muay boran -- new section needed !!!!! :)

[donnaTKD]

am waiting on an e-mail from them but it will be very soon

i got the books through the post today so am gunna go through it with scotty later and see what the differences are and stuff -- "it looks like a proper full scale war in a book"

also want to make sure that my Muay Thai is fully upto scratch before i go or else i'm just gunna get wasted properly and there's no fun being A&E for long periods of time

 

[drop bear]

am waiting on an e-mail from them but it will be very soon

i got the books through the post today so am gunna go through it with scotty later and see what the differences are and stuff -- "it looks like a proper full scale war in a book"

also want to make sure that my Muay Thai is fully upto scratch before i go or else i'm just gunna get wasted properly and there's no fun being A&E for long periods of time

Pretty sure there won't be death matches on your first day.

 

[donnaTKD]

^^^LoL^^^

there's a saying round here --- "prepare for the worst and hope for the best"

other point is that judging by what i've read is that i think it's a bit like fight school so you gotta have plenty of skills before you turn up --- just my take on things.

looks really interesting - i saw a promo video and it didn't look too much different to MT but there were throws and locks and holds and moves and combinations within those.

 

[drop bear]

^^^LoL^^^

there's a saying round here --- "prepare for the worst and hope for the best"

other point is that judging by what i've read is that i think it's a bit like fight school so you gotta have plenty of skills before you turn up --- just my take on things.

looks really interesting - i saw a promo video and it didn't look too much different to MT but there were throws and locks and holds and moves and combinations within those.

You have MMA ed though haven't you?

 

[Transk53]

am waiting on an e-mail from them but it will be very soon

i got the books through the post today so am gunna go through it with scotty later and see what the differences are and stuff -- "it looks like a proper full scale war in a book"

also want to make sure that my Muay Thai is fully upto scratch before i go or else i'm just gunna get wasted properly and there's no fun being A&E for long periods of time

My training buddy (funnily enough also called Scott) and myself Googled it. There is a school on the South coast, but a bit of a drive, but we hope to check it out. Anyway, good luck!

 

[donnaTKD]

done some MMA but my focus has always been on muay thai.

transk53 nice one on finding a school you'll have to let everyone know what you think of it as and when you go.

think that there are only a handfull of muay boran training centres and of those all are also muay thai centres cos apart from the 2 that i found up here there's one in hackney in london. don't know about any others.

 

[donnaTKD]

i got an e-mail response back

Tony said that there are only two moves that form the basis of both muay thai (competition) and muay boran (traditional) and they are Mae Mai and Luk Mai

so i think that i'd be right in saying that if you can get both of these nailed then you're pretty much there it's just a case of adding variations to those moves.........

just my thoughts on this..............

 

[MattofSilat]

i got an e-mail response back

Tony said that there are only two moves that form the basis of both muay thai (competition) and muay boran (traditional) and they are Mae Mai and Luk Mai

so i think that i'd be right in saying that if you can get both of these nailed then you're pretty much there it's just a case of adding variations to those moves.........

just my thoughts on this..............

Darn you guys who live on landmasses. I ain't got nothing when it comes to choice, I can't even travel without paying extortionate flight/boat costs. I'd get my *** handed to me so much in an art like Muay Thai/Boran, but it'd be nice to have the option.

Moving on from mumbling to myself, sounds like a great opportunity, so I wish you luck. I looked up Mae Mai and Luk Mai (They don't appear to be moves, I don't really know what you'd call them. Maybe Groups of Techniques?) and I found this video.

Just the lack of effort on pronunciation from the narrator made it worth the watch, even if only for the first 35 seconds.

 

[Transk53]

done some MMA but my focus has always been on muay thai.

transk53 nice one on finding a school you'll have to let everyone know what you think of it as and when you go.

think that there are only a handfull of muay boran training centres and of those all are also muay thai centres cos apart from the 2 that i found up here there's one in hackney in london. don't know about any others.

Yeah, but my right knee is borked. My shins are borked, but my elbows are fine! Maybe I am just getting too old for this ****, or maybe my long haul road to recovery will tell me that pride would just get me ****ed up. Best that I stick where I am until I can justify myself again, fitness is still way off. The pragmatist in me says no, but curiosity will win by tomorrow :argue:

 

[Transk53]

i got an e-mail response back

Tony said that there are only two moves that form the basis of both muay thai (competition) and muay boran (traditional) and they are Mae Mai and Luk Mai

so i think that i'd be right in saying that if you can get both of these nailed then you're pretty much there it's just a case of adding variations to those moves.........

just my thoughts on this..............

Word of caution, you are getting ahead of yourself Donna, step back and walk into the lesson first. You don't what variations you have, and what they have Just a chill pill, no disrespect intended!

 

[Transk53]

Darn you guys who live on landmasses. I ain't got nothing when it comes to choice, I can't even travel without paying extortionate flight/boat costs. I'd get my *** handed to me so much in an art like Muay Thai/Boran, but it'd be nice to have the option.

Moving on from mumbling to myself, sounds like a great opportunity, so I wish you luck. I looked up Mae Mai and Luk Mai (They don't appear to be moves, I don't really know what you'd call them. Maybe Groups of Techniques?) and I found this video.

Just the lack of effort on pronunciation from the narrator made it worth the watch, even if only for the first 35 seconds.

Maybe you perhaps can move abroad to further you're inclinations?

 

[donnaTKD]

no worries

not getting ahead of myself gunna go for a look see first - tony says that the basis for both MB and MT is the same as what i'm doing now so not expecting too much, just want to go and watch how they do things - s'all

that video was really good it's nice to see things done in slow mo with the names of the moves to accompany them too

at the moment i do both of those with some variations contained within each --- and that video for me just highlighted where i put those extra moves and stuff - really good watch

i don't worry about injuries too much anymore they happen you just gotta soak it up and get on with it both my legs have rodss, pins, plates and screws in them and i have doctors warning that if i break either of them again and the rod gets bent then i'll be training MT wearing prosthetics

 

[donnaTKD]

Darn you guys who live on landmasses. I ain't got nothing when it comes to choice, I can't even travel without paying extortionate flight/boat costs. I'd get my *** handed to me so much in an art like Muay Thai/Boran, but it'd be nice to have the option.

Moving on from mumbling to myself, sounds like a great opportunity, so I wish you luck. I looked up Mae Mai and Luk Mai (They don't appear to be moves, I don't really know what you'd call them. Maybe Groups of Techniques?) and I found this video.

Just the lack of effort on pronunciation from the narrator made it worth the watch, even if only for the first 35 seconds.

thinking that you're gunna have to move or train Muay Boran by yourself using a bag and a punch dummy

as for opportunities - i didn't even know that muay boran was being taught in the uk let alone anywhere near me. so try asking round - maybe take up the locals ancient ways of scrapping they're all ma's.

 

[Chris Parker]

It sounds interesting… however, I'd be highly dubious of comments such as the highlighted ones below:

found this place not too far from me

Awudt Muay Boran Sitsiam Camp, muaythai | Sitsiam Camp

awudt muay boran the ultimate martial art considered by many to be too dangerous to compete in hence the rise of muay thai.

there are also 3 versions of muay boran too and it's history is over 600years old and is battlefield tried and tested over many centuries too

the place above is about an hour from me so i might go and have a look to see just how much more brutal it is than muay thai

also think that there needs to be another section added to the forum list for muay boran and it's offshoots

on wiki it says that "muay" thai is actually cambodian -- bit of head scratching -- the history is that the cambodians invaded thailand and took over everything leaving the thai's to follow their kings and their ways of doing stuff.

so actually we shouldn't call it "muay thai" we should call it "muay cambodia" (doesn't soumd right to me ) or cambodian boxing............. but it should also be recognised that due to various wars between all the countries that parts of every countries "muay" (boxing) system and then got amalgamated over time..............

didn't realise that there was this much history and actual FACTUAL evidence that went with muay boran

oh one other point - i read through the descriptions of what's likely to be involved and have got scotty a full face helmet and abs pads --- he's gunna be needing them to go with the strike pads and chest guard that i already have

i don't want to keep putting scotty in hospital when it comes to doing muay boran combinations muay boran is essentially the effective killing of another person ASAP luuuuuurvely

forgot to add the movies Ong Bak, Ong Bak 2, Ong Bak 3 are all Muay Boran

^^^LoL^^^

from what i've seen it's far more brutal than Muay Thai will ever be allowed to be cos the art of Muay Thai that's being taught now is the competition stuff so it's all about points

Muay Boran is all about dispatching people as fast as possible -- the art of Mauy Boran is straight off the battlefield - total no rules, no holds barred and the only gentlemanly thing about it is the unwritten rule of no kicking between the legs

so anything goes luuuuuurrrrrvely just that cos scotty won't have a clue what's coming next - combinations are wide and varied depending upon the area where your style comes from so i thought it best to make sure that scotty was gunna be ok before i let loose

massive thankyou's to RDX for their continued help and support nice one guys

To be honest, none of that really seems to gel with much of reality to me… as I train in actual "battlefield" arts, ones that are genuinely designed to kill, or "dispatch people as fast as possible"… it's really nothing like what's seen in muay Boran or anything similar… and the link in the first post's claims that it "was used for battlefield combat (at a time when hand to hand combat was the norm)" is patently ludicrous… hand to hand combat was never the norm of battlefield combat. At all. I'd also vehemently question the idea that muay Boran (techniques/combinations) are designed with the "end result (being) the same: to kill, maim, or incapacitate your opponent"… I'd want to see any actual quantifiable evidence to that… none of the competitions I've seen footage of include anything lethal, incapacitating, or maiming at all. Nor in the demonstrations (scripted)… or the descriptions of the methods.

None of that takes away from the system itself, of course… overdone hyperbole is not particularly rare… but I wouldn't get too swept up in any claims of "Deadly! Brutal! Ultimate!"… or in the claims of the history, honestly.

With regards to a new section for the forum, I'm not sure that that's really warranted either… as evidenced by this thread, it's a rare thing to find, and rare for anyone to know much about it… possibly as a sub-section to the muay Thai section, but on it's own? I don't think so.

 

[donnaTKD]

if you were seeing a competition then you were not watching muay boran you were watching muay thai.

muay thai is the sport arm of muay boran and has a set rules and regs and things that are and are not allowed.

muay boran on the hand is the no rules, no holds barred original thai fighting system and depending on which part of thailand you come from or train depends on the style of muay boran you'll be taught.

muay thai is nothing like muay boran except in the basic set ups and forms but muay thai has rules to protect participants from severe harm.

fair enough about not having a new section given as you rightly state the rarerity of muay boran schools --- took me a while to find one anywhere near me.

 

[donnaTKD]

you're saying that the fighting over the centuries was all hand to hand combat --- that's wrong cos muay boran teaches the art of using weaponry such as the staff and the knife

 

[Chris Parker]

if you were seeing a competition then you were not watching muay boran you were watching muay thai.

No.

Staged, but the context's the same…

muay thai is the sport arm of muay boran and has a set rules and regs and things that are and are not allowed.

Hmm… no, not actually. According to their history, muay Boran is the older version of muay Thai… realistically, they're the same thing, just one is a more modern version. The history of muay Boran is littered with competitive anecdotes… hell, that's the entire history of the methods. In fact, the common term between the two systems is "muay"… which refers to "boxing, or pugilism"… and comes from a Sanskrit term meaning "to bind together", implying the engagement with another person, in this case, competitively.

muay boran on the hand is the no rules, no holds barred original thai fighting system and depending on which part of thailand you come from or train depends on the style of muay boran you'll be taught.

Muay Boran simply means "ancient boxing"… and, despite the rhetoric, it's not "no holds barred, no rules", or anything of the sort. There are a lot of implicit rules, there are rules embedded in the context, and more. As far as different versions based on the region, even that's not necessarily accepted… some teachers put forth the idea that they are teaching muay Boran, others (teaching other things) aren't.

muay thai is nothing like muay boran except in the basic set ups and forms but muay thai has rules to protect participants from severe harm.

