Need some feedback

[TKDmel]

I just want to run this up the flagpole to see what other peoples opinions are. This could be a bit lenghty but here goes. Back in 1989 I recieved my 1st dan from a master I had been with for almost 5 yrs. I was one of his first students and he valued my opinions about important issues concerning the school and the students. Back then I gave everything of myself to the betterment of the school. I was devastated as were many students when he up and moved to another city 3 hours away. He sold the school to one of my junior belts and even though I tried to continue with the new owner, his open lack of respect for me and others senior to him caused me and others to leave and train on our own. During the course of the next 15 yrs. I have trained and taught with other masters on the west coast, but due to numerous kidney surgeries I have never tested for my 2nd dan. About 7 months ago, I returned home to find a new school opened by a very close friend from the original school who was my junior but is now a 3rd dan. I respect him greatly and he is a good instructor. The problem is he is affiliated with the guy who bought the old school who is now a master as are a couple more students who used to be my juniors. I have never been bothered by not being able to test, but now that I am healthy and finding this to be the best time of my life, I am considering going for a "skip dan" to 3rd dan. I have fulfilled all the requirements and am more than ready as my instructor agrees. My dilemma is that the other "masters"(I use the term loosely) promoted by the guy that bought the old school, have told me they don't want me to test even for 2nd dan, and given no valid reason. I'd like to hear what some of you think about this situation.

 

[exile]

My dilemma is that the other "masters"(I use the term loosely) promoted by the guy that bought the old school, have told me they don't want me to test even for 2nd dan, and given no valid reason. I'd like to hear what some of you think about this situation.

The crucial question, I think, is what role these other instructors (as well as the school owner) will play in your test for 3rd. Normally, in promotion cases that I know about at the dan level, there are distinguished visitors from other schools in the general area whose rank exceeds (often by several dan levels) the level the candidate is testing for. The participate in the grading of the exam and help ensure that the candidate is tested fairly. Is an arrangement like that in place at your school? Or will the owner's cronies be the testing board? What role will your instructor, who sounds very much like he's on your side, play in the grading?

 

[Kacey]

I just want to run this up the flagpole to see what other peoples opinions are. This could be a bit lenghty but here goes. Back in 1989 I recieved my 1st dan from a master I had been with for almost 5 yrs. I was one of his first students and he valued my opinions about important issues concerning the school and the students. Back then I gave everything of myself to the betterment of the school. I was devastated as were many students when he up and moved to another city 3 hours away. He sold the school to one of my junior belts and even though I tried to continue with the new owner, his open lack of respect for me and others senior to him caused me and others to leave and train on our own. During the course of the next 15 yrs. I have trained and taught with other masters on the west coast, but due to numerous kidney surgeries I have never tested for my 2nd dan. About 7 months ago, I returned home to find a new school opened by a very close friend from the original school who was my junior but is now a 3rd dan. I respect him greatly and he is a good instructor. The problem is he is affiliated with the guy who bought the old school who is now a master as are a couple more students who used to be my juniors. I have never been bothered by not being able to test, but now that I am healthy and finding this to be the best time of my life, I am considering going for a "skip dan" to 3rd dan. I have fulfilled all the requirements and am more than ready as my instructor agrees.

This is an issue that speaks to integrity - not just yours, but that of the people around you. For myself, I was a II Dan for 7 years, for reasons ranging from a change in affiliation to graduate school; had I been offered the chance to "skip test" I would not have done so. One of my students moved here from Great Britain; his class unaffiliated due to concerns about the organization they were affiliated with, and he was a 1st gup for 15 years before testing for I Dan - and he isn't interested in skip testing either. But that's me, and 7 years is nowhere near 15 - and I'm still with my original instructor, and have been for 19 years. And being a 1st gup is not the same as a I Dan. And honestly, I think skipping II Dan is the smaller part of this issue.

