looking for, they run with it.

I ain't gonna lie, my WC sucks but at least I put myself out there, go balls out and apply what I know. That is what Kung Fu is, earning skill through hard work and practice. I bet those guys have never sparred a second in their life. Also those guys did not have what we have today. I admit that seminar videos only go so far, but things are advancing in this area where people are able to put together a more complete curriculum giving us exactly what we need to train.

You're right, those guys (whomever you are talking about) did not have what we have today, they had more. Yeah, we have all this modern equipment like bags, sparring gloves, hand wraps, tournaments, UFC, etc. But they had more in training twice as long, twice as hard, not sparring but actual fighting or combat, challenges to masters of various schools just by walking in a kwoon and challenge the sifu (try to do that today and they call the police on you). But one thing videos can't give you is feel, and reading an opponent's energy, sensitivity, and how proper structure from your opponent feels, making sure proper position is followed while executing hand positions, the human touch factor. You will never learn THAT from a book or video, something you really need to learn and develop the proper Wing Chun skills correctly.

Training the hard way (meaning going full speed/power, applying technique under pressure) is the only option I have at the moment until my move to Mesa is finalized and might be able to attend a few WC classes in that area once I get some income..

People think doing things like tounaments, controlled sparring events (like the UFC and stuff) is testing under pressure. It ain't. Testing under pressure is getting into altercations or fights with some bully, defending yourself from true aggressors, the odd altercation between you and people trying rob or hurt you, defending yourself agains members of street gangs and stuff, that is true testing under pressure. So, it's not about going all out and using full power while training. Actually always doing that is not good for Wing Chun at all. What's missing from that is sensitivity. Sensitivity built through slow, constant repetition, building up by contact, to a skill level, testing it through drills, then sparring, then the various altercations you encounter through life.

Times are changing. You either move along with it or resist it and keep rejecting it every chance you have. Find what is wrong with online training and find a solution. Not be a part of the problem.

What's wrong with online training is the human touch factor. Wing Chun is an art requiring sensitivity through touch, responding through contact, feeling you training partner's intent and energy flow. You will never get that online. That is the problem. The answer is to find a qualified sifu and train, each and every day or as much as possible.

edit: another thing I wanted to mention is that similar to what some university professors go through, 'Sifu' are even worse at. Professors are supposed to continuously produce research and development but not all Sifu will do this. Once they attain the rank of teacher, all progress stops and they just teach what they know. They don't even continue putting into practice what they know because their students will go into competitions such as Man Up Stand Up and get destroyed by people who has gone under rigorous training..

All the sifus I know are continueously training, researching, growing, still progressing, never letting themselves (in their art) stand still. They are still putting into practice what they preach, which is continueing to learn. As part of the association I'm in (WCAUSA), our instructors are required to perform 25 hours a year in continued learning, training, progressing, and advancing skills to remain certified to teach. If not, then we lose our certification. Not everyone teaches under the 'professor syndrome'.

It's obviously not the system. Bruce Lee, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung, William Cheung, Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, all obviously made it work so why is it that modern fighters we commonly see, can't? The student is being shaped by the teacher, it's the teacher's fault if a student can't use the tools being given to them. What's my money going to buy me anyways? If I'm paying, I better be able to be proficient in a real situation.

Because Bruce Lee, Duncan Leung, Hawkins Cheung, etc. had the heart and soul and drive to do it. They are the exception, not today's rule. Today's students are imparient and want everything right this minute, they don't have patience. True masters of their art realize it takes time to gain the skill and knowledge of a particular system, especially in Wing Chun. The teacher helps to shape the student, but it's not always the sifu's fault if the student can't use the tools. Sifu can only guide you, YOU as the student has to learn to apply what is given to you. As a sifu, I can't make you do it or learn it, you have to do your part, like attend class as much as possible, question what you don't understand, apply what is taught you. If you pay me the money, you will be given the tools. You just have to learn to use them.

