Modern Arnis...a dead art?

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think this is the passage that Bob is referring to all the way at the bottom.

Modern Arnis is a dead system in my opinion since
Professor Presas' passing.

 

[Carol]

I think this is the passage that Bob is referring to all the way at the bottom.

Modern Arnis is a dead system in my opinion since
Professor Presas' passing.

Ayup. That be it.

 

[Cebu West]

posted by Palusut

.

Sheesh, sorry that I asked.

I know what you mean. Lots of nasty people there filled with hate and jealousy. They're not Modern Arnis anymore and I think the MA community is much better off without them.

Sal

 

[arnisador]

Ok, I'm lost but the link above is about Mr Hartman's promotion.

All posts there are about Mr. Hartman in one way or another. It's sad.

 

[Brian Johns]

Wow, we now know the context in which that "Modern Arnis is dead" statement was written. Jiminy crickets.

Brian Johns

 

[Hand Sword]

For me....The parent has died. However, the offspring exists. It is a style now, it has grown to young adulthood. People will always be able to study modern arnis, no matter what amount of content it has. Those who learned it, can't all of the sudden forget all of their experiences with it and him. The only way the system will die is if all of the practitioners of it give up training in it, and take up another style. Never again can any thought be given to Mr. Presas and his style, and all references of it and him would have to disappear. Bottom line, Not going to happen! So the art where it is might not evolve, and it stays stuck as a young adult, or teenager. Sounds good to me!-LOL! I do think, as a person does, Mr. Presas' progeny will grow and find it's own way in the M.A. world.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, I'm lost but the link above is about Mr Hartman's promotion.

It was made in passing in a discussion of Tim's promotions which is a main focal point there in most conversations.


It inspired me to open the topic here though. Rest of my last post here was basically, "How can it be dead, when Remy spread it so far and wide?"

 

[Guro Harold]

It was made in passing in a discussion of Tim's promotions which is a main focal point there in most conversations.


It inspired me to open the topic here though. Rest of my last post here was basically, "How can it be dead, when Remy spread it so far and wide?"

Let's be realisitic for a moment. There is no Modern Arnis player who is totally like Professor Remy A. Presas in skill, style, and charisma. If you place any Modern Arnis player against the Professor as a standard, they will come up short.

But the path of a martial artist is not about becoming exact replica of the grandmaster, it's ultimately about expressing yourself to the ultimate degree.

Tim Hartman, Dan Anderson, and Dieter are actually doing a great job of not trying to be "Remy clones" but are making their unique mark.

I am not a member of WMAA, nor am I associated with Mr Hartman in any way but just recalling history:

- He was personally promoted by GM Remy A. Presas
- He was internally promoted by his own organization (which means he has one)
- He was promoted by GM Ernesto Presas

It can be easy to question motives of the parties involved in the promotions, which could be a sign of powerless. Reason being, when you don't have the power to affect change, the only avenue that you have left is to grip and complain, which changes nothing.

So ok, sometime you have to get to a point of moving on because it is an individual choice to involve oneself with Tim Hartman, WMAA, Modern Arnis, and now I guess, GM Ernesto Presas.

The most important issue is that in what way are you personally continuing the legacy of GM Remy A. Presas and his beloved Modern Arnis. It can be in the big ways, like hosting/teaching seminars, producing videos, or bringing over instructors from the Philippines or in small ways like learning and teaching Modern Arnis and continuing to recognize GM Remy A. Presas.

Therefore the question isn't whether or not Modern Arnis is a dead art, but whether or not we are wasting our time beating a dead horse?

Best regards,

Guro Harold Evans

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hey Rich,

I certainly know how it's affected me. My Modern Arnis looks a bit different than what RP originally taught me. My balintawak training, as little of it I have done, has affected me greatly. My karate background was eclectic enough to keep me from becoming stylized in the first place so that helped my FMA learning. MA 80 is becoming more and more different than what Prof. Remy taught me in the beginning and evolving into "what Dan does."

Anyway, pure Modern Arnis? To paraphrase Ed Parker, "When pure stick meets pure face, then you have pure Modern Arnis." Over and out.

Yours,
Dan

Dan,

I understand how it has effected me today. I was just curious about those who only trained in FMA's or in particular Modern Arnis from an instructor who only learned Modern Arnis. But that would be me and a few others. Not a lot of data points to worry about or reference.

Thank you

 

[Dan Anderson]

Here is another way to look at it: Modern Arnis is as dead as Aikido.

Aikido was founded by Morihei Ueshiba. O-sensei passed away. There are two lineages, so to speak. There is a vertical (familial) lineage.
Morihei Ueshiba to
Kisshomaru Ueshiba to
Moriteru Ueshiba

There is also a horizontal lineage (to name a few):
Gozo Shioda
Koichi Tohei
Kenji Tomiki

Modern Arnis has the vertical lineage:
Remy Presas to
Remy Presas Jr.

The horizontal lineage would roughly be this:
Cristino Vasquez (9th dan under Remy) et al, Dan (MA 80), Tim (WMAA), Randi & Co. (IMAF, Inc.), Jeff (other IMAF), IMAFP group, Dieter (DAV), Shishir Inocalla, Kelly (WMAC), everyone else out there.

This has happened with Shotokan karate, Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate, Aikido, baguazhang, taijiquan, and darn near every other martial art out there. It is the natural order of things.