My dilemma is that the other "masters"(I use the term loosely) promoted by the guy that bought the old school, have told me they don't want me to test even for 2nd dan, and given no valid reason. I'd like to hear what some of you think about this situation.

From what you've said, it sounds like sour grapes on their parts - and also fear. Your integrity appears to be intact, while they may have concerns about their own; after all, you left because the new instructor didn't respect you, even though you were his senior; they stayed (respected or not) and gained rank, apparently from someone who didn't respect them. This makes their own ranks suspect - but you remained true to yourself, and continued to practice and teach without pushing for rank. Whatever your reasons (and they sound like good ones - health should always come before testing) you will make them look bad - whether you test for II Dan or III Dan - to themselves, their students, to anyone who knows the history of the situation. The questions then become:

- will your current instructor allow you to test in the face of their opposition?
- will you get a fair test if the people testing you are against your promotion?
- will you be promoted if you do test?
- what repercussions are likely if you do test?
- what will happen if you don't test?
- what are the relative benefits and costs of testing (not money costs, but costs to your integrity and peace of mind)?
- is there any possibility of testing outside the organization? Repercussions there?
- what other problems can you foresee happening?
- are all of these (potential) problems worth the cost?

For myself, I test when my instructor tells me to test - thankfully, I have never had the problems you seem to be encountering; he kept me, and the other students in the class, clear of all of the political stuff right up until the time he left our former organization - to the extent that his leaving came as somewhat of a shock; I had no idea what was really going on until he held a meeting announcing recent events and their outcomes.

Please keep us up to date on what is going on with this issue - I can see why seniors wouldn't want you to skip a dan rank (I don't recall anyone who's ever done so in my current organization - we usually don't skip any rank above 9th gup) but I can understand it in your circumstances. The only reasons I can see for them blocking your testing to II Dan are self-serving ones; I see no bar to it based on what you have said. Good luck to you.

 

[TKDmel]

The crucial question, I think, is what role these other instructors (as well as the school owner) will play in your test for 3rd. Normally, in promotion cases that I know about at the dan level, there are distinguished visitors from other schools in the general area whose rank exceeds (often by several dan levels) the level the candidate is testing for. The participate in the grading of the exam and help ensure that the candidate is tested fairly. Is an arrangement like that in place at your school? Or will the owner's cronies be the testing board? What role will your instructor, who sounds very much like he's on your side, play in the grading?

That is the dilemma Exile, the testing board will consist of the 2 masters promoted by the master that bought the school and him. My instructor is on my side, but the building he teaches out of is also owned by the master in question. A real catch 22! Imho my instructor would back down for fear of his lease not being renewed. I'm currently exploring the possibility of preforming for and having an independent 4th dan sign off on my "skip dan" application. If the KKW says I can test, then none of them could deny me the right to test. But its alot to think about. My other option is to travel the 3 hr. trip to my original master and prove myself to him.

 

[exile]

That is the dilemma Exile, the testing board will consist of the 2 masters promoted by the master that bought the school and him. My instructor is on my side, but the building he teaches out of is also owned by the master in question. A real catch 22! Imho my instructor would back down for fear of his lease not being renewed. I'm currently exploring the possibility of preforming for and having an independent 4th dan sign off on my "skip dan" application. If the KKW says I can test, then none of them could deny me the right to test. But its alot to think about. My other option is to travel the 3 hr. trip to my original master and prove myself to him.

Whew... TKDM, my gut reaction is, do the 3hrs and get tested under fair conditions. It sounds like you're going into a poker game with marked cards that everyone but you knows about. You're right, your own local `good guy' instructor is in an untenable position given the apparent politics at work. And even if the KKW gives you the green light, that does nothing more, really, than let you have a green light to drive into a brick wall---the KKW can't actually be there to ensure that the test is fair...

There are I think too many variable at play to assume that even having a high-ranking dan-holdersign off on your application will give you a fair shot. Would you be driving the 3 hours? That seems to me a far better strategy---much better chance of a fair outcome, a chance to catch up on old times with someone who you have a good working relationship with and---this is my own little bit of petty vindictiveness coming out---a chance to sort of thumb your nose at the guys in town who are trying to freeze you out. In your situation, I'd do the travel and reap the reward!

