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coffeerox

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I've said everything that you needed to understand, but you don't listen AT ALL. You want to argue with me, and that is all you want to do. I'm experienced in online communities enough to know what it is. Look at your above post, all you are doing is manipulating my words in an attempt to show that I am flip flopping around when I know myself that is not the case, and that is not the intent.

edit: I still stand by what I said. I can only go off of information that is available to me and if that information is incomplete, of course I'm going to run into a wall somewhere. Doesn't take away from my ability. I'm not saying it's not good. Not at all. Way to twist my words jerk. I'm saying it's not *entirely* viable because of completeness of information. We need someone to be able to properly lay it out in both written and demonstrate on video as well as orally delivering the concepts. It's possible because I've been able to absorb what's out there already.
 
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coffeerox

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Here is my final stance on this, because I'm not allowing you to argue with me anymore.

1. Everyone needs a teacher. Nobody is a unique little snowflake that you don't. That is why I created the first controversial thread that led us to all this mess. Because I needed live instruction as well as training partners.

2. Self training is not impossible. Doesn't matter what you say. It's not. I taught myself advanced computers and cooking (i'm not talking about basic stuff like you people *claim* to have self-taught). Am I *really* teaching myself? Not at all, I am still receiving instruction, just in a different way. As long as I'm not an idiot and I actually experiment and practice, you WILL get results. Refining what you learned, cross-reference and more practice will lead to better skill, this goes for anything that you do.

3. Reason why one is able to train themselves is because of the information from others. Therefore the best collection of information and the best tutorials will lead to better training. I'm not necessarily talking just about martial arts but across many different areas. Believe it or not, but it is difficult to learn how to play World of Warcraft, Starcraft or Street Fighter by yourself. However, you CAN train yourself to a certain standard so that you can take yourself to the next level when you are competent enough to be able to fight a live opponent (I'm still referring to the games).

We have guys from Korea that can do 300 actions per minute on Starcraft. Can you even comprehend what the hell that means or how you even learn to do these things? They wouldn't be able to teach you how to do it, they can only give you the concept and you have to learn how to do it yourself. There is a level of self-sufficiency that I believe is lost to us in this generation.

4. Level of self-training depends on the person. You can't relate somebody else's self-training experience to somebody else's self-training experience. It's a personal experience so you have to consider the individual. You cannot consider the individual unless you've met and trained with them.

I need to mention Rachael Ray. She is epitome of self-training. Here is a quote by her:
"I have no formal anything. I'm completely unqualified for any job I've ever had."

Yet her cooking and her success speaks for itself. She went on Iron Chef America to beat Giada AND Bobby Flay.

Keep in mind that 2,3 and 4 are about self-training in general, not just martial arts but anything that can develop skill.
 

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Ladies and Gentlemen,

You may consider this an official warning.

Stop the attacks. Keep the conversations polite and respectful. Don't go chasing each other thread to thread. If you can't do this, you can expect the moderation team to take action.

jks9199
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zepedawingchun

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Finally, are we done yet? Sheesh! Coffeerox, you sure are a long winded Mofo. Let's go out and get a cup of coffee. I'll buy, but none of that Starbucks crap, okay?
 

MJS

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I've said everything that you needed to understand, but you don't listen AT ALL. You want to argue with me, and that is all you want to do. I'm experienced in online communities enough to know what it is. Look at your above post, all you are doing is manipulating my words in an attempt to show that I am flip flopping around when I know myself that is not the case, and that is not the intent.

Actually, we are listening, and reading. The proof is in the pudding dude. I'm not manipulating anything, I'm simply pointing out a) the flaws in your posts, and b) the fact that one minute you're talking about how you're giving up on WC because there're no schools, then you talk about online teaching, then you go here, then there.

As for the link I posted....those are YOUR words dude, not mine. Not sure how one can be great when they're self taught. Sub-par, yes, great, no.

edit: I still stand by what I said. I can only go off of information that is available to me and if that information is incomplete, of course I'm going to run into a wall somewhere. Doesn't take away from my ability. I'm not saying it's not good. Not at all. Way to twist my words jerk. I'm saying it's not *entirely* viable because of completeness of information. We need someone to be able to properly lay it out in both written and demonstrate on video as well as orally delivering the concepts. It's possible because I've been able to absorb what's out there already.