 

[yak sao]

People think doing things like tounaments, controlled sparring events (like the UFC and stuff) is testing under pressure. It ain't. Testing under pressure is getting into altercations or fights with some bully, defending yourself from true aggressors, the odd altercation between you and people trying rob or hurt you, defending yourself agains members of street gangs and stuff, that is true testing under pressure. So, it's not about going all out and using full power while training. Actually always doing that is not good for Wing Chun at all. What's missing from that is sensitivity. Sensitivity built through slow, constant repetition, building up by contact, to a skill level, testing it through drills, then sparring, then the various altercations you encounter through life.


Beautifully said

 

[Flying Crane]

People think doing things like tounaments, controlled sparring events (like the UFC and stuff) is testing under pressure. It ain't. Testing under pressure is getting into altercations or fights with some bully, defending yourself from true aggressors, the odd altercation between you and people trying rob or hurt you, defending yourself agains members of street gangs and stuff, that is true testing under pressure. So, it's not about going all out and using full power while training. Actually always doing that is not good for Wing Chun at all. What's missing from that is sensitivity. Sensitivity built through slow, constant repetition, building up by contact, to a skill level, testing it through drills, then sparring, then the various altercations you encounter through life.


Beautifully said

agreed. Actually, quite a lot of time in training ought to be slow, deliberate, and methodical, making certain that every movement, every shift, every stance, every technique is done right, driven from the foundation. Rushing thru, full speed, pedal to the metal training undermines this. The faster you go, the more your foundation and technique breaks down. Get it right, and gradually speed will come. But people see all this lightning speed crap on youtube, and think they need to start doing that RIGHT NOW. as has been pointed out, it's an Instant Gratification society we live in.

 

[IrishMonk]

Yeah but these discusions are a great way to get your post count up lol. Im a stat whore

Yep.... :jediduel:
Hey, that's 10 for me !! lol

 

[coffeerox]

People think doing things like tounaments, controlled sparring events (like the UFC and stuff) is testing under pressure. It ain't. Testing under pressure is getting into altercations or fights with some bully, defending yourself from true aggressors, the odd altercation between you and people trying rob or hurt you, defending yourself agains members of street gangs and stuff, that is true testing under pressure. So, it's not about going all out and using full power while training. Actually always doing that is not good for Wing Chun at all. What's missing from that is sensitivity. Sensitivity built through slow, constant repetition, building up by contact, to a skill level, testing it through drills, then sparring, then the various altercations you encounter through life.


Beautifully said

The problem with that post is that you're assuming too much.

1. Real tournaments are full contact and full speed/power. If you want to tell me that is not pressure than you're welcome to that belief but I think it's BS. If it's not pressure, go in there and prove it to me then.

2. We can't get into altercations so the next best thing is sparring. Don't undermine sparring just for the sake of winning the argument. In fact, thoughts like those are why WC students end up doing so terrible at events.

3. Sensitivity, well I can't speak for other people but I AM training in sensitivity. Have you looked at my training results thread? I did both Dan Chi Sao and Chi Sao with people who have learned it for at least a year now. I still have a lot to work on, but it's not like I'm not training it.

In the end, unless you're actually down here with either of us, training, you can't assume regardless of how well you think you know what is going down. You don't, you can only guess. It's better to stick to the downfalls of self-training, and I can even put in my 2 cents, having done it personally.

 

[yak sao]

WT people do spar, we even have a catchy little Chinese name for it called lat sau.
But we don't do it all the time. If we did, we would never learn to relax and it would be all about powering through each other.
The people on here trying to help you out with sound advice, I would venture to guess, have a combined total of over 200 years training under their belts. While we don't know everything there is to know about WC, we didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.
It sounds like you're going to continue to do what you do and that's fine.
Just do us all a favor and don't call it Wing Chun.

 

[coffeerox]

WT people do spar, we even have a catchy little Chinese name for it called lat sau.
But we don't do it all the time. If we did, we would never learn to relax and it would be all about powering through each other.

But if you don't do it you're never going to learn the reflexes needed for a real situation. I'd do it as soon as I'm at that point in the curriculum and do it as often as possible.

The people on here trying to help you out with sound advice, I would venture to guess, have a combined total of over 200 years training under their belts.

I understand that but we've covered everything already. You just want to sit there and make assumptions as to how people train without actually being there and in effect, be completely wrong.