 

[TKDmel]

Exile, you are very right about the politics involved in the local TKD schools here. So much so, I wouldn't know where to begin, and really can't go into detail due to some of the individuals involved in my situation, being relatively speaking, high-ups within areas of the USAT. I guess my gameplan is to continue doing what I feel is best and just keep training and helping my fellow students the best I can regardless of my situation. I overcame my health problems and I will overcome this problem eventually as well. Ultimately as long as my spirit soars and my outlook is positive, I'm setting the best example to fellow students. I would prefer to stay well away from the politics.

 

[exile]

Exile, you are very right about the politics involved in the local TKD schools here. So much so, I wouldn't know where to begin, and really can't go into detail due to some of the individuals involved in my situation, being relatively speaking, high-ups within areas of the USAT. I guess my gameplan is to continue doing what I feel is best and just keep training and helping my fellow students the best I can regardless of my situation. I overcame my health problems and I will overcome this problem eventually as well. Ultimately as long as my spirit soars and my outlook is positive, I'm setting the best example to fellow students. I would prefer to stay well away from the politics.

Sounds like a good plan under the circumstances... but you are still giving yourself the option of going for 3rd under your individual instructor, yes? If, as it seems from the feedback you've been getting, you've reached that level of expertise, your support of your fellow students might well have extra clout from your higher dan ranking. It's often the case that a letter of recommendation for a student from a full professor has much more impact in an academic context than a letter from an assistant professor. So I don't think it would be purely self-serving to go for the promotion, and would be well worth the time invested in the trip----just my $.02 worth...

 

[kenpo0324]

If it was me, I would do the 3hr Trip and get tested under fair conditions by my original master.

 

[TKDmel]

Sounds like a good plan under the circumstances... but you are still giving yourself the option of going for 3rd under your individual instructor, yes? quote]

I have time to figure out my feelings and options for testing and whether to just go to 2nd instead of skipping since the next BB test is in a couple weeks and I will not have sufficient time to submit all the necessary paperwork now. The next one is in April/May. This will give me time to speak to my old master and get his feedback on the subject though I must be careful how to brooch the subject with him about the possibility of a skip dan. He is very much a traditionalist and may be offended at the suggestion of it, which I totally understand. I will instead show by example what I can and have accomplished and leave it in his capable hands.

 

[exile]

Sounds like a good plan under the circumstances... but you are still giving yourself the option of going for 3rd under your individual instructor, yes?

I have time to figure out my feelings and options for testing and whether to just go to 2nd instead of skipping since the next BB test is in a couple weeks and I will not have sufficient time to submit all the necessary paperwork now. The next one is in April/May. This will give me time to speak to my old master and get his feedback on the subject though I must be careful how to brooch the subject with him about the possibility of a skip dan. He is very much a traditionalist and may be offended at the suggestion of it, which I totally understand. I will instead show by example what I can and have accomplished and leave it in his capable hands.

Good plan---the skip isn't really the important thing, you'll get there in the end and go still further---it's getting tested under fair conditions. That's the crucial bit. If the politics is as bad as you describe, then best to put in the 6 hour round-trip and get a fair grading than waste your time with people who for some reason don't want you to advance.

Keep us posted on how it goes as the time approaches, yes?