In the overall scheme of things Tim's promotion is a drop of water in the ocean of martial arts activity.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - I'm sure I'lll piss off whoever I left off the list but I'm only half way through my morning coffee so my apologies. DA

 

[Rich Parsons]

http://lists.topica.com/lists/escrima_arnis/read/message.html?mid=1721013644&sort=d&start=6910

I originally posted the following:

To me it could be discussed in a philosophical point of view, but in most cases to me it seems the people who make this comment does not have the rank or skill set to be a leader of their own, so they cannot lead and continue, so they try to bring everyone else down. It is the mind set of "If I cannot win then no one can win." The issues with this mind set are great. I mean like it is a competition or it is all about them. When it should be about the memory and honor of the late GM Remy Presas and continuing to teach his system. (* I know people will add or drop. I understand this. It is nature. I just would like to see people state what they know they have dropped or added. *)

Peace

I had no idea where the post came from. I am not a member at the other site nor do I wish to be.

I have a difference of opinions with them and it not based around their favorite subject it based around how they treated me in person.

So I am not going to continue with this anymore, for I see nothing productive I can add.

Be at peace.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Rich, you've that right. I didn't start this to bring their issues over here, but thought it a fair comment worth discussion. I've heard it from others too.



I think Dan put it well. Remy's impact on the art will lessen as time goes by, but the art itself will continue on. There are easily dozens of excellent players out there who are taking what Remy gave them, making it their own, and taking it further. One thing I heard about Remy was that he kept hoping for the day when his students "got it" to the point where he saw them as his heirs to the art. I think he'd be pleased with where things are going.

 

[Carol]

Rich, you've that right. I didn't start this to bring their issues over here, but thought it a fair comment worth discussion. I've heard it from others too.



I think Dan put it well. Remy's impact on the art will lessen as time goes by, but the art itself will continue on. There are easily dozens of excellent players out there who are taking what Remy gave them, making it their own, and taking it further. One thing I heard about Remy was that he kept hoping for the day when his students "got it" to the point where he saw them as his heirs to the art. I think he'd be pleased with where things are going.

I've never met the Professor, only people that have trained with them. It seems to me that Professor Presas had a profound impact on many people's lives. Filipino people have a wonderful sense of family that isn't always found in US culture. I think many people felt a tremendous sense of loss when he passed away....perhaps some felt it so much so that they lost their enthusiasm to follow the art further, I don't know.

 

[John Zagari]

I think its interesting that most Modern Arnis guys that trained with GM Remy have not moved accross to IPMAF and GM Ernesto. Woudl have felt it would have been a natural progression.

It was actually fantastic to see GM Tim at this years IPMAF camp and I hope in future more and more of GM Remy's students get involved with GM Ernesto's ongoing work and progression of Modern Arnis/ Kombatan Arnis.

 

[arnisador]

I think its interesting that most Modern Arnis guys that trained with GM Remy have not moved accross to IPMAF and GM Ernesto. Woudl have felt it would have been a natural progression.

Part of it is loyalty to one's instructor and familiarity with one's art (and part of it is politics ). But it's not so easy finding Kombatan instruction here...Remy Presas' instructors are easy to find in the U.S., but Ernesto Presas' instructors are more scarce. Still, I'm a student of Tim Hartman and he invites Kombatan instructors to teach at the WMAA camps. Presas Arnis is Presas Arnis to a certain extent, though there are differences too!

 

[John Zagari]

Yeah its interesting .. Can't help but feel that it would be very exciting if all the presas arnis practitioners world wide joined under the one umbrella with the remaining two brothers as the figure heads.

 

[arnisador]

We don't know so much about Roberto Presas here...I know he has his own version of the FMA, Hinigaran Arnis de Mano. I'd like to know more about what he does!

 

[Seahawk Guy]

I'd heard the comment a few times before then though, over the last few years. The basic premise of course being that without Remy at the helm, the ship's done for.

Now, there are arts that are 'dead'. There are even those who will study a dead variant of Modern Arnis...always has been, always will be.

Remy kept evolving his art, and as he moved ahead, he often left some people behind. They kept working where he had been, but failed to keep up with him. Some stayed there. Those are the ones studying the 'dead' arnis.

Others, went in their own direction, made it 'theirs', and grew a branch off the main tree.

In the mean time, Remy kept adding new rings to the tree, dropping seeds here and there like a Filipino Johnny Appleseed, and even though the Master Gardener is gone, the orchard he planted continues to grow, and bear fruit. Like any fruit, it will vary from tree to tree, some a little sour, some a little sweet, but at it's core, always Presas Arnis.

So, I don't see it dead, just continuing on where Remy left off.

Great post. I couldn't agree more. Modern Arnis will continue to thrive and grow as long as there are people out there that love to teach and learn this wonderful style. The part in your post where you mentioned how others "went in their own direction, and made it theirs" I think is the spirit of how Remy would teach Modern Arnis. Modern Arnis a dead art? Hardly!

 

[The Game]

Anyone who thinks the art is dead isn't running on all wheels. There are over 200 schools in the US alone teaching it.

 

[arnisador]

Anyone who thinks the art is dead isn't running on all wheels. There are over 200 schools in the US alone teaching it.

Many of them are evolving it in one way or another. That's almost surely for the best--I've come to believe that more and more every year since 2001--but unlike some styles, I wonder if it'll be recognizable in a hundred years.

Of course, most styles that are still recognizable after that time are arts like iaido that are preserving some very old system rather than keeping it current.