So in a nutshell, you're willing to be sub-par, willing to go thru a bunch of material, only to be told later on that stuff is wrong, and then ya gotta go back and re-learn it again. Again, I never said you couldn't learn via video, only that you will not be on the same level as someone who trains with a teacher. What you fail to see, is that its impossible for someone to lay it out like you want to see it, on video. As for absorbing stuff....sure, you'll absorb stuff but it'll be incorrect. If thats what you want, knock your socks off. Again, instead of wasting time and money that you claim is tight, on video classes, get your *** to a live teacher. But anytime thats suggested to you, you come up with 1,001 reasons why you cant do this or that.
 

MJS

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Here is my final stance on this, because I'm not allowing you to argue with me anymore.

Umm...ok.

1. Everyone needs a teacher. Nobody is a unique little snowflake that you don't. That is why I created the first controversial thread that led us to all this mess. Because I needed live instruction as well as training partners.

So why dont you go out and get one?

2. Self training is not impossible. Doesn't matter what you say. It's not. I taught myself advanced computers and cooking (i'm not talking about basic stuff like you people *claim* to have self-taught). Am I *really* teaching myself? Not at all, I am still receiving instruction, just in a different way. As long as I'm not an idiot and I actually experiment and practice, you WILL get results. Refining what you learned, cross-reference and more practice will lead to better skill, this goes for anything that you do.

I assume you're reading what I'm saying here....again, never said it wasn't possible, just that it'll be subpar. Ive never done TKD, but after 20+yrs of training under a teacher, I could probably take a TKD video and mimick a form, however, were I to go to a TKD school, the teacher would probably have to make corrections. Would you go to a self taught doctor and have him perform surgery on you?

3. Reason why one is able to train themselves is because of the information from others. Therefore the best collection of information and the best tutorials will lead to better training. I'm not necessarily talking just about martial arts but across many different areas. Believe it or not, but it is difficult to learn how to play World of Warcraft, Starcraft or Street Fighter by yourself. However, you CAN train yourself to a certain standard so that you can take yourself to the next level when you are competent enough to be able to fight a live opponent (I'm still referring to the games).

So, am I reading this right...you're comparing real life fights to video games?

We have guys from Korea that can do 300 actions per minute on Starcraft. Can you even comprehend what the hell that means or how you even learn to do these things? They wouldn't be able to teach you how to do it, they can only give you the concept and you have to learn how to do it yourself. There is a level of self-sufficiency that I believe is lost to us in this generation.

No, sorry, I dont spend my time playing video games, I work a full time, 40+hr a week job and train with my teachers.

4. Level of self-training depends on the person. You can't relate somebody else's self-training experience to somebody else's self-training experience. It's a personal experience so you have to consider the individual. You cannot consider the individual unless you've met and trained with them.

I need to mention Rachael Ray. She is epitome of self-training. Here is a quote by her:


Yet her cooking and her success speaks for itself. She went on Iron Chef America to beat Giada AND Bobby Flay.

Keep in mind that 2,3 and 4 are about self-training in general, not just martial arts but anything that can develop skill.

And if you look further at that wiki article, from which you pulled that quote, you'll also see things that she isn't good at. Additionally, if you look at her partner, you'll see that his credentials are much more impressive than hers, so thats really a poor example, as it was not her, solely, that won.

But, anyways....good luck with the video stuff. Just imagine how much better you'd be, if you invested all that time and money into a live teacher.
 

coffeerox

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I assume you're reading what I'm saying here....again
Yeah you assume. Epic fail.

So, am I reading this right...you're comparing real life fights to video games?
Where's the comparison at? You fail at reading.

No, sorry, I dont spend my time playing video games, I work a full time, 40+hr a week job and train with my teachers.
It doesn't matter if you don't play. What I said relates to how you gain skill at something and you completely missed it. What if I replaced video games with a sports analogy? You would still say you don't play sports and work 40hrs a week and train with your teachers. That's a cop out meaning you don't understand what I said.

And if you look further at that wiki article, from which you pulled that quote, you'll also see things that she isn't good at. Additionally, if you look at her partner, you'll see that his credentials are much more impressive than hers, so thats really a poor example, as it was not her, solely, that won.
Listen to yourself. Rachael Ray is widely respected enough to have 3+ shows, +cookware line, books etc and all you're doing is dismissing her just for the fact that *I* used her as an example of a successful self-trainer. Do you see any other self-trained cooks on Iron Chef America? Or have all these other things which considered is a success? You're pathetic. You'd never beat me in an argument.

It's quite clear now that you don't understand the written word, so why don't you contact me on Skype, username coffeerox. Feel free to add me and initiate a voice call anytime.
 

