Mystic Guidebook

[KyleShort]

The Guidebook

Hmm, so I finally got my hands on a copy of "The Russian System Guidebook" by Vladimir Vasiliev and I must say that I was suprised by what I read. I have noted a great many posts on interent regarding Systema where practitioners have downplayed the mystical (psychic) attachments that many outsiders give the art. But reading through this book I see that there are many statements that could be seen as mystical...three that come to mind as I type this:

1. staring into the mirror and eventually seeing your "animal form"
2. "charging" a glass of water with your bioenergy without touching it
3. Burining holes in pavement when releasing negative energy through your feet

So it seems that mysticism of this nature is very much apart of The System...are these concepts embraced by the general populous of Systema practitioners?

Soft Work

This is a tangent topic but it got me thinking. The videos I have seen of Sonnon's recent SoftWork(TM) seminars seem similar the videos I have seen of Systema. Of course, there are enourmous differences as well...but. How similar is Systema training to Sonnon's RMAX SoftWork(TM)?

 

[tichok]

Western people do not understand Russian-Style which is based upon psychological and psychic scientific research. They call it mysticism because they do not understand science of it. Russian doctors have not translated work into Western languages so people call paranormal sciences bad names like "mysticism".

Foreigners study Russian-Style but cannot understand deeper aspects connect to Russian-Style. They do not understand psychic energetic training. So they confuse psychological training and psychic training. It is very well understood in Russian-Style just misunderstood by "guests" to our martial art.

Mr. Scott Sonnon is distinguished Sambo champion and coach in Russia. Mr. Scott Sonnon is known by world for strength biomechanical teaching. Sambo is not Russian-Style and is based in inferior foreign sportive disciplines like Jiujitsu. Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev is master of combat as former member of the deadly Al'fa unit in elite combat subdivision of former Soviet Union Spetsnaz Special Operation Unit. World know Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev for psychoenergetic teaching. Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev understand deep paranormal sciences that much is obviously. Both Mr. Scott Sonnon and Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev practice Soft School, but Mr. Scott Sonnon uses this for mere sportive and health science. Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev as master of combat uses Soft School for combative and survival science.

 

[Woody]

Hey there all

Tichok, what a great reply to Kyle's post! As I have posted on another RMA forum, I have studied the Western Mystery Tradition for over twenty years as a an academically trained psychologist. I can't say that I have practiced it as I can't get past some sybolism though I do some of the drills such as visualization and breathing.

It was the breathing, that Systema calls square breathing, that captured my interest in Systema. I have long practiced it and called it circular breathing! My practices are static and designed to still the mind whereas in Systema, it is designed to still the body's fear response.

Western Science is a very powerful tool for exploring the measurable universe. Yet like all tools, it is effective in some circumstances and less so in others. Quantum mechanics is making some startling concetualizations and so-called Quantum Psychology is offering some brilliant insights too. Nevertheless, I personally think the universe is a much more vast and strange something than our limited minds can comprehend.

I don't personally know if there is a "God". I wasn't there and have had no contact with him/her/it. I certainily won't take the word of a so-called religious leader. I do know that I have experience and contact with the universe (at least that part that my senses perceive) and am open to the fact that there is more "out there" than I can know about.

I look forward to interacting with those who have explored the "psychic/psychologucal/mystic" aspects of Systema and seeing the "truth of it" myself!

Warmest regards
Woody

 

[tichok]

Yes no. When other Western psychologists come to Russia and study psychic energetic training you will learn difference between two. It will take long time before West understands true Russian-Style. It will be near impossibility for even trained psychologist to learn difference because studies in Russia are so part of Russian heritage. Russian-Style is part of Russian soul. Another problem is that most foreigners want to learn Russian-Style to hurt people. They are dirty inside and that is why they will never learn deep master. If they no heal ego they can not touch God. God animate spirit of Russian-Style.