You're welcome to your opinion about self-training but don't tell us what we do and don't do because you're not here with us.

While we don't know everything there is to know about WC, we didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.

Well I'm not an idiot, and the people I train with aren't idiots, so don't treat me like one because I do something you don't agree with. If I had an option, I'd be training like you, but that's not viable just yet. I'm getting there, so just bear with me for a moment.

It sounds like you're going to continue to do what you do and that's fine.
Just do us all a favor and don't call it Wing Chun.

Of course I'm going to do what I do. You can't tell me not to. I'm not going to stop calling what I do Wing Chun because you said so. I call it whatever I like. Favors are earned.

 

[Flying Crane]

Coffeerox: I'm trying to step back here and give you a straight bit of advice and maybe ask you a couple of honest questions as well.

Firstly, I'll tell you this: I would be very very very surprised if any experienced martial artist on this forum, wing chunner or otherwise, is going to tell you that going it alone without an instructor as a beginner, is a good idea. A few might hem and haw a bit and try and give you the benefit of the doubt, and suggest that *maybe* it might be better than nothing, why not give it a try and see what happens, whatever. But you are not going to get validation here for what you are doing. You aren't going to find a bunch of folks here who are going to encourage you with this.

What is it you are hoping to find here? I ask this honestly, because it's not my place, not my intention, to tell you that you ought to leave, so please don't misunderstand me. But I'm honestly trying to understand what you hope to get from this kind of discussion? The folks here are not supportive of this method. They aren't going to encourage you on this. If you are going to do it anyway, then what is it you want to talk about?

Look, you have a real interest in wing chun, and that's great. You don't have access to a teacher, and that's a bummer, truly. Reading about it, watching videos, researching to educate yourself about it, those are great things to do anyway, and nobody will discourage that. But you aren't in a place to make real progress in the meantime. You've suggested that situation might change in the future, and that's good news. I'd say hold off on the training until your situation changes and you can work with a good teacher. Then, GO FOR IT with all you've got.

In the meantime, pick the brains of the folks here, see what you can learn on the intellectual level. As was mentioned, there's a wealth of knowledge and experience amonst the folks here. So ask the questions and get them to open up. But the more you push this notion that you can train just fine without any real instruction, that's just gonna make the folks more hostile. Honestly, it's a bit insulting. I don't believe you INTEND it to be insulting, but it is insulting nonetheless. The folks here have spent many hours per week, for years and years to train, blood sweat and tears in the mix, effort, hard work, and dedication. And yes, I expect a fair bit of money as well. And we all struggle to understand and develop our skills. It just isn't possible any other way. To have some guy come on hear and talk about how he's doing just fine without a real teacher, and then to have the cahonas to call it WING CHUN, well, it's insulting and you aren't going to get a warm welcome that way. Nobody is going to respect that.

Trying to give you some honestly friendly advice here.

 

[IrishMonk]

I respect your ambition...I do. And I think you would make a FINE student, that's for sure. But I would just restate that the longer you train yourself, the more bad habits you will pick up...and the longer those bad habits are in play the harder to "undo" them.
Hell...I pick up bad habits all the time under the supervision of my Sifu AND Sigong ! lol. Thankfully they are quickly dealt with.
These seemingly small, subtle mistakes can be exploited easily by the Sifu ( or other Kung Fu brothers and sisters ) and thus point out why and how small differences makes or breaks your Wing Chun.

 

[coffeerox]

Firstly, I'll tell you this: I would be very very very surprised if any experienced martial artist on this forum, wing chunner or otherwise, is going to tell you that going it alone without an instructor as a beginner, is a good idea

Am I really going it alone? Because I am still receiving instruction, it's still being explained to me in detail (actually more so than in class), demonstrated to me as well.

So what's missing here? A live partner and on-the-fly correction. I have a live partner. It was difficult to find but we got it together. I don't have on-the-fly correction obviously but that is where the instruction comes in.

The wrong thing IS shown to me and also, the nature practicing is that you keep getting it wrong until it's right. The partner aspect comes into play, if the technique fails, you did it wrong.