"Nothing like"? Really? It has the same set-up, the same cultural trappings, the same rituals, very similar constructs, very similar techniques (with muay Boran having a range of, honestly, low-return, bizarre, and highly unlikely techniques in addition), the same dress, and more… Muay Boran has a range of additions, and small changes/alterations to muay Thai, but it really can't be understated that muay Boran and muay Thai are the same thing, just with different developmental paths.

fair enough about not having a new section given as you rightly state the rarerity of muay boran schools --- took me a while to find one anywhere near me.

Cool.

you're saying that the fighting over the centuries was all hand to hand combat

Uh… no. Quite the opposite. I'm saying that battlefield arts that are concerned with the killing of an enemy, particularly "as soon as possible", aren't hand-to-hand. Claiming that muay Boran is such an art is, well, disingenuous to say the least.

--- that's wrong cos muay boran teaches the art of using weaponry such as the staff and the knife

Actually, Krabi Karong is the weapon system… but to the point, neither staff weapons nor knives are really "battlefield" weapons either… a knife/short blade is a tertiary weapon at best, used for a finishing blow if at all… a staff really has little to no place there.

 

[MattofSilat]

God damn it. I really need to stop speaking. Yeah, Chris, while trying to prove my own point I realized that you were right. Fair play.

Japanese Jujitsu focused on the use of weapons at that time with a secondary emphasis on unarmed combat. I assumed it was the other way around because that's how it's always taught nowadays, I wonder why it changed? It's a shame, I'd love to learn a weapons art.

 

[Chris Parker]

Matt, I'm going to say this gently… you really don't know what you're talking about. Nothing in what you just said is accurate.

EDIT: Sorry, Matt, that was a bit curt… I'll expand and explain.

I think you're wrong in this aspect.

I'm not. I've been studying and training actual battlefield arts, primarily Japanese systems, but also looking at the methods and systems of many other cultures and time-periods, for the last 2 and a half to 3 decades.

Assuming that DonnaTKD is right when he says that it was used as a battlefield art,

Firstly, Donna (as evidenced by her name) is not a "he"… but, more to the point, it was not a battlefield art. If it was, everyone who used it would have died.

it would be used when weapons were not available.

Again, that goes against the way battlefields work. If you go out when weapons aren't available, you die.

There are very few people who would say that Japanese Jujitsu wasn't a battlefield art because it doesn't specialise in Weapons, as it was taught to Samurai for when Hand-to-Hand combat was necessary and weapons were not available.

Okay, you're completely misinformed about everything there. First, it's Jujutsu, not Jujitsu (pet hate of mine)… second, many jujutsu systems incorporated a range of weapons, they weren't necessarily unarmed systems (those that were more "purely" unarmed were not battlefield arts, they were developed in times of peace, and allowed a much greater sophistication to technique than anything developed during wartime). It was not "taught to samurai for when hand-to-hand combat was necessary and weapons were not available" for a range of reasons… one being that there is no such single art as "jujutsu"… there was nothing that was uniformly "taught to samurai" at all, for any reason… another being that each individual system of jujutsu had it's own context and reasons for development, which mighty be similar to your hypothetical construct, but far more likely removed in a wide range of ways.

It's very possible that Muay Boran was used in the same way.

As the jujutsu construct you gave was historically inaccurate, no. The only way such things were used in that way would result in the death of the fool trying them.

In both cases, the aim would still be to dispatch of the enemy as quickly as possible, even if weapons were not available.

No, not necessarily either. Many jujutsu forms don't have that aim… instead, an aim might be to protect someone else… or to capture someone… or anything else. Additionally, the methodology of muay Boran deny that very claim, when you look at it.

 

[donnaTKD]

it's always nice to be "put down" by someone who knows a heck of a lot more about a topic than what's contained within what it is that i'm reading

thankyou for your statements

don't if there's much truth behind this but i keep reading muay thai isn't actually thai and that it was imposed on them by some king of cambodian descent and that muay thai/boran was only taught to those closest to the royalty of that time and then as time went on the thai's then practiced this art form.

the regional differences i was talking about place higher priority on a single technique be it, feet, elbows, knees or hands - muay thai as it is today does not allow use of the head. as i understand it muay boran in competition was within "tribes" in times of peace.

please feel free to shoot this down and enlighten me at the same time i only know about the histtory of it from what i've read