This is why Mr. Scott Sonnon although powerful champion in sportive cannot know Russian-Style. He competitor. Russian-Style is not about winning wrestling but about surviving true battle. I know Mr. Scott Sonnon teach United States Special Operations Units for military but you need understand that if United States military want learn combat, need study from master of combat not master of sport.

This is no defence to Mr. Scott Sonnon. He is obviously great person and popular hero of Americans. But he is not Russian-Style representative and can never be because he does not understand Russian soul.

 

[Woody]

Hey there tichok

Of course you are so very correct about the cultural connection! I am embarassed to have fallen into that "Ugly American" habit of speaking before understanding.:uhoh:

Thanks for your gentle reply and I hope that some day we can meet and I will learn a bit of what I need to know.

Warmest regards
Woody

 

[KyleShort]

Right I actually don't disagree with anything stated...in fact what you have said only supports my point. I don't have any problem with psychic training or the idea of the paranormal. I, much like Woody, am very much a Western scientist and it is actually that Western science that allows me to understand that the world is far more vast than our limited concepts of it. There is plenty of room for the paranormal as far as I am concerned.

However, my original point is this. It is clear after reading the guidebook, and now reading Tichok's (although I don't know about your credentials) reponses, that Systema certainly deals with the paranormal (read mystical)...but I have seen many Systema practicioners emphatically deny such a connection. Why?

Also, regarding Scott Sonnon. I have to disagree with your notion that he cannot teach combat because he is a master of sport. To detail this would require a very long post but I will sum it up by saying that no one holds the monopoly on effective combat training and I resist the notion that "The Systema" is the superior (as implied with the comparison to Sambo and JuJutsu) art. I don't believe in superior arts, only different objectives.

 

[tichok]

Mr. Woody,

You need no apologize. Even if foreigner you can learn great things with Russian-Style. No person need go to danger training levels like great masters such as Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev. Great danger and pain bring great wisdom. To touch this you must go there. Like famous Sino-American hero, Bruce Lee said "everyone accepts some level of imperfections." This is to except special people like Mr. Mikhail Ryabko. Their sacrifices to God and Motherland give them special insights and powers. Maybe these are not right words but English language is very different.

Mr. Short,

Resistance is futile as you Americans like say. Russian-Style is ancient hybrid of each soul of Russian people. Mr. Scott Sonnon does not claim to represent Russian-Style but in popular vogue of American culture he "invented his own brand." It seem like so many Americans love themselves. In Russia there is saying "everyone in America is a President." This not disparages Mr. Scott Sonnon. He is proven great fighter and world coach. It just that United States of America is young country. Fighting depth limited by cultural depth what I say. Sportive fighting like Jiujitsu and Sambo are great athletics and fun. But true combat is no where represented like in Russian-Style. Foreigners think that this is nationalism but they do not understand. Yes, Russians are proud of Russian heritage. But this is not point. Russian-Style is superior because it paints on complete canvas of combat survival, not on small pallette of sportive fighting. Too many people love this new "politically correctness" speak of giving respect first. Survival gives respect. When combat veteran survives people respect him. Even if he a great boxer or Sambo player people do not respect him when he is first called to serve and sits scared in trench. You keep Western science using. You may eventually understand some part of Russian-Style with long practice with true master. But you will never be able to buy master. True master of Russian-Style would offended if you try to give him money. Russian-Style cannot be learned through capital exchange but only from love of one soul for another soul.

 

[Cruentus]

Tichok,

First of all, welcome to Martialtalk (I see that it is your first few posts).

I have a few questions for you.

#1. Do you think that only people of Russian blood can fully understand Russian style? I mean, do you think it is possible for a foriegner to understand?

#2. Do you think that it is possible that someone from another culture and martial art could learn and understand the same elements and concepts that exist in "Russian Style?"

#3. Do you think it is possible that a master from another culture and martial art could possibly exceed Russian masters in one or more elements?

Thanks

Paul Janulis

 

[tichok]

Tichok,

First of all, welcome to Martialtalk (I see that it is your first few posts).

