More People Should Follow Bruce Lee's Instructions

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PhotonGuy

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he wasn't just not the first to say it, he likely didn't say it at all. Just as an fyi to avoid misattribution in the future.
The quote, which in full goes like this
He who knows not, and knows not he knows not, is a fool; shun him.
He who knows not, and knows he knows not, is simple; teach him.
He who knows, and knows not he knows, is asleep; awaken him.
He who knows, and knows he knows, is wise; follow him.
has been attributed to Bruce Lee but if he never did say it then I stand corrected in saying that he did. But that's not the main point. The main point is that people on this forum, and people in the world in general, should teach those who are simple.
 
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PhotonGuy

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I haven't really seen teachers (who have the time) refuse to teach someone who wants to learn ... and is of good character.
Im not talking about teachers specifically, Im talking about people in general who won't teach other people, and there's examples of that on this forum.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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The quote, which in full goes like this

He who knows not, and knows not he knows not, is a fool; shun him.
He who knows not, and knows he knows not, is simple; teach him.
He who knows, and knows not he knows, is asleep; awaken him.
He who knows, and knows he knows, is wise; follow him.
I don't actually agree with this quote fully. Specifically "He who knows not, and knows not he knows not, is a fool; shun him." should be enlighten him, rather than shun him.

Regarding the rest-most people who have experience do teach those who are willing to learn. When someone works with another, and one person knows what they're doing but the other does not, I can't think of any instances where they just flat out refuse to show their partner.
Teaching doesn't have to mean opening a dojo, or going out of your way to become an instructor.
 

mograph

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Im not talking about teachers specifically, Im talking about people in general who won't teach other people, and there's examples of that on this forum.
I'm afraid we might need more context, since we all have limited resources, and aren't able to teach everyone what we know. There are plenty of reasons to not teach certain people. So, again ... do you have an anecdote, or specific incident?

... and as I implied, sometimes it's a waste of time to try to teach someone who says they want to learn, but they aren't willing to work hard or make the paradigm shift necessary to learn. For example, I'm not willing to teach people who are always looking for tricks or hacks, and are not willing to put in the hard work, and who won't be satisfied with incremental gains.
 

mograph

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I don't actually agree with this quote fully. Specifically "He who knows not, and knows not he knows not, is a fool; shun him." should be enlighten him, rather than shun him.
I think that part of the quote refers to the willfully ignorant: those who believe they do know, and will not be convinced otherwise, no matter how hard you try. They resist enlightenment.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I think that part of the quote refers to the willfully ignorant: those who believe they do know, and will not be convinced otherwise, no matter how hard you try. They resist enlightenment.
Yes. They're the ones that you should enlighten, rather than just teaching. With martial arts, it's not always a pleasant enlightenment.

Edit: Assuming you have the goal to teach at all, and not just when the opportunities on you. As a teacher, who has the time/ability (in a perfect world as these quotes generally assume), then you should be enlightening, not shunning. If you don't have that time, it makes sense to focus your energy on teaching those willing to learn.
 

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Im not talking about teachers specifically, Im talking about people in general who won't teach other people, and there's examples of that on this forum.

I don't know what you're referring to here... but, if you're a teacher, you really don't have to teach anyone you don't want to (unless they're running up against anti-discrimination laws). And that has nothing to do with whether the potential student can learn.

Works a little differently if you're an employer and you have an employee who is not self-aware.

The quote, which in full goes like this

has been attributed to Bruce Lee but if he never did say it then I stand corrected in saying that he did. But that's not the main point. The main point is that people on this forum, and people in the world in general, should teach those who are simple.

What do you mean by teaching "those who are simple?" Do you mean that folks should be teaching and offering opportunities to people who have developmental disabilities, or did you mean something else?
 
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PhotonGuy

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I'm afraid we might need more context, since we all have limited resources, and aren't able to teach everyone what we know.
I could dig up some examples but for now I will just mention that sometimes when I ask somebody to explain something they will sometimes say to figure it out myself or that they're not my teacher, that has happened on this forum among other places.
 
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PhotonGuy

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I don't actually agree with this quote fully. Specifically "He who knows not, and knows not he knows not, is a fool; shun him." should be enlighten him, rather than shun him.
The problem is that people who fall under the category of "he who knows not and nor not that he knows not" generally can't be taught because they already know it all, as far as they're concerned. That's what it means to know not that you know not, you think you know it all so you won't be receptive to any teaching or enlightenment. It's been discussed before on this thread, about arrogant know-it-alls, it's best to shun them instead of trying to teach them when they're going to reject your teachings anyway. No need to waste your time with them.
 
