Naihanchi Shodan Bunkai Exchange

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Sensei Mike,

Please don't let the remarks of a few dissuade you from your desire to share your knowledge and learn from others. If these people do not wish to share what they have to offer, they should simply ignore your requests, and you should feel free to ignore their posts.

This board was designed as a vehicle for information to be shared among martial artists in a friendly manner. Some people have yet to fully appreciate that, and I hope you don't let them deter you from asking others questions on this board.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-

Amen, it appears that we have a few malcontents that seem to like to disrupt some very fine threads. Just because they do not see things as others do, they have to feel their method is the only way of loking at it. I for one am tired of the attitude of some of the members who have decided to harass members who are looking to exchange knowledge.

If you do find yourself being harrassed by another member please put them on your ignorelist and report them to the moderators, we will then take the appropriate measures to rectify the situation.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

The opening movemnent which I tend to call the "praying Hands" this is what I have. Shows how high and how low the hands may go. From eyes to groin level. Second meaning you have grab the attackers hand and applying either one of two locks. Front lock, palm is drove toward the bicep, or Kote gaeshi lock which is front lock with a twist done to the outside of attackers body. The cross step could be acouple of takedowns. First drive knee, sole of foot or leg into the back of their leg. Second throw your leg is in front of theirssweeping the leg backwards like a harai goshi. The next movement say from the side a shoulder grab. The arm out straight is the grab done on you. Excute a vertical lock, also known as Tate', bent elbow lock, S lock. Once you drop him follow up with downward hammer fist strike to several targets, side of nose, temple, cheek, could also be grab of hair or clothing to drive them farther down follow up with another strike.
Bob :asian:
I believe some of this has been said about the wrist locks.

 

[chufeng]

Kinda looks like everybody's got the same general idea about this movement...shall we move on?

Or is there more to explore?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

My point about bunkai being dynamic, is that no way are you going to be able to explore ALL of the intricacies of an attack...

Gosh it WOULD have worked except he wasn't the 18 inches away that I'm used to...

His angle of attack won't let me do this...

etc., etc.

Without proper instruction AND one on one drills from every angle and distance, you really won't have explored even the most basic bunkai....and then there are the layers of technique within the forms...

Do any of you really expect to convey any REAL sense of what is happening without a tremendously complicated (and probably confusing) post?

I am not trying to be contentious...but reality based...if that makes me an a**hole, so be it...I can live with that.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

see below..........

 

[RyuShiKan]

One of many applications of Naihanchi 1

 

[chufeng]

I suggest any of you who think my posts are irrelavent, or arrogant, or contentious, go back to all of my posts and SEE what I've said...

I suggest that the "attitude" lies somewhere else...

If you think I have nothing worth contributing, then ask me to leave...and take your advice from JudoKid or Carbon, two of your finer contributers.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Since I am a person that believes actions speak louder than words..................To see the actual application of the above technique you can view it at the URL below. Go to the bottom MPEG that is 333kb.
The people in the MPEGs are Peter Polander (former Polish Judo Champion/Kick boxer etc) and Taika Oyata.
(naturally everything on the website is Copyrighted)


URL for our branch dojo in Poland.
http://www.kempo.org.pl/galeria.htm

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng

I suggest any of you who think my posts are irrelavent, or arrogant, or contentious, go back to all of my posts and SEE what I've said...

I suggest that the "attitude" lies somewhere else...

If you think I have nothing worth contributing, then ask me to leave...and take your advice from JudoKid or Carbon, two of your finer contributers.