I have a few questions for you.

#1. Do you think that only people of Russian blood can fully understand Russian style? I mean, do you think it is possible for a foriegner to understand?

#2. Do you think that it is possible that someone from another culture and martial art could learn and understand the same elements and concepts that exist in "Russian Style?"

#3. Do you think it is possible that a master from another culture and martial art could possibly exceed Russian masters in one or more elements?

Thanks

Paul Janulis

Mr. Janulis,

Thank you for your welcome. Pleased to be meeting you.

#1. No, foreigner cannot "fully understand" Russian-Style.

#2. Yes, foreigners can definitely improve and develop from learning Russian-Style.

#3. It is impossible for a foreigner to "exceed" a Russian master of Russian-Style.

 

[JimKing]

There are some who would greatly disagree with your answers, Tichok, many of whom are Russian! I can think of two true Russian masters who would laugh at the idea only Russian individuals can "fully understand" the System. Never in the many conversations I have had with these two gentlemen did either even hint at such an idea. Yes, some aspects of the System lend themselves much more readily to those who are of Russian heritage, but to boldly assert no one other a native Russian can be fully competent in the System is outrageously elitist. This is exactly what the System is not! There are some "foreigners" in the System who understand more about being Russian than native Russians. And while I do agree wholehearedly Vlad and Mikhail are consummate masters with few equals in the world, even they would not make the claim no one is better than a "Russian Master." Aside from blatant arrogance, to even make such a statement is tantamount to saying no non-Russian will ever equal or best a true "Russian" Russian Systema practitioner simply because the second person is ethnically Russian. That is ludicrous! It is these types of comments that beg for challenge and jeers from everyone on the outside and cause all types of schisms and unnecessary debates from within. Being "Russian" is not a qualification to living the System to its fullest (Yes, some Westerners do practice and train in the System for more than the martial qualities!). Obviously, there are native Russians who lack the understanding of the universal power and appeal of the System and its cultural heritage that is comprehended, practiced, and ingrained in the lives of those whose Russian accent is definitively Western.

My two rubles. Keep them; I have many more.

Jim King

 

[NYCRonin]

OK - let me step out of the moderator role here and post my 'personal views'.

First, the Guidebook mentioned is a translation of an interview series with my friend and teacher Vladimir. And you do have to know that, and read it carefully to understand what he was trained in and exposed to.
The Soviets tried many 'psy' experiements as did the USA -- and little of the results were proven conclusive. Period.
A good expample is that VV mentions that he and his peers were trained to discern between colors of paper by touch. It is mentioned as an experiment that he had to endure.
He has told me that he did not learn to read color by touch - and the translation is not as accurate as he would like - and eventually, someone will re-write that bood in a manner more accurate. It was produced by TRS -- not Vlad...and again, he has told me that while the translations are less than we will eventually produce -- there is still far too much accurate information to just 'throw out the baby with the bathwater'. In time - the next incarnation of that book will be more accurate and precise.

Now, now 'Tichok' -- the statement that ONLY a Russian can EVER fully understand Russian System is very reminiscent of what Americans were told by the Koreans, Japanese and Chinese and others - over 30 years ago. Until, of course; people of other nations showed they would excel in these arts - and surpass those that by chance or fate were born in any particular geographical location.

I would guess you are native born Russian. Am I wrong?
While it is natural for some to hold such nationalistic pride closely...my over 40 years in m.a. study have proved again and again - that any true knowledge is a gift to the world - to the overall development of 'humanity'.
The 'truth' of any art far exceeds the local of ones birth - and although one may need the overall experience of a culture to fully understand a nations 'soul' - at least ot some degree - the location of birth has very little to do with understanding all Systema (at least) has to offer ALL of its far flung practitioners.

