National Security Letters, acquisition of financial date by the Feds.

Flying Crane

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Recently there has been some news about the Feds secretly acquiring personal financial data on people here in the US, and questions surrounding the appropriateness of this practice. A couple days ago I saw Dick Cheney making some comments about this on one of the news stations on television. I wanted to comment a bit about what he said, because I believe he made some misleading statements.

He stated that this information was acquired thru the use of National Security Letters. This is a statutorially supported method for gaining information about an individual without a subpoena, and has been in use by law enforcement for at least a couple decades. I believe it was originally meant to be used against foreigners, as a way of tracking enemy spies in our country. The USA PATRIOT act broadened its authority to also be used against US citizens. At any rate, whether we agree or disagree with the practice, it is supported by the laws of our country.

However, I have some strong disagreement with what Mr. Cheney said. He stated that compliance with the information request is optional on the part of the financial institutions. He stated that most financial institutions choose to comply, but they don't have to, and they are free to challenge the request in court if they desire. These statements are extremely misleading.

I work for a well known financial institution, and I have handled National Security Letters in the past, and others in my department continue to handle them today. They are served by agents of the FBI and CIA, and request financial information about certain individuals.

There is tremendous secrecy surrounding the request. Usually, the agent contacts us by telephone and states that they will arrive and personally hand over a NSL. We receive the letter which outlines the information needed, and identifies the person. The person's name is never to be spoken out loud. We are not supposed to even talk about the request with our coworkers. We compile the information, but generate no correspondence with the agent that identifies the individual. When the documents are ready, we call the agent and simply tell them "the documents you requested are ready", but again, we do not mention the name over the telephone. The agent arrives at our office and we hand over the documents in an unmarked, sealed envelope.

We are under threat of criminal charges for non-compliance with the request, or for notifying the subject individual that his records are being sought. This is true for us as an individual, as well as punishment for my company.

It is true, my company could object to the request and file a challenge in court. Keep in mind, anything can be challenged in court. But what this means is that we would need to spend time and money to challenge this issue, which is frankly none of our business. We have no interest in making the challenge, and no reason to spend the time or money, so we don't do it. To do so would put our company into the role of shield and legal counsel for our financial client, and that is not our role. So we don't do it. Basically, his problems are his own, not ours, he just happens to be a financial customer of ours. So it is not surprising that the financial institutions don't challenge these letters.

But for Mr. Cheney to characterize compliance as "optional", is just not true. He has oversimplified the situation, and expresses this to the public, most of whom are in no position to understand the complexity of the situation. This implies that the Financial Institution has the final say over whether or not the govt. receives the documents, and paints a picture of the institutions happily turning over whatever the govt. may decide on a whim that it wants. Once again, they are attempting to deflect the nation's suspicions, and place responsibility on the shoulders of others, in this case, the financial institutions.

The practice of serving NSL by the govt. has caused some outrage and suspicion of abuse. This outrage and suspicion is properly aimed at the Feds. But the Feds, thru the mouth of Cheney, have attempted to redirect that outrage at the Financial Institutions.

Either Mr. Cheney is actually ignorant of how NSLs work, or he is telling deliberate lies and half-truths.

Just wanted to comment. Thx.
 

michaeledward

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Either Mr. Cheney is actually ignorant of how NSLs work, or he is telling deliberate lies and half-truths.

My experience observing this administration through the last six years, leads me to choose option B, above.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.
 

Infinite

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The NSL's are handled that way just so you don't think you CAN object.

However it is true that no financial / other institution has to give up personal records without a sopena unless it is an executive order.

NSL do not qualify as executive order. Now your financial institution seems to have taken the stance of compliance. In which case all the secrecy is mostly to protect the company from having saids individuals private information shared to other people.

Your legal team could in effect file an appeal in a lower court stating that they do not feel the government has shown sufficient cause to violate trustee rights. At which point they turn it into a sopena.

AOL for example refuses these as common practice and requires a sopena.

--Infy
 
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Flying Crane

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The NSL's are handled that way just so you don't think you CAN object.

However it is true that no financial / other institution has to give up personal records without a sopena unless it is an executive order.

NSL do not qualify as executive order. Now your financial institution seems to have taken the stance of compliance. In which case all the secrecy is mostly to protect the company from having saids individuals private information shared to other people.

Your legal team could in effect file an appeal in a lower court stating that they do not feel the government has shown sufficient cause to violate trustee rights. At which point they turn it into a sopena.

AOL for example refuses these as common practice and requires a sopena.

--Infy

It's not this simple. Go back and read my post. We are under threat of criminal charges for non-compliance, and for disclosure to the client. Compliance is mandatory.

Yes, we could file objections in court, but then we would be acting as legal counsel to the client (who isn't supposed to know about it), and that is not our job. We are in no position to know about the clients activities, and certainly not in position to act as his legal counsel and shield. So of course we aren't going to assume the cost and labor of battling over this.

But again, to reiterate my point, claiming as Mr. Cheney did that compliance is simply optional, and it is the Financial Institutions who hold the final say over what gets produced is misleading in the extreme.

Sure, it is optional if you are prepared to spend a huge amount of time and financial resources to fight over it in court with the Federal Govt. That hardly makes it optional.
 

Ninjamom

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I think it boils down to 'burden of proof'.