WC_lun

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There are things you can learn very well without an actual instructor. Those things do not require constant minute adjustments made through visual and tactile input. Unfortunately for people who try to learn a fighting art without an instructor, they cannot be learned in this manner. This is similiar to surgery or driving a car. You could read about these experiences, or even watch them performed on video. However, to actually perform them, you need supervision and instruction that is much more personal and you must actually experience the real thing. In my opinion, making an anology of learning martial arts even to a low level, especially one as complex a one as Wing Chun to video games or cooking shows an ignorance of what it means to learn martial arts. That is fine because every one of us started out there. The advice you have been getting is not to make you feel bad or question your intelligence. It is so that you do not stay at that stage of unawareness any longer than you have to.

As far as your cursing and calling people names because you have had your feelings hurt or don't agree with what is being said is petty and uncalled for. For the most part you have been given sound advice as if you were an adult seeking information. Perhaps it is time to start posting as if you were a mature adult. If you aren't a mature adult then at least try.
 

coffeerox

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Unfortunately for people who try to learn a fighting art without an instructor, they cannot be learned in this manner.

Refer to my earlier post #1. Learn to read the damn message.

In my opinion, making an anology of learning martial arts even to a low level, especially one as complex a one as Wing Chun to video games or cooking shows an ignorance of what it means to learn martial arts.
I didn't make an analogy of learning MA to video games or cooking. I was talking about skill in general.

Have you even completed reading at the Freshman level? Now I can see why people can't even learn MA from instructional videos and books. You can't read and you have no comprehension. You're stupid. That is my conclusion.

For the most part you have been given sound advice as if you were an adult seeking information.
Don't try to take the goddamn high road. You know damn well that I've been constantly hounded and attacked in this thread. You're contributing to it right now. What does it matter to you? It's my life. You just want to talk **** b/c you say something other people agree with (even me). That's easy. I can do that too!

But yet you have no idea what *I* am talking about, so you dismiss it and talk **** as if I did not agree with you. I know how it goes on forums. You will do anything to take the dominant position and now I'm not letting you have it. You can keep taking shots but they won't work.

The advice you have been getting is not to make you feel bad or question your intelligence. It is so that you do not stay at that stage of unawareness any longer than you have to.

You're not even qualified to give advice. Who are you to be saying all these things? I never really questioned anybody's advice really (yes, even your dumb ***) however people see my points as 'weak' and you just want to go to town on me. F*** that. F*** you and whatever you rode in on. You can't even read any of my posts and my logic is so obviously higher than yours that you don't even understand wtf I'm trying to tell you.
 
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coffeerox

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:deadhorse
That's exactly what this is. What they don't realize is that I've dropped the topic long ago. What's after that, well that's up to them to figure out LOLOL

Oh yeah, I'm doing Kenpo X from the P90X DVD. What are you guys gonna do now, criticize me for using it? LOL bring it on
 

Nabakatsu

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Coffee, The WT lat sau program really isn't that easy to teach or learn, lol.
It looks like it should be, but I still have to force my sihings to lock out their arms and various other aspects, theres always minor corrections to be made.
You won't catch it in video either I'm afraid, because good luck knowing what to look for, even when you know, and it's in front of your face, if you can't feel it, and if the person your practicing with can't feel it, and than exploit your weaknesses, than yeah.. not much progress to be made..
 

MJS

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Yeah you assume. Epic fail.

Speaking of fails, how's that video training going? :)

Where's the comparison at? You fail at reading.

YOU are the one who talks about video games, not me.

It doesn't matter if you don't play. What I said relates to how you gain skill at something and you completely missed it. What if I replaced video games with a sports analogy? You would still say you don't play sports and work 40hrs a week and train with your teachers. That's a cop out meaning you don't understand what I said.

You want to gain a skill, correct? If someone wants to get better at something, its going to require that they do something, CORRECTLY, over and over and over. If you're doing something wrong, to begin with, no matter how many times you do it, it'll still be wrong.

Listen to yourself. Rachael Ray is widely respected enough to have 3+ shows, +cookware line, books etc and all you're doing is dismissing her just for the fact that *I* used her as an example of a successful self-trainer. Do you see any other self-trained cooks on Iron Chef America? Or have all these other things which considered is a success? You're pathetic. You'd never beat me in an argument.

Actually, I think you're wrong, as you can't argue very well, without getting frustrated as hell. You said it yourself in some other posts. :) You're line of thinking is, "Well, if someone else can do it, so can I!" And that is where you fail. I train BJJ, but no matter how long I train a week, I'll never be as good as Rickson. Just because he's good, doesnt mean everyone else will be on his level. Same with video training vs. real training....no matter how many video lessons someone takes, they'll never be as good as someone who trains with a real teacher. And speaking of pathetic.....well, I wont ask those questions of you. :D

It's quite clear now that you don't understand the written word, so why don't you contact me on Skype, username coffeerox. Feel free to add me and initiate a voice call anytime.

I understand the written word quite well. What you fail to see, and you show it thru your never ending frustration, is that when things aren't going your way, you get very upset.
 

MJS

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Refer to my earlier post #1. Learn to read the damn message.

I didn't make an analogy of learning MA to video games or cooking. I was talking about skill in general.

Have you even completed reading at the Freshman level? Now I can see why people can't even learn MA from instructional videos and books. You can't read and you have no comprehension. You're stupid. That is my conclusion.

Don't try to take the goddamn high road. You know damn well that I've been constantly hounded and attacked in this thread. You're contributing to it right now. What does it matter to you? It's my life. You just want to talk **** b/c you say something other people agree with (even me). That's easy. I can do that too!

But yet you have no idea what *I* am talking about, so you dismiss it and talk **** as if I did not agree with you. I know how it goes on forums. You will do anything to take the dominant position and now I'm not letting you have it. You can keep taking shots but they won't work.



You're not even qualified to give advice. Who are you to be saying all these things? I never really questioned anybody's advice really (yes, even your dumb ***) however people see my points as 'weak' and you just want to go to town on me. F*** that. F*** you and whatever you rode in on. You can't even read any of my posts and my logic is so obviously higher than yours that you don't even understand wtf I'm trying to tell you.

See, the problem here coffee, is that you let your frustration show loud and clear. I mean, look at this post alone.

Maybe you should chill out a little before you get yourself in trouble again. ;)
 

coffeerox

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In my opinion, making an anology of learning martial arts even to a low level, especially one as complex a one as Wing Chun to video games or cooking shows an ignorance of what it means to learn martial arts.
**** it, I'm not gonna stop.

Who the **** are you to say that video games are not as complex? Who the hell are you to say that it's ignorant to compare video games to MA?

Have you won a national tournament before? Have you cooked for a major restaurant as the head chef and nationally acclaimed for your work? I'm pretty damn sure you haven't, so stfu.

In fact, it's pretty damn ignorant of you to dismiss other areas of expertise that are respected by many people and takes a lifetime to master. Starcraft itself is a game which uses the same motto as WC "easy to learn, but difficult to master". Who the **** are you to tell me it's not as complex?

You don't know anything about being sponsored by a corporation, being paid 100's of thousands of dollars to play and expected to come out on top. What do you know about 300 actions per minute? NOTHING.

You don't know anything about undertaking the massive journey to master either video game competition or cooking and it's not that dissimilar to taking the journey to mastering a martial art. It takes the same dedication, practice, interaction with peers, study as martial arts. The only difference is what you are doing.

Take Street Fighter for instance. Do you have any IDEA, any iota what you need to be able to react properly to a situation WITHOUT THINKING. Being able to perform commands with pinpoint accuracy, 100%, every time, against a fighting opponent who will try to stop you the entire time? On top of that, you need to be able to judge distance and use attacks which leave you safe, but also be aggressive enough to do damage which will include mind-games, not that different from boxing feints/tricks, etc.

It's not as simple as picking up the controller smart guy. Can you tell me what frame data is for? Or what a frame trap is? Of course you can't. You can't blindly assume that b/c it's a video game, you can pick it up in a day or two, master it and tell me you're going to whoop my ***.

In the process of telling me that I'm ignorant, I show that you are the one that is in fact, ignorant.
 
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coffeerox

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And that is where you fail. I train BJJ, but no matter how long I train a week, I'll never be as good as Rickson. Just because he's good, doesnt mean everyone else will be on his level.
Of course not. Because you're too busy thinking in a straight line and don't have an open mind. You subscribe to the belief that you'll never be as good as him, therefore why try? You're just gonna do what you do, being what you'll always be. Average.

I do not subscribe to the belief that "If they can do it, I can do it too" DEFINITELY NOT. I know I've tried a lot of things where I couldn't grasp the concept and I was just terrible at. I accept those things.

The difference between you and I, is that I don't place any barriers in what I do. The sky's the limit if I put the time, and if I have the talent for it. That's not to say, you go around saying you can beat anybody or are better than everybody. Most definitely not. I've gone through a period of my life when I did that in video game competition, not being on their level, get destroyed because they knew wtf they were doing. I learned my lesson.

You have to think that there's always something you can improve, something to perfect, there's always a new idea out there waiting for you to try it out and seeing what happens as a result. Pushing yourself to become better and better and better.

One day, you start to realize that your personal quest has made you one of the top people. It's not because you compare yourself to the top people, I can attest from personal experience, if you do that, you will NEVER reach the level they are at. The only thing stopping you from being better than Rickson is you. Your OWN personal barriers. Remove those barriers, gain more experience, be hungry for competition, learn from your mistakes and keep on going. You may, or may not ever beat Rickson, but if you train well, no one else can beat you and if they did, they'd have to fight all they have to do it.

Rickson did not get the way that he is by just training. The Gracie family holds a lot of values, discipline, mindsets that dwarfs anything that you thought possible. They did not get this way by saying, hey, we may never be as good as <so and so>. There's more to it than just training. That's only one part of it. I gave you the other part but I believe that it's beyond your comprehension at this point.

edit: I notice you say "no matter how long" this is wrong. Just because you have time does not mean you can become better than somebody. Time is certainly a factor, but quality of training within that time frame that you have is more important.
 
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Boozmork

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This is surely going to be locked up soon. It used to be kind of funny but now it's just making me feel sad.
I said on page two that this would go nowhere and it's obvious that we have about the same chance as agreeing on which religion (if any) is correct. There's no right and wrong answer, just subjective opinion, we don't have to agree with self training and calling it Wing Chun (personally I don't) but I will use my Wing Chun to protect anyones right to improve themselves.

Lets just get past this and talk about something else as a community rather than be at each other throats all the time.
 

MJS

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Of course not. Because you're too busy thinking in a straight line and don't have an open mind. You subscribe to the belief that you'll never be as good as him, therefore why try? You're just gonna do what you do, being what you'll always be. Average.

I do not subscribe to the belief that "If they can do it, I can do it too" DEFINITELY NOT. I know I've tried a lot of things where I couldn't grasp the concept and I was just terrible at. I accept those things.

The difference between you and I, is that I don't place any barriers in what I do. The sky's the limit if I put the time, and if I have the talent for it. That's not to say, you go around saying you can beat anybody or are better than everybody. Most definitely not. I've gone through a period of my life when I did that in video game competition, not being on their level, get destroyed because they knew wtf they were doing. I learned my lesson.

You have to think that there's always something you can improve, something to perfect, there's always a new idea out there waiting for you to try it out and seeing what happens as a result. Pushing yourself to become better and better and better.

One day, you start to realize that your personal quest has made you one of the top people. It's not because you compare yourself to the top people, I can attest from personal experience, if you do that, you will NEVER reach the level they are at. The only thing stopping you from being better than Rickson is you. Your OWN personal barriers. Remove those barriers, gain more experience, be hungry for competition, learn from your mistakes and keep on going. You may, or may not ever beat Rickson, but if you train well, no one else can beat you and if they did, they'd have to fight all they have to do it.

Rickson did not get the way that he is by just training. The Gracie family holds a lot of values, discipline, mindsets that dwarfs anything that you thought possible. They did not get this way by saying, hey, we may never be as good as <so and so>. There's more to it than just training. That's only one part of it. I gave you the other part but I believe that it's beyond your comprehension at this point.

edit: I notice you say "no matter how long" this is wrong. Just because you have time does not mean you can become better than somebody. Time is certainly a factor, but quality of training within that time frame that you have is more important.

Well, thanks coffee, for telling me how I train. I've been training for over 20yrs, with a real live teacher, so I really dont need to be told, from a dvd student, how to train. Seems like you missed my point here. We could wish that we were as good as someone else, we could train hard every day, but the fact remains, that no matter how hard we do train, or what goals we set our mind to, fact remains, we may never be that good. Even other Gracie members have said that Rickson is beyond amazing.

I train hard, in the dojo, with my teachers and training partners. But I dont kid myself either. Just because I train, doesnt make me a superman. Apparently you seem to think that it will. Some things, no matter how hard we try, we may never achieve, and that is reality.
 

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This is surely going to be locked up soon. It used to be kind of funny but now it's just making me feel sad.
I said on page two that this would go nowhere and it's obvious that we have about the same chance as agreeing on which religion (if any) is correct. There's no right and wrong answer, just subjective opinion, we don't have to agree with self training and calling it Wing Chun (personally I don't) but I will use my Wing Chun to protect anyones right to improve themselves.

Lets just get past this and talk about something else as a community rather than be at each other throats all the time.

Yup, just like that other WC that was locked up. Some people, instead of looking at how they post, misunderstand whats said, take offense, and go on the defensive.

If someone wants to learn via another source other than a real teacher, fine. As long as they understand they'll be sub-par. Never said it was impossible to pick anything up. Whether or not its being done right is the real question.
 

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Thread locked pending staff review.

-jks9199
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