Meetings between boxing and RMA

[RMACKD]

A bit hard to read but it is very interesting. I welcome anyone to try to put this is more plain terms since the translating is hard to read. http://www.online-translator.com/url/tran_url.asp?lang=en&direction=re&template=General&cp1=CP1251&cp2=NO&autotranslate=on&transliterate=on&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcclib.nsu.ru%2Fprojects%2Fsatbi%2Fsatbi%2Fstatyi%2Frus3.html

 

[alexk]

is there an original?

 

[RMACKD]

Here it is http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi/statyi/rus3.htmlI am not sure but the article seems to say that many rma practicioners got beat up pretty badly. The people were in question after that especially since in Russia many people combine a few traditional oriental systems and call it a RMA. Could someone try putting it in better english because I have problems with the translation. anyone know a better translator.

 

[alexk]

The article by Grigoryi Panchenko was originally published in the magazine called "Kempo" N4/96.

Wall Fighters vs. Boxers

Before I translate the gist of it, I feel that I have to explain what is “wall fighting”.
It’s used to be a tradition for the Russian villagers to fight each other in large groups – wall against wall of fighters. As I understand, there were no particular rules to this activity, except maybe not to attack a person who’s on the ground. The wall fighting was an integral part of the traditional Russian culture and it’s existence was motivated by the need to deal with the restless young men during winter and early spring when there is not much to do in terms of physical activities.

So, the point that Mr. Panchenko makes is that these wall fighters, even the very best of them, were in no shape to compete with professional boxers. These fighters, while strong in spirit and body, lacked proper technique and had no effective defense strategies.

During the twenties, when the Soviet Union didn’t have a lot of professionally trained boxers, a lot of these wall fighters made their way into the boxing ring. Most of them were easily creamed by the properly trained boxers. The modern “Russian stylists” do not like to hear statements like that. However, here is what one of the greatest Soviet champion K. Gradopolov remembers about one of those fights:

Among the championship participants, there were boxers from the small town of Kolchugin that is in Vladimir province. In those days it wasn’t likely to find good athletes there. Obviously they were inferior to the boxers from Moscow and we had to cut them some slack. It was simply a humane thing to do, and we decided to be kind to these young sportsmen so as not to discourage them from boxing.

I had to fight а fighter famous in Kolchugin, Vladimir Lebedev. I decided to conduct a fight with him as delicately as possible especially some members of the judging committee asked me about it.
On the ring we shook hands. The guy was well built, muscular, and had an open face.
It looked like he had a reputation as the best local wall fighter for a reason.

“OK, I’ll show you the advantage of the boxer technique over your fighting spirit” – thought I and started to waive an intricate web of fancy moves and light punches. It lasted for about two minutes. Everything was going fine, but the guy probably mistook my correctness for weakness. At the time when I was trying to show the advantage of technique over brutal force, the chap was concentrating on things more real.
As a result, I got a loud hit on my right ear. The punch wasn’t strong by so loud, the whole audience heard it. The spectators started to laugh.
The prestige of boxing was insulted. The country crudeness trumped the refined technique. The guy simply decided to floor me. “So that’s how you repay my noble kindness! Well then, now we’ll talk differently! It’s not about me anymore…”

And I punched him.

When the referee counted to ten and offered my opponent to get up, he imagined that the fight is not over, and, without standing crawled under the ropes to escape into the locker room. Obviously, he had dim notions about rules of box.

This match was a good lesson for me and my opponent.

How was it possible that I let through such a stupid hit? It’s something to think about. To fight a strong unschooled fighter is not that easy. Whereas boxer’s actions reveal some patterns, which are based on the rational movement technique, the natural fighter is acting erratically and you can expect from him the most unusual punches. But they can’t defend themselves and become the easy victims of a boxer.
[/QOUTE]

The last was a very important comment! Gradopolov is a Master of martial arts. That’s why even the pride of the victor combined with Moscow snobbery, didn’t stop him from recognizing the good aspects of the “wall fighting style” (just the style as it’s impossible to talk about the school.
….
If you refine the art of such natural punches and the defense with the well developed technique … But that no longer the a wall fighting: the combination of naturalness and rationality is the level of “aces” that is realizable only within a School. But purely folks fighting styles whether they are Russian or Native American, while expecting some training never ascended to the level of the School – this requires a number of additional factors.
Our native fighters learned the well defined techniques of attack and defense by joining the well developed schools – box, or either Spiridonov or Oshepkov sambo.

In the light of this, it’s really interesting that from 1922 to 1926 the title of the champion of the USSR in box belonged not to the boxer but to the fist fighter of the wall style – A. Ankudinov.

Let’s look carefully at this man. The whole history of him becoming a fighter his tactics and techniques are well described. They are done comparatively recently and not by ethnographers but by the boxing professionals – not only looked at but also participated in the fights with him.
…
In the boxing world he was know as “daddy”, not for his age (he got his title at 24), but precisely because of his country style manner.

Daddy fit the stereotype of a “Russian bear” perfectly. His movements were slow, with the entire surface of the foot touching the floor. The fancy foot work wasn’t characteristic for him. He had just one fighting stance.
…
As far as possible he preferred to attack rather than defend. While his strong knock out punches were not very precise, he was able to deliver them with both hands with almost the same effectiveness. (some contemporaries believed he was a hidden lefty)
These punches as well as stances already were not a part of the folk style. Daddy had to select a few of the most optimal movements. But they were not technique of the classical box. His famous punches where some combination of a hook, swing, and uppercut – wide movements from the side and bellow. He categorically ignored the series and combination punches.

The most typical style for him was uncompromising but not speedy “pushing” attack. Without a hurry, the “Russian bear” would break the opponent even if his punches missed the target. The great endurance and powerful built allowed him to bear the punches in proportion of greater than 3 to 1 of his. In the end one or two of his punches would connect and the fight would be over.
…
In addition to his ability to take the punches, the Natural fighter (another nickname of his), had some defense methods. His defense wasn’t typical for the either the box or the wall. No feints or moving away from a line of attack, but instead he used bents and dives (looks like the boxing influence). He wasn’t using the jumping or stepping away common for same wall fighters. Also, he didn’t use blocks. Instead he simply would put his bicep, shoulder, or wrist in front of the incoming punch (we can’t recommend such a defense technique to all our readers even the ones who are into Russian styles, it requires the Ankudinov’s build)
….
His optimal distance was the one that allows a punch without stepping forward – the midrange in modern terminology.
I hope that the readers are not bored with all these details. Unlike earlier fighters we have difficulty extracting even the smallest detail, that would allow us to understand the specifics of the Russian fist fighters. Ankudinov is the only one about whose technique everything is known.

His victories in 1922 -1926 are not the end of the story. Even the Natural fighter would leave the ring then, he would be remembered as the invincible wall fighter. But in the second half of the twenties, the well trained professionals become dominant in the sport.
…
Practically all of them remember with respect his endurance, strength, and courage. However, he had several fights with each of the professional heavy weights and lost ALL of them.
…
In those days masters of the ring came up with the principle: “With the boxer fight, with the fighter box.”
The fighter in this maxim is the wall fighter who doesn’t have much of the technique, but is dangerous because of his chaotic actions.
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Next the author goes to debate the proponents of the Russian styles.
I didn’t find it that interesting and, besides, I’m getting tired for today. If there will be sufficient interest I’ll finish the translation. But basically, he is saying that Russian style masters base both their technique and ideology on opposing the poorly understood sport versions of Eastern arts and especially karate