:asian:
chufeng

AMEN to that!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

A question and a comment:

question:

? - Is Naihanchi shodan bunkai static in the sence that only 1 'organization; has it, or is it a reasonably common technique seen in many similar styles, but with some variations? (newbie question)


Comment:
Attitudes, worth of contribution, etc:
Theres a couple different attitudes showing thru... some are sarcasm, some are anger, some aren't clear to me. I dunno...
RyuShiKan trains extensivly in Japan. His perspective on the Japanese arts is very valuable. He has his right to share or not share as he sees fit within his own 'belief' structure on what is proper in this medium. Yiliquan1 until recently also lived and trained in Japan. Theres a certain perspective to be obtained by going to the root of an art. (2 examples as I know their background the best of those posting in this thread. No offence meant to anyone)

On "irrelavent, or arrogant, or contentious". We get alot of this...what one person calls 'arrogant' another calls 'blunt'. Who is right? I dunno. Maybe everyone is. Chufeng, your input is valuable here, as is everyone elses.

In any case, please keep this in mind... -ALL- of your opinions and experience are worth contributing. You have to keep in mind that some things do not translate well to a writen media, and that misunderstandings will occur. For those who do not wish to read what someone posts, use the 'ignore' feature. One thind to remember though is that even those you have great disagreements with may often share a nugget of wisdom with you...and you may lose it by locking youself off from it.

Now...this threads a discussion about a technique. Lets go back to the topic k?

:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Naihanchi Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan are three short forms derived from a Fujien Shaolin form...

It has its roots in Shaolin, its refinement in Okinawa, and its variations in many Karate systems (to include TaeKwonDo)...

It is a form common to many systems.

The bunkai in any of the systems are not static...the practitioner must adjust for distance, timing, and angle of attack regardless of the "base" application...when that happens, different weapons must be used...

I don't think that we can effectively explore bunkai in a written format...for those who disagree, please continue to post your applications...but, I was not the first to cast the "attitude" stone...and I believe my replies have been civil and appropriate...the only person I referred to as an a**hole, was myself.

If I see a point I can help clarify, I will...
I have learned from sharing on this board...I would like to continue to do so...but I won't waste my energy arguing over the cyberdojo...

Thanks for your input

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz


You have to keep in mind that some things do not translate well to a writen media, and that misunderstandings will occur.

Precisely my point which is why I believe "training" on the Internet is not a good idea. If people can't tell when you are joking, being, sarcastic or whatever how the heck are they going to be able to understand the finer points of a technique?? When I am teaching in the dojo and a student is watching technique they don't always get it even after it has been demonstrated several times...........they need to feel it to understand it.
There is only one way to study a martial art properly.........and that is hands on.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

For those who do not wish to read what someone posts, use the 'ignore' feature.

Sorry to be "blunt" but I find that option a bit childish. Sort of like poking you head back in the hole in the sand because you can't handle another opinion. It's a cop-out. Even though I don't agree with some folks on this board I will still read what they have to say................in some cases I have found those people I have disagreed with in the past to write some of the more enlightening things later on.

 

[arnisador]

Those who do not wish to share information or training ideas on the Internet are welcome to not share them here.

Those who do wish to share information or training ideas on the Internet are welcome to share them here.

Martialtalk.com is for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. Please, discuss the martial arts in a friendly way.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

question:

? - Is Naihanchi shodan bunkai static in the sence that only 1 'organization; has it, or is it a reasonably common technique seen in many similar styles, but with some variations? (newbie question)

Naihanchi Shodan is probably the most common kata among Okinawan karate and even a few of the Japanese off shoots have it.
It is one of the oldest kata and the "author" is not known, unlike some of the other kata.........say Kusanku for example.

There are slightly different versions of Naihanchi........some are "new" versions and some are older. Basically the "embusen" (directional layout) is the same with only slight differences in hand motions.

Naihanchi is rather simple looking in it's basic performance but most, if not all, of the movements have several different levels of technique from extremely basic or crude techniques, elbow smashes and stomps, on up to extremely advanced techniques that don't even resemble karate but look more like Chinese Bagua and TaiChi. (If anyone has questions about Bagua/Pa Kua talk to one of the Chinese stylist on this BB.)
With in Naihanchi there are kicks, atemi strikes, kyusho strikes, tuite, & blocks of a rather complex nature as well.