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PhotonGuy

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What do you mean by teaching "those who are simple?" Do you mean that folks should be teaching and offering opportunities to people who have developmental disabilities, or did you mean something else?
See post #28
 

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The problem is that people who fall under the category of "he who knows not and nor not that he knows not" generally can't be taught because they already know it all, as far as they're concerned. That's what it means to know not that you know not, you think you know it all so you won't be receptive to any teaching or enlightenment. It's been discussed before on this thread, about arrogant know-it-alls, it's best to shun them instead of trying to teach them when they're going to reject your teachings anyway. No need to waste your time with them.
That's what enlightening them is for. You are enlightening them to the fact that they don't know as much as they think. At that point, you can teach them. It happens quite often.

As an example I've seen: Someone goes into a boxing gym, really in shape dude, convinced he's already ready to fight. Spars someone 5 inches shorter, visibly weaker, and gets destroyed. He doesn't show up for a few weeks. When he comes back, his attitude changes, and he's ready to learn.
 

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Someone goes into a boxing gym, really in shape dude, convinced he's already ready to fight. Spars someone 5 inches shorter, visibly weaker, and gets destroyed. He doesn't show up for a few weeks. When he comes back, his attitude changes, and he's ready to learn.
It happens to me too.

The 1st ski trip I did was the Copper Mountain, Colorado. Without any ski experience, I got on the black diamonds ski trail "widow maker". When I got back down, I signed in a beginner ski lesson right away.

I assumed my MA experience could be transferred into ski experience. I was wrong.
 
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PhotonGuy

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That's what enlightening them is for. You are enlightening them to the fact that they don't know as much as they think. At that point, you can teach them. It happens quite often.
But they're going to have to want to be enlightened for that to work and generally speaking, know it alls don't want to be enlightened because they have already reached a maximum level of enlightenment, at least they think they have. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
As an example I've seen: Someone goes into a boxing gym, really in shape dude, convinced he's already ready to fight. Spars someone 5 inches shorter, visibly weaker, and gets destroyed. He doesn't show up for a few weeks. When he comes back, his attitude changes, and he's ready to learn.
Well the fact that he showed up at the gym in the first place means he at least wanted to learn something. Somebody who thinks they know everything about boxing and that they're the best boxer in the world wouldn't even go to the gym in the first place because they think they know it all and have nothing to learn there.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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But they're going to have to want to be enlightened for that to work and generally speaking, know it alls don't want to be enlightened because they have already reached a maximum level of enlightenment
Simple. As I suggested before, the enlightenment is letting them know that they don't know it all. Once they figure that out, you can teach them. They don't have to want to be enlightened, they have to be willing to learn-which is what you are enlightening them of.
Well the fact that he showed up at the gym in the first place means he at least wanted to learn something. Somebody who thinks they know everything about boxing and that they're the best boxer in the world wouldn't even go to the gym in the first place because they think they know it all and have nothing to learn there.
No, they absolutely would. They'd go to prove how awesome they are, or because they expect, as stated in the post you quoted, that they expect to be able to immediately enter the ring and win.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Simple. As I suggested before, the enlightenment is letting them know that they don't know it all. Once they figure that out, you can teach them. They don't have to want to be enlightened, they have to be willing to learn-which is what you are enlightening them of.
Alright, but they still have to want to learn, even if you do manage to convince them that they don't know it all. After that they have to want to learn if you're going to teach them.
No, they absolutely would. They'd go to prove how awesome they are, or because they expect, as stated in the post you quoted, that they expect to be able to immediately enter the ring and win.
After they lose they might or might not come back.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Alright, but they still have to want to learn, even if you do manage to convince them that they don't know it all. After that they have to want to learn if you're going to teach them.
Yes. Which is the idea here-you convince them they don't know it all, now they are in that second category.
After they lose they might or might not come back.

If they don't come back, that's on them. You're not shunning them, they're taking away the opportunity themselves. And sometimes, people go through that sort of thing multiple times before they're willing to learn. With martial arts, it's not all that important-with other stuff it can be.
 

mograph

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I think it's a matter of degree. Some people, given enough of a nudge, will change their paradigm, but others have so much invested in their self-image that they will never admit they don't know everything ... at least in that context.

I guess the point here is to give it a shot, and if they don't come around, to not lose any sleep over it.
 

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I think it's a matter of degree. Some people, given enough of a nudge, will change their paradigm, but others have so much invested in their self-image that they will never admit they don't know everything ... at least in that context.

I guess the point here is to give it a shot, and if they don't come around, to not lose any sleep over it.
Its particularly hard for people when they are not good at something they think is an area of strength.
 

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