What is it you are hoping to find here?

Intelligent discussion. Though this is not restricted to MA and I pretty much can't find it anywhere regardless of topic. People get too personal ,emotional and never have an open mind.

But you aren't in a place to make real progress in the meantime.

I agree with you, but I can't say I've made no progress at all. I went from learning the forms, studying the concepts and ideas to application and I ran into a wall at that point. I didn't have anything to hit, no partner to practice with. Then I found those things and started improving, but ran into another wall which includes sensitivity and bridging the gap. I definitely need to learn these from a live teacher.

 

[Flying Crane]

Am I really going it alone?

yes, you are.

Because I am still receiving instruction, it's still being explained to me in detail (actually more so than in class), demonstrated to me as well.

no, you are not

So what's missing here?

everything that matters

look, does the notion ever strike you that maybe, just maybe, all these folks here who tell you this is a bad idea, maybe they know something that you just don't want to see?

 

[zepedawingchun]

I agree with you, but I can't say I've made no progress at all. .

You might think it's progress, how do you know? And is it progress in the right direction, are you doing everything you've learned correctly? Only a qualified sifu would know and can tell you. Otherwise, you could be doing what you've learned incorrectly and then it really isn't progress, but things you have to un-learn. Wing Chun philosophy, 'once you do something wrong, it may be too late to change'.

I went from learning the forms, studying the concepts and ideas to application and I ran into a wall at that point.

Just because you know the sequence to the hand positions in the form(s), doesn't mean you really KNOW the form(s) inside and out, principles, theories, concepts, and various applications, etc. In a previous post, you stated this:

'The student is being shaped by the teacher, it's the teacher's fault if a student can't use the tools being given to them.'

Well, if you're training without a sifu's guidance, who is shaping you? Who is giving you the tools? You, yourself? How can you shape and mold, give yourself tools when you don't know the system and what the tools are? Also, what you're doing right or wrong? For all you know, you're doing everything wrong and going in the wrong direction. That's why you ran into a wall, no sifu to tell you where to go and what you should do next.

. . . . but ran into another wall which includes sensitivity and bridging the gap. I definitely need to learn these from a live teacher.

Wisest thing posted to date. But it's not like you're going to see a sifu, they teach you about sensitivity, and then you're done with them. Sensitivity is like stamina, you have to maintain it constantly or the skill goes away very quickly. You need a sifu not for just the sensitivity, for everything else included.

I'm smart enough to know I don't need to put my head on the chopping block to find out it will chop it off. You don't know the folly in your ways, trying to teach yourself and not having a sifu giving you proper guidance. I cringe at the thought of what you are doing, it could be truely dangerous. Because in 5 years from now, without proper instruction and guidance, you will be doing something, calling it Wing Chun, and it half *** works and you get your butt kicked by street thugs, hoodlums, muggers, who knows. And then you'll wonder why your Wing Chun failed you. I've seen it all before and believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

 

[coffeerox]

@zep

I just got done saying that I was wrong what more do you want? Judging by your posts I think that your kung fu is bad. You don't hold the standard of Chinese Martial Arts and I wouldn't learn from you even if it was free and you came down here.

 

[Rion]

I always wanted to know this, but how did MA any MA start? Their couldn't have always been a a teacher at some point down in time their must have been a person who created their fighting system to help themselves.

I know this may sound stupid but some monk somewhere must have fought, "Hey if i punch like this and kick like this, i wont get hit".

I have always wondered at that everything needs someone to begin the journey otherwise how does it get started.

Anyway deep and meaningful thoughts over i would have to side with most people on here and say try and get a Sifu, a real good teacher will show you how you need your elbow a inch higher or slower.

And it may not matter to you but it does work.

 

[geezer]

@zep

I just got done saying that I was wrong what more do you want? Judging by your posts I think that your kung fu is bad. You don't hold the standard of Chinese Martial Arts and I wouldn't learn from you even if it was free and you came down here.