In Japanese there is a saying: "less is more", although Naihanchi is not by any means Japanese it is the physical embodiment of that idiom.
It's looks can be deceptive.
This is one reason why so many Karateka think it is a "baby kata" or "beginners kata"........far from it.
My teacher told me he has found no less than 300 life protection techniques and says he feels there are still many more. That is a lot because if you ever saw the kata performed it takes about 20 to 30 seconds from start to finish, and that's going fairly slow.

 

[Sensei Mike]

Well, this post makes 34 on this thread, 25 or so not mine. There's lots of discussion of so much other than the request in the thread. (Including some very welcome posts that I ignore the noise.)

I am still interested in a meaningful exchange of interpretations of the movements of Naihanchi shodan. I would appreciate thoughts on the movements to the right. So far, no one has posted a meaningful interpretation of these. (In fairness, there was one short description, that stated: "wrist lock, leg bite, focused knuckle strike...." But this level of detail was not my expectation in the exchange. To begin with, I am unfamiliar with the term leg bite.) There were also some welcome contributions regarding the hand movements up and down, a jpg of what appears to be an interpretation of these up and down hand movements, and a great link to some Oyata videos, one of which had an great interpretation regarding the up and down hand motions. Still there has not been any offerings regarding the movements to the right.

I do acknowledge that I was remiss in not including the opening common to several systems, where the hands rise, fingers pointing upward, and then point downward. There are a number of systems that I have studied that start by bringing the hands together, from the sides, to the front, without raising them up, and then down. (Two systems that descend from Kyan: Matsubayashi and Shobayashi Shorin Ryu and three systems that descend from Itosu: Shito Ryu, Shotokan and Kobayashi Shorin Ryu.)

My interpretation above, starts with a right handed grab of the right wrist, and the bringing of the hands together is the beginning of a lock. But since at this point (hands together) only the opponent's hand is pinned to your wrist with your left, it does not really constitute a "technique", per se. Perhaps there are other things that can be done with this short movement of bringing the hands together. If someone would like to describe that movement and its context in the remainder of the movements to the right, then that would be wonderful.

In a good faith effort to demonstrate what I would like to contribute, I described the beginning of a combination that I have. (Only the beginning and not the full combination.) I discussed the movement in the kind of detail that an experienced karateka and practicioner of Naihanchi shodan should be able to find useful. I included problems with setting up the movement, as well as dealing with a different attack that initially thought. I discussed angle, and attacker posture. I kept my jargon to a minimum and pointed out some aspects of the defender's posture and body mechanics, as performed in the kata.

Again, I discussed only part of the combination that I practice and teach. As I have mentioned before, my "combinations" always include takedowns from the movements of the kata, and in my description so far, though I have brought the opponent to right his knee, I still have not taken him down. I have hit him twice, but against a large, strong attacker, these might not have been effective. The ridge hand might have struck a thick neck, the elbow might have hit his cheek bone or forehead. This might not be enough to stop the opponent. If an opponent outweighed my by 100 lbs (pretty likely for a great number of women practicing the art) I would have little confidence that the ridge hand would do anything other than buy me time to set up the elbow. And If the elbow misses, I need to have something else.

The primary reason I have a takedown in every technique is that I feel it wise to never have full confidence that standing techniques will always work against a large, aggressive, powerful opponent. Even if I do hit with maximum power, my standing techniques might miss the target. The attacker should be assumed to be both moving and uncooperative target making small targets difficult to hit. (For example the weak bone of the temple is relatively small area connected to strong bone in the back, and especially strong bone, the brow, in front.) So if I miss the target (temple e.g.) I might daze him, maybe, but I need to be able to finish him and kata provides just that, so I can do it quickly using the movements of the kata.

Moreover, there is also the underlying assumption that there is (or could be) a second attacker. So while you are off trying to solve that problem, the original attacker, if not finished, can recover and rejoin. In my description of the attack, I mentioned the possibility of a second attacker to the left of your attacker. Near the time you connect with your elbow to the initial attacker, you should be anticipating an attack by the second opponent.

I opened this thread, (and have repeated since) with a request for someone else to offer an interpretation of the movements to the right. As I didn't get any, my initial interpretation was limited and did not include the takedown and finish. The stated purpose of the thread was for an exchange.

This first interpretation (movements to the right) was not expected to be new to everyone. Perhaps the follow up takedown ase well as finishing techniques might be new to some people, who have not considered the movements to the left in use as a continuation of the initial defense to the right. It's hard to judge with nobody offering an interpretation to the right.

But I imagine that across my 15 or so standing combinations, there might be something new to even a well-versed Naihanchi Shodan practicioner. Hence, the purpose of the exchange. Try to find something new and useful. In addition, I would certainly imagine that not all practicioners of Naihanchi Shodan have practiced the movements at length, with partners, in ground fighting applications.

So my offer stands: would anyone like to exchange interpretations of the initial movements to the right in Naihanchin Shodan? If not, let me go further. Would anyone like to offer an interpretation of Naihanchi Shodan that either begins at the point of the left elbow at the end of the movement to the right, or includes that elbow movement (and earlier movements, if needed) and continues on to the left.

Again, email is fine.

Let the noise begin.

-Sensei Mike

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Still there has not been any offerings regarding the movements to the right.

Actually if I am not mistaken there are 2 Mpegs on that site that deal with your question.

 

[RyuShiKan]

No I'm sorry I just checked again.........make that 6 mpegs.

 

[DKI Girl]

The Naihanchi Katas are exact duplicates of the first and second half, which means that the techniques can be used on either side of the body. So, therefore, it really doesn't matter whether we are using the first half or second half, it will work both ways.

After the step you have the elbow meeting the hand.

This can be a same side wrist grab, trap the hand and execute a wrist lock with the elbow moving towards the pinky. This will put your opponent in front of you to execute the next part of the kata.

For the down strike, Grab the back of the head or ear, if they are bald, bring the head down in a twisting of the neck to attack the right side of the opponents head (ST 5) with the punch in the kata.

dki girl

 

[Sensei Mike]

Still there has not been any offerings regarding the movements to the right. ...Actually if I am not mistaken there are 2 Mpegs on that site that deal with your question.No I'm sorry I just checked again.........make that 6 mpegs.

Would you care to identify them? Or is this an easter egg hunt? There are, I believe, 25 videos on that page, 11 with Master Oyata and 14 without. The Oyata videos are without question a great resource as his techniques and interpretations are wonderful.

But again let me restate the original purpose of the thread. I am looking to discuss interpretations of the movements of Naihanchi Shodan and in an effort to start somewhere, I began with the beginning of the kata (or to my chagrin, near the beginning of the kata for some). That is the movements to the right in Naihanchi Shodan. This kata takes a step with the left foot across the right and the right foot steps out to the right. The right hand moves out to the right so that the arm is on the same plane as the body and then the left elbow is thrust out towards the right hand.

I do have some familiarity with the Naihanchi kata practiced by Oyata students. In the past several years, I have trained under several. I am reasonably confident that the opening I have described is the way the kata is performed in what I believe Oyata's system is called today - Ryu Te.

There are thousands of combinations in karate that map to the direct movements of kata. There are many thousands more that are independent of movements in kata or use portions of movements found in kata. I am making an effort to master a very limited set of movements, those specifically found in kata. This thread is designed to exchange with others, interpretations of the direct movements of the kata. In the movements to the right, I am particularly interested in the foot work, a left step, right step sequence.

I would be very grateful if you would please share with me which mpegs on the web site apply to these specific movements that are practiced within the Ryu Te system.

Thank you.

-Sensei Mike

 

[Sensei Mike]

The Naihanchi Katas are exact duplicates of the first and second half, which means that the techniques can be used on either side of the body. So, therefore, it really doesn't matter whether we are using the first half or second half, it will work both ways.

IMHO, this is true of all but the opening movements to the right. This movement to the right is not replicated elsewhere. Similar arm movements are found to the left, but there is no crossover step preceeding the right strike followed by an elbow.

So once we finish with this technique, I agree, we are talking about mirror images.