Suppose, f'rinstance, that I were a financial institution, and the Gov. served me with a NSL. If compliance were truly 'voluntary', then I should be able to refuse, with no prejudice and no further consequences. The burden of proof would be on the Gov. to provide sufficient evidence of wrong-doing to justify a warrant, and THEN I would have to comply. From what Flying Crane is saying, though, it sounds like the burden would be on me, since I would be subject to criminal prosecution, unless I could contest the action in court and prove reasonable doubt as to why the release of information was necessary. THAT is a huge difference.

One other note: This erosion of our civil liberties is nothing new, and it has proceeded faster and farther than ever before, due mostly to the 'War on Drugs'. All of these invasive measures have been in place for at least two decades, and have been routinely used to fight suspected drug dealers (and the rest of us honest citizens have nothing to worry about :rolleyes: ). The Patriot Act merely extended this hijacking of civil liberties to the fight against suspected terrorists (and the rest of us honest citizens have nothing to worry about :rolleyes: ). So rather than blame the Bush administration, I am (in a wierd, twisted sort of way) grateful - since Mr. Bush has become such a lightening rod for criticism from all sides, it has brought this rampant errosion of civil liberties to open debate. Maybe we'll all wake up and actually do something to stop this steady erosion of privacy rights, instead of letting it go unchecked for another two decades.
 

Rich Parsons

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It's not this simple. Go back and read my post. We are under threat of criminal charges for non-compliance, and for disclosure to the client. Compliance is mandatory.

Yes, we could file objections in court, but then we would be acting as legal counsel to the client (who isn't supposed to know about it), and that is not our job. We are in no position to know about the clients activities, and certainly not in position to act as his legal counsel and shield. So of course we aren't going to assume the cost and labor of battling over this.

But again, to reiterate my point, claiming as Mr. Cheney did that compliance is simply optional, and it is the Financial Institutions who hold the final say over what gets produced is misleading in the extreme.

Sure, it is optional if you are prepared to spend a huge amount of time and financial resources to fight over it in court with the Federal Govt. That hardly makes it optional.

Not until someone brings suit and wins against a financial institute and or the government the protests wil not be there, for jsut as you said the non-compliance reasons.

In similiar issues with my company if the Feds or State authorities approach us for information we always as for the subpeona. Why? Because of law suits in the past. I know the situation is not exactly the same. I am just stating that until the FI's are more worried about loosing money and then they will begin to protest and have a leg to stand on for past cases. A sad state of affairs.

I also think that the current members of the sitting government have chosen to present data in a certain way only.
 
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Flying Crane

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In similiar issues with my company if the Feds or State authorities approach us for information we always as for the subpeona. Why? Because of law suits in the past. I know the situation is not exactly the same. I am just stating that until the FI's are more worried about loosing money and then they will begin to protest and have a leg to stand on for past cases. A sad state of affairs.

I also think that the current members of the sitting government have chosen to present data in a certain way only.


Yes, we certainly handle a large number of Grand Jury subpoenas, as well as Civil Subpoenas. If the subpoena is in place, we are obviously covered, and we will not turn over documents without established authority, which the NSLs seem also to do, but in a more secretive way.

As you also comment, my main point with this thread is in how the govt. (Cheney) presented the information in a very misleading way. Like it or not, I believe the NSLs are established and supported by law. It wasn't my intention to discuss the validity of NSL (altho that is a worthy discussion as well), but rather to highlight the slippery way in which the administration deals with criticism.
 

JBrainard

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One other note: This erosion of our civil liberties is nothing new, and it has proceeded faster and farther than ever before, due mostly to the 'War on Drugs'. All of these invasive measures have been in place for at least two decades, and have been routinely used to fight suspected drug dealers (and the rest of us honest citizens have nothing to worry about :rolleyes: ). The Patriot Act merely extended this hijacking of civil liberties to the fight against suspected terrorists (and the rest of us honest citizens have nothing to worry about :rolleyes: ). So rather than blame the Bush administration, I am (in a wierd, twisted sort of way) grateful - since Mr. Bush has become such a lightening rod for criticism from all sides, it has brought this rampant errosion of civil liberties to open debate. Maybe we'll all wake up and actually do something to stop this steady erosion of privacy rights, instead of letting it go unchecked for another two decades.

Personally, I would blame the Bush administration. If I'm not mistaken, the 'War on Drugs' was started by the republicans as well. Anyone see a trend?
Good point about Bush being a "lightening rod," though. I don't think that the groundswell of opposition would be nearly as large as it is if he wasn't so damn obvious with his self serving/screw the public politics.
 

Ninjamom

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Personally, I would blame the Bush administration. If I'm not mistaken, the 'War on Drugs' was started by the republicans as well. Anyone see a trend?
Actually, I'm pretty sure that was a Democrat thing. Bi-Partisan erosion of civil liberties?
 

JBrainard

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Actually, I'm pretty sure that was a Democrat thing. Bi-Partisan erosion of civil liberties?

We are both right. The War on Drugs has been supported/enhanced by both parties. Although, term itself was coined in 1971 by Rixard Nixon to describe a new set of initiatives designed to enhance drug prohibition ;)
Bi-Partisan erosion of civil liberties? Can't argue with that.
'Sigh'
 

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