I applaud your nationalism, celebrate your heritage.
But to say akin to "ONLY a Russian can fully understand Russian System" (and I speak ONLY of Systema here)...is to make a blanket statement that I doubt Vlad, or even his teacher Ryabco or even Komorov would disagree with.
A blanket statement that I, as a certified 'instructor' of Systema under Vlad V. AND M.Ryabco - cross trained with a few Spetz in Moscow....one who knows full well the power of the System from the very icons of the art (delivered thorough blood, sweat, tears and toil - not to mention their loving fists)...one who has prayed in the chapel on Ryabcos home -- well, I respectfully have to disagree.

Completely.

I am human...The System is a gift..to all mankind. One neds not be born Russian native to 'be' Systema no more than one has to be Japanese to be Zen...Frence to be 'savate'....nor american to drive an automobile.

TRUTH is TRUTH...no matter the source nor language or nationalistic 'soul' of origin.
I expect YOU to disagree - but also, I KNOW that VV or MR would not.

Study and learn from such exceptional teachers, such 'horosho chelybeyak' (good people) and learn also that ALL of us are human -- blessed in this - and open your eyes wide.
If not, in 20 years, the hands that place you to the floor may be those of a Canadian, they might be yellow, they might be black. BUT - what those hands will be are the hands of a practitoner of Russian System (Systema) -- who surpassed birth local and learned from the very teachers you mentioned. Teachers who KNOW that ALL are brothers...all deserve to find the truth they seek...and did 'the work' to find it, internalize it and 'be' it.

It may take some time for this to pass - but as the nationalistic Japanese (et. al) learned - Truth is Truth - and Systema knows no nationalistic limitations...for it is a gift to human understanding and growth - no matter where one is born.

Ok, back to being a moderator, for now.
Tichok - I only wish to open your eyes to what my wonderful RUSSIAN teachers have passed on to me. For your benefit and mine also.

 

[KyleShort]

This has turned into a great thread with some very interesting perspectives...and it is still respectful which can be hard to achieve some times

Regarding the guidebook. I understand what you are saying NYCRonin. Translating concepts, feelings and experiences from one language to another. Entire meanings can be lost with poorer fidelity. And I certainly would not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In this case I have not passed judgement on what I read, but it has lead me to probe. Are mystic/psychic aspects a part of Systema as a whole? I have seen lots of internet jabber where non-practitioners take stabs at Systema for being 'magical' etc. After looking through the GB it seems to me that such psychic elements are present. Don't get me wrong, I think that martial dicipline can certainly be full bore, hard core and still have other aspects to it. Just curious because I don't really see Systema practitioners talk about this very much, and when I have it seems as though it has almost been denied.

Tichok,

I think the others have pretty well spelled out what I was thinking as well. From where I stand I think it would be very safe to say that Systema is the best system in the world for achieving Systema's goals, whatever they may be. This to me is a very important distinction. For example, the primary goal of escrima is to teach the uncomplicated, practical, and effective use of melee weapons in a short ammount of time. I think it would be safe to say that escrima achieves this goal better than Judo. But of course Judo does not share this goal and therefor you could not call Judo a better or worse discipline.

 

[Furtry]

Kyle, discussing these topics in public forums leads to allot of misrepresentation and misunderstanding. The psychic work is psychological work. In other words if the person is unconscious he will not be manipulated.
Last thing, as NYCRonin stated, the book has some things mistranslated and taken out of context. Looking at the examples you pointed out and the context you presented them in. It all can very easily be taken to the level of the occult, which is NOT what Systema is about.
Tichok, tu nepamagaish.

 

[Paul Genge]

I have seen lots of internet jabber where non-practitioners take stabs at Systema for being 'magical' etc.

The majority of the critism comes from seeing work with little or no contact. On the last seminar in the UK with Michael Ryabko he stated, "There is nothing magical and no mysterious powers used. It is simply an understanding of psycology and physiology."

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

 

[Cruentus]

Mr. Janulis,

Thank you for your welcome. Pleased to be meeting you.

#1. No, foreigner cannot "fully understand" Russian-Style.