For the down strike, Grab the back of the head or ear, if they are bald, bring the head down in a twisting of the neck to attack the right side of the opponents head (ST 5) with the punch in the kata.

That is a great follow up to the first elbow.

I do a takedown here. Recall that this attack can come from the right, so there is the potential of a second attack coming from the left. My goal is to do a takedown that drives the initial attacker into the path of a potential second attacker. In many other kata, there are turns where you spin. I have a variety of takedowns in these where I throw my opponent to my blind side, where, by definition, I can't see if he is about to hit me or not. For Naihanchi, there are no spins, so that is not an option. In any event, there are situations (2 attackers out in front, e.g.) where this takedown would insert attacker A in the path of attacker B.

Most Naihanchi systems load, or stack the hands after the elbow strike, with the right hand in chamber and the left just above and perhaps touching.

Prior to the "stack", I have my left elbow on the opponent's right temple and my right hand on his left side of his head. When I draw back, I change my grip. My left hand straightens so that my left hand can grab the hair on the back of his head. If there is no hair then grab the back of the neck, cupping the base of the skull. My right hand pulls back (to chamber), so that my right hand slides across his face so that the heel of my palm is on/under his chin. The top/side of his head is pulled to my chest.

My left downward block to the left, followed by my right "cross over" strike, is a snap of the neck. I use a body pivot to maximize my own power. The hands move together, not separate. This spins the attacker off to your left. He should wind up on his back, and if either the elbow or takedown were powerful enough, he would be at least dazed long enough for you to complete your finishing technique.

My finish is one of two, depending on how far away he falls (typically the taller, the further.)

I am going to use either my right step across, or the following left step to stomp to the head/neck area. In Shotokan, following the right cross step, the left knee comes up high which makes a stomp a direct sequence from the kata.

Some review. The attack is a right handed grab of the right. The goal is the takedown, where the stomp can be a great finishing technique. You have lots of mass propelling your leg downward, to an object (the head) that cannot "bob" back, as the head tends to when you strike it on a standing person. Also, if you choose, you can attack another very vulnerable target, the neck.

If you are using the left to stomp, this cross-over step followed by a downward side kick thrust or stomp is common to many karate systems and other martial arts. The cross over step is a rapid hop, to close the distance. And interestingly, many systems that practice a cross over step - side kick combination (whether a high kick or a stomp) step across the front, just as in Naihanchi Shodan.

To set up the takedown, there is a sweep/lock combination, both of which reinforce each other. This combo has a lot going on concurrently, as so takes a ton of partner practice. Then a quick strike to the neck to buy time for the elbow. The elbow, whether it hits its desired target or not, should have enough stunning power to set up the the throw.

The throw by itself, can break the neck of a smaller person, but against a large mass, this may not be the result, especially if the neck is very well muscled. But even against a very large attacker, it is effective in completing the takedown as that twist of the neck sends signals to the spine to relax a whole bunch of muscles in the neck, and torso. An immediate stomp flows directly from the next step(s) in the kata.

I would love some feedback.

First, I am a bit curious, which students that practice Naihachi have been taught, or figured out (as I have) this specific sequence?

I am far more interested to hear if anyone who hasn't looked at this interpretation before finds it a useful combination to add to their Naihanchi Shodan repertoire. I expect that some might need to try this on partners in the dojo before finding out if there are pieces that don't work well for a specific person, or against a certain kind of attacker (large, unresponsive to the wrist lock, etc.)

Finally, there have been numerous posts that claim that text cannot be used to adequately explain the intracacies of interpretations of kata. I would be very grateful if any readers would let me know if the level of detail I have provided DOES give enough information for an experienced Naihanchi Shodan practicioner to make use of. Please note that this thread was never meant to be targeted to novices, or those unfamiliar with the kata. The whole point of the "exchange" is that you have enough knowledge to use the movements effectively.

Any other ideas? I fully recognize this is just one of many, many for this initial sequence of movements to the right and left.

-Sensei Mike