 

[ArmorOfGod]

I just want to run this up the flagpole to see what other peoples opinions are. This could be a bit lenghty but here goes. Back in 1989 I recieved my 1st dan from a master I had been with for almost 5 yrs. I was one of his first students and he valued my opinions about important issues concerning the school and the students. Back then I gave everything of myself to the betterment of the school. I was devastated as were many students when he up and moved to another city 3 hours away. He sold the school to one of my junior belts and even though I tried to continue with the new owner, his open lack of respect for me and others senior to him caused me and others to leave and train on our own. During the course of the next 15 yrs. I have trained and taught with other masters on the west coast, but due to numerous kidney surgeries I have never tested for my 2nd dan. About 7 months ago, I returned home to find a new school opened by a very close friend from the original school who was my junior but is now a 3rd dan. I respect him greatly and he is a good instructor. The problem is he is affiliated with the guy who bought the old school who is now a master as are a couple more students who used to be my juniors. I have never been bothered by not being able to test, but now that I am healthy and finding this to be the best time of my life, I am considering going for a "skip dan" to 3rd dan. I have fulfilled all the requirements and am more than ready as my instructor agrees. My dilemma is that the other "masters"(I use the term loosely) promoted by the guy that bought the old school, have told me they don't want me to test even for 2nd dan, and given no valid reason. I'd like to hear what some of you think about this situation.

I say go for the 3rd dan "skip test." If your new instructor gives you a test, and you pass it, then you are what you just tested for. More importantly, it is his belt to award. If he feels comfortable doing it, then that is the end of it.
Go for it.

AoG

 

[exile]

More importantly, it is his belt to award. If he feels comfortable doing it.

But that's the problem---it doesn't sound like it is his belt to award. It sounds like the grading panel will be composed of a number of instructors who have already gone on record as opposing TKDM's testing even for second dan, for no apparent reason, even though his own (local) instructor thinks it would be warranted for him to skip to third. If they're that negative about TKDM just going for second dan, what kind of objectivity or fairness are we looking at here? Sounds like they've just made up their mind that he just isn't going to advance, period. Three hours on the road seems like a small price to pay to get a little fairness in what is bound to be a major, demanding belt test...

 

[Kwan Jang]

I have never been in favor of the "skip" clause, but since it is allowed and you feel the need, you might as well go for it. I would also encourage you to deal with this through your original master instructor. The fact that he is the master behind all the others should put an end to any question of how legitimate your rank is among your "naysayers", including the guy who bought the school from him. OTOH, once he has heard the full story and if he feels you should be testing for 2nd dan (as he well might,I'm a bit of a traditionalist in these regards too and I know what my awnser would be), I feel you should respect that and I'd still advise letting him test you. This would take the political pressure off of your current instructor and you could at least be confident that the results of your test is the results that you have earned.

BTW, driving three hours to test is not that big of a deal. My black belt candidates have to drive 8 hours for their exams (and I'm a 6th dan on the judging panel, though we don't judge our own) and I have to fly thousands of miles for mine.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

You know, this whole "driving 3 hours" deal is odd to me. If our head instructor wants to promote someone to a dan level, he just tests them and does it (he is a 5th dan himself). He does not have to get anyone's permission to promote them.
His instructor is in the same town and he is an 8th dan, but does not need to approve of any promotions.
If I want to promote someone to a dan level, I will just test them and promote them. That is the end of it. There is no panel of black belts required (we do it anyway, but it is not required), there are no promotion fees, there is no permission required from other schools or instructors, it is very straight forward.
Politics hurt my head. I enjoy a little gossip every now and then, but I don't like anyone telling me that I can or can't promote someone.
I guess that is one of the downsides of being in a strong organization.

AoG

 

[exile]

You know, this whole "driving 3 hours" deal is odd to me. If our head instructor wants to promote someone to a dan level, he just tests them and does it (he is a 5th dan himself). He does not have to get anyone's permission to promote them.

The prob here seems to be that the new school head and his `palace guard' are the ones TKDM has to get through---his own `local' instructor gets trumped by these guys...

Politics hurt my head. I enjoy a little gossip every now and then, but I don't like anyone telling me that I can or can't promote someone.
I guess that is one of the downsides of being in a strong organization.
AoG

Seems to be something personal going on here---old bad news, insecurities, maybe some twisted idea of `payback'... yeah, it does hurt one's head.