#2. Yes, foreigners can definitely improve and develop from learning Russian-Style.

#3. It is impossible for a foreigner to "exceed" a Russian master of Russian-Style.

That's what I thought you'd say. Well, in my opinion, that is the kind of ethnocentricism and "art worship" that can get you killed (possibly through underestimating your opponent or otherwise). I hope that we cross paths some day, and the we can exchange ideas, in the spirit of learning, on the training floor.

Thanks for your prompt reply.

yours,

Paul Janulis

 

[tichok]

It seem so many foreign 'instructors' of Systema come to represent their opinion of Russian-Style that I am not correct. That is no "big deal". I understand very well, Mr. Furtry

You may come to learn great deal with Russian-Style but that does not mean you are deep master. When a deep master of Russian-Style is born and raised in foreign country then you may say "tichok, you are wrong." Until then, I am proved right and you are proved wrong.
As American automobile salesmen love to say "the bottom line is" Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev and Mr. Mikhail Ryabko will never say that a foreigner has "exceeded" them. Everyone here know that this is truth no matter if they defended by my answers or not.

 

[Furtry]

It seem so many foreign 'instructors' of Systema come to represent their opinion of Russian-Style that I am not correct. That is no "big deal". I understand very well, Mr. Furtry

You may come to learn great deal with Russian-Style but that does not mean you are deep master. When a deep master of Russian-Style is born and raised in foreign country then you may say "tichok, you are wrong." Until then, I am proved right and you are proved wrong.
As American automobile salesmen love to say "the bottom line is" Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev and Mr. Mikhail Ryabko will never say that a foreigner has "exceeded" them. Everyone here know that this is truth no matter if they defended by my answers or not.

Actually Brad, I said "you are not helping".

 

[tichok]

Maybe "Brad" is curse where you live, not here.

You believe psychic is psychological. This is wrong. There are three aspects to Russian-Style. Physical. Psychological. Psychic. Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev even publish this in book.

Foreigners afraid to defend attacks from inferior styles and say "no, no, no. Psychic is just psychological." But psychic is psychic. Not Psychological. You are not logical. Thing can not be both A and not-A. It is not logical.

Offer Mr. Scott Sonnon as example of foreigner who is master of Russian-Style is not right. He is master of foriegn style. SAMBO. Even ROSS come from SAMBO. He is master of his own style. But it is not Russian-Style.

 

[Furtry]

Actually Tichock in this case your grasp of the english language is keeping you from mastering it this time. But then you're not Russian and you haven't discussed this topic with Vlad, in Russian, as I have. My Russian may not be perfect but it is fluent as I am a Russian, who was born in Russia.

Getlemen, I'm not sure what Tichocks song and dance is but he is a perfect example of why this topic is not visited on public forums.

 

[KyleShort]

Furtry,

Yeah I totally understand what you are saying. When I listed those three examples I did so in the interest of brevity, but even then I can see how the context is altered somewhat. I don't want to imply in anyway that Systema has anything to do with the occult. It is all a matter of social threshold. The concept of Ki and hara seems to be fairly well accepted in modern times, but a few hundred years ago it would have been considered witchcraft. The threshold continues to move.

In spite of contextual misrepresentation, there are things in the guide book that would fall into the category of mystical. To focus on one example, it was described that through cold water cleansing an individual could not only burn holes in, but break concrete through escaping negative energy. This seems to contradict the quote provided by Paul...clearly there are some magical aspects to this training (though I am not so ignorant as to associate slow training with magik)

Perhaps what is most important is recognizing that 'magic' is really just an occurence that science cannot explain...a pistol would have been a magical weapon back in ancient Greece.

I guess I can make this VERY simple and ask this....

Question:

Do Systema practitioners perform the exercises described in the guidebook, and experience similar results? Specifically those pertaining to charging water, animal forms, water dowsing and burning energy etc.?

BTW. I think that it is safe to assume that no one reading this thread would accept Tichok as representative of the Systema community on this forum.