Navi, I think this reply reveals a lot. You know that there are a lot of WT/WC/VT people in our area. Joy teaches the Augustine Fong/Ho Kam Ming lineage, there's Leung Ting WT, Ebmas WT, our WT offshoot, the NVTO, a Benny Meng school, and also related systems such as Martin Torres "DTE" escrima which includes some solid WC concepts along with FMA and MMA, and if you like sparring, some of his guys compete in cage fights. So theres's a lot out there. Some cost more, some less. Some stuff is close, other stuff might be a 45 minute drive or more away. But if you really wanted to learn from a qualified instructor, you could definitely find one.

But, I get the impression that you feel that you can do better on your own. What you've posted gives the impression that the real reason you are "self-training" with friends has little to do with your current financial and transportation difficulties, but is instead a conscious choice to do things your own way, using whatever resources you can find in books, DVDs and online.

Anyway, if that's your choice, so be it. It's a free country. Just don't expect the many experienced practitioners here to support your position. Or to give you a lot of respect when you are disrespectful of others. I mean look at that quote, for example. Now I don't know Zepedawingchun personally, but from his previous posts, I assume he's got a lot of experience. So why are you so disrespectful? I mean what does that accomplish? And as far as self-training goes, do you really feel you can do better cobbling together your own system from diverse online sources? To some, that might sound a bit arrogant or naive...or both. Please excuse my bluntness, but that's the way it looks to me.

 

[coffeerox]

But if you really wanted to learn from a qualified instructor, you could definitely find one.

Steve, you definitely showed me that it takes a bit more uncovering to find the right places and people. My online job has taught me to find things online and in doing so, I forget that there's networking (word of mouth), unlisted and so on, so forth.

But, I get the impression that you feel that you can do better on your own.

Not necessarily. While I am more inclined to believe I can do it on my own (I am a self-trainer in many things, including my job) I understand that in martial arts, you need somebody to continue taking it to the next level. I also believe that nothing is impossible. It may seem impossible sure, but undertaking the journey to defeat the impossibility will take you farther than you can possibly imagine.

What you've posted gives the impression that the real reason you are "self-training" with friends has little to do with your current financial and transportation difficulties, but is instead a conscious choice to do things your own way, using whatever resources you can find in books, DVDs and online.

No. It's finances and transportation most definitely. I've been saying to my friends for awhile now that I really need a Wing Chun school. Every time I go train, I think about needing to go to a traditional school.

Things would definitely change if the move to Mesa comes through. More job opps and better access to schools. I could attend your Kiwanis park class as it would be 13mins away or I can try a Sam Kwok lineage, Joy's or WT. The key factor is the job opportunity. I am working right now but it's not a lot of money, not the kind that will get me into classes and stay there.

Now you know a little more about my situation. My constant defense on here is because people don't know the full situation yet they want to assume and act like they know and just tell me what to do. It doesn't work that way. It also takes time to sort things out, it's not instant. I keep saying that I'm working on it yet people constantly hound me. There's other things in my life too. All I can do *for now* is go to practice once a week and train what I've learned. School is in my plans, but that is for the future.

So why are you so disrespectful?

Respect has to be earned and he has not yet earned it. He may have experience, but there are things that I see in his character (through his posts) that tell me he is a bad practitioner and not deserving to practice Chinese Martial Arts. Many western practitioners have forgotten what it means to practice martial arts and it goes beyond the fighting aspect.

Keep in mind that people come from all walks of life and have strengths in many areas. One of mine is online communities. I've been doing this for so long that it doesn't matter who the person is, I can psychoanalyze that person by what they say. I've had a tough time and I've previously received death threats from locals even. I had to learn how people think online.

And as far as self-training goes, do you really feel you can do better cobbling together your own system from diverse online sources? To some, that might sound a bit arrogant or naive...or both.

I don't think that I can do better, but I do think that I have a level of comprehension that allows me to do things that other people rarely possess. Like I said, I'm a self-trainer in many things. To the point where teaching one-self is a unique skill all on it's own. Just think about it, if I can teach myself up to a certain level/standard, how far can I get with a proper education? I am constantly pushing myself farther and farther because I have to do it the hard way. I think that in this day and age, many people have forgotten what that means.

 

[IrishMonk]

Sry Wingchun123... seems your thread has been highjacked irateton