I agree w/Kwan Jang, three hours, no biggie. And I gather from what you say, TKDM, that the skip-testing isn't that important to you, you just want a fair shake for whatever belt you're testing for. Absolutely reasonable...

 

[TKDmel]

I have never been in favor of the "skip" clause, but since it is allowed and you feel the need, you might as well go for it.

I have never felt the "need" to skip a dan, but I do feel that by the examples I set for others, my "perserverance" to continue my training through many years of physical pain before surgery freed me of it, and trying to pass on my knowledge and skills, in my heart I am already a 3rd dan. And that is what is most important of all.

OTOH, once he has heard the full story and if he feels you should be testing for 2nd dan (as he well might,I'm a bit of a traditionalist in these regards too and I know what my awnser would be), I feel you should respect that and I'd still advise letting him test you.

Though there is still a part of me that will never understand why my original master up and left us those many years ago, I have spoken to him since and still today would do whatever he asks of me, so not repecting his wishes just isn't in me to do. The past is the past.

BTW, driving three hours to test is not that big of a deal.

I agree whole-heartedly that a 3 hr. drive is not a problem, however, since I used to live in Ca. I currently only own a motorcycle and since winter has arrived, I will have to wait for the next test in April/May. It will give me time to figure some things out and to get a better handle on the goings on with the other masters and their motivations. As I had stated, we were all friends and collegues so maybe we can be again for the betterment of TKD. Time will tell.

 

[Brad Dunne]

TKDmel, your not alone in your situation, been there and done that in a similar fashion. Suffice to say, your more than likely going to have to look for an alternative venue. As stated, it looks very much like personal bias from some of the folks you have to deal with. For whatever reason(s), it seems that your not welcomed or wanted. As for going to your original instructor, the 3 hr drive, I don't think that will be of any real value to you. After all, their all inter-related, business wise, through the school(s) and organizational structure. Simply put, they have his ear, because they have been with him and you haven't. I honestly don't think you'd get a fair shake.

As for the "skip" ranking, it is authorized by the KKW and it is done all the time for lots of folks, so why not you? It's an opportunity to make up a "little ground" in an accepted fashion. From 1st to 3rd is the most requested and accepted skip.

It would be nice, if someone from MT, who may live fairly close to you, could assist and test you. Just thinking out loud.........

 

[terryl965]

It would be nice, if someone from MT, who may live fairly close to you, could assist and test you. Just thinking out loud.........

Brad that is true there are alot of great TKD'ers on here and I'm sure someone could or would if they where ask the right way and was close enough to do it for him. That way he and everybody else could stay on there path without any fiction.

 

[TKDmel]

I want to thank those who have given me their support and suggestions. You have all given me much to think about in terms of what it is I really want and where I want my TKD path to go. I feel that to allow those who would block my advancement to defeat me mentally, morally, and spiritually is unacceptable. When I had the chance to speak to my old master, I felt the pride and respect he always had in his heart for me, in his every word and gesture and I knew he was glad to have me "home". I will make every attempt between now and the next BB test to train with him at his new dojang and when I do test, I will have the pride of earning whatever rank he deems fit. I will strive to live by the tenents of TKD and be able to hold my head high in front of and in spite of the other masters.

 

[Kacey]

I want to thank those who have given me their support and suggestions. You have all given me much to think about in terms of what it is I really want and where I want my TKD path to go. I feel that to allow those who would block my advancement to defeat me mentally, morally, and spiritually is unacceptable. When I had the chance to speak to my old master, I felt the pride and respect he always had in his heart for me, in his every word and gesture and I knew he was glad to have me "home". I will make every attempt between now and the next BB test to train with him at his new dojang and when I do test, I will have the pride of earning whatever rank he deems fit. I will strive to live by the tenents of TKD and be able to hold my head high in front of and in spite of the other masters.

Very well stated, and demonstrative of a very high level of integrity and self-respect, as well as respect for those around you. I congratulate you, and hope to live up to the same standard. :asian: