Modern Arnis...a dead art?

[Bob Hubbard]

On another forum, the comment was made by a poster that he considered Modern Arnis a dead FMA art as of Remy's passing in 2001.

My opinion is that it is not dead, but very much alive as it continues on today, under the guidance of numerous individuals who were taught the art by Remy, who have carried on the work he began, and continued to research and extend and preserve it.

But, what are your thoughts?

Modern Arnis. A live art, or a dead memory?

 

[Carol]

Yeah its as dead as Kenpo.

Oh...wait...

 

[MJS]

I would strongly have to disagree with whoever made that comment! The art is in fact very much alive and there are many people, both here in the states and in the PI, that are keeping the art and the memory of The Prof. very much alive! Perhaps that person feels that its dead because they themselves are letting it die, or maybe their own training has come to a stand still. Ed Parker passed on and I wouldn't say that the art of Kenpo has died.

Mike

 

[Guro Harold]

Does anyone know have the link to the original post?

Thanks,

-Palusut

 

[stickarts]

It's not dead here in Middletown, CT!

The passing of the Professor marked the end of an era, however many many students are still working hard and spreading the art around the globe. Its actually amazing how many students that I trained with or heard of nearly 20 years ago that are still practicing and teaching modern arnis today. We are a stubborn bunch!

 

[Dan Anderson]

In the words of Frank Zappa, "Jazz is not dead. It just smells funny."

Sorry folks, that's the first thing that came to mind.

Modern Arnis dead since the passing of Prof. Remy? Au contraire. Modern Arnis is flourishing. The only thing is that there is no organization or lead figurehead for the art. Before his passing there was no disputing who was the head and source of Modern Arnis - Remy Presas. Now we have many of us who are leading our own groups. We all have a different flavor of what we have been taught.

I liken Modern Arnis to Baguazhang historically. The founder of baguazhang, Donghaichuan, taught established martial artists. He adapted his teaching to the capabilities of the student and according to his background. Cheng Ting Hua was a suiai jiao wrestler berfore training with Dong. His bagua is laced with close quarters combat and many throws. Yin Fu was a northern Lohan Shaolin expert. His bagua is quick and longer ranged. They learned the same set of principles from the same teacher. Each school trains the same principles yet has its own flavor.

The students who have gone on with Modern Arnis have varying backgrounds. Their Modern Arnis is influenced by what they previously trained in and what they have trained in since then. That is the natural order of things.

Since going to the Philippines to the 1st Remy Presas Memorial Training Camp last year, I have seen for myself that there is no "pure Remy Presas Modern Arnis" on the face of the planet. None. Modern Arnis was always an evolving art when Remy Presas was alive and will continue to evolve under his surviving students.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Tames D]

I'm not a Modern Arnis Stylist but it seems to me to be alive an well.

 

[Tarot]

Considering that's the art I study under two instructors, one of them a Datu named by Remy. Ah, I'm gonna go with no, it's not dead.

 

[brianhunter]

It is interesting to see the same attitude taken with Remy Presas' passing that was taken with Ed Parker's passing.

The thing that people never seem to grasp is it is not specifically how the founder of the art performs or changes....it is ultimately how YOU perform the art or change.

 

[Rich Parsons]

In the words of Frank Zappa, "Jazz is not dead. It just smells funny."

Sorry folks, that's the first thing that came to mind.

Modern Arnis dead since the passing of Prof. Remy? Au contraire. Modern Arnis is flourishing. The only thing is that there is no organization or lead figurehead for the art. Before his passing there was no disputing who was the head and source of Modern Arnis - Remy Presas. Now we have many of us who are leading our own groups. We all have a different flavor of what we have been taught.

I liken Modern Arnis to Baguazhang historically. The founder of baguazhang, Donghaichuan, taught established martial artists. He adapted his teaching to the capabilities of the student and according to his background. Cheng Ting Hua was a suiai jiao wrestler berfore training with Dong. His bagua is laced with close quarters combat and many throws. Yin Fu was a northern Lohan Shaolin expert. His bagua is quick and longer ranged. They learned the same set of principles from the same teacher. Each school trains the same principles yet has its own flavor.

The students who have gone on with Modern Arnis have varying backgrounds. Their Modern Arnis is influenced by what they previously trained in and what they have trained in since then. That is the natural order of things.

Since going to the Philippines to the 1st Remy Presas Memorial Training Camp last year, I have seen for myself that there is no "pure Remy Presas Modern Arnis" on the face of the planet. None. Modern Arnis was always an evolving art when Remy Presas was alive and will continue to evolve under his surviving students.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan,

So before my Balintawak training I had only Modern Arnis Training. As my Local instructor and senior also had only Modern Arnis training when I started.

How would that effect us?

I know that the Balintawak has effected me, but I still try to be able to say this is Balintawak and this is Modern Arnis. (* Sometimes it is the same for both though *).



Everyone,

As to Modern Arnis being Dead. It is in once sense. The Founder is no longer with us and he can no longer lead or guide us. Yet, it is still alive in the students who are teaching and have thier own organizations.

To me it could be discussed in a philosophical point of view, but in most cases to me it seems the people who make this comment does not have the rank or skill set to be a leader of their own, so they cannot lead and continue, so they try to bring everyone else down. It is the mind set of "If I cannot win then no one can win." The issues with this mind set are great. I mean like it is a competition or it is all about them. When it should be about the memory and honor of the late GM Remy Presas and continuing to teach his system. (* I know people will add or drop. I understand this. It is nature. I just would like to see people state what they know they have dropped or added. *)

Peace

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, I like being a argumentative little ****, so I'll say yes

There are two ways in which a art can be dead.

1) No one practices it anymore.

2) It stops evolving.

Now #1 is obviously not true.

#2 however, and granted I really don't know a lot about Modern Arnis, is true for a lot of styles. Perhaps not for everyone, but for many of the practitioners of it.

For a lot of people I imagine Modern Arnis is about "What did Remy do/teach?", not, "How do I get better at whacking people with a stick?"

Once it becomes a state of holding onto and perserving the teachings of one person, who is no longer teaching, an art is in a sense dead. Now for some practitioners I imagine this is not the case, and they do evolve. But then the question becomes "How much can it evolve before it is no longer Modern Arnis?"

(* I know people will add or drop. I understand this. It is nature. I just would like to see people state what they know they have dropped or added. *)

To what end? 5 generations of students later should each document what he, and everyone up the chain has changed? Not to mention how messy the chain will get if each studies under 2-3 different instructors along the way...

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, I like being a argumentative little ****, so I'll say yes

There are two ways in which a art can be dead.

1) No one practices it anymore.

2) It stops evolving.

Now #1 is obviously not true.

#2 however, and granted I really don't know a lot about Modern Arnis, is true for a lot of styles. Perhaps not for everyone, but for many of the practitioners of it.

For a lot of people I imagine Modern Arnis is about "What did Remy do/teach?", not, "How do I get better at whacking people with a stick?"

Once it becomes a state of holding onto and perserving the teachings of one person, who is no longer teaching, an art is in a sense dead. Now for some practitioners I imagine this is not the case, and they do evolve. But then the question becomes "How much can it evolve before it is no longer Modern Arnis?"


To what end? 5 generations of students later should each document what he, and everyone up the chain has changed? Not to mention how messy the chain will get if each studies under 2-3 different instructors along the way...

Well I would not expect too many changes. A drop of this drill a preference to this technique or what have you. Or someone who adds in a new Blade drill and the explanation. And yes I think it should be documented, to give proper respect to the those who have made the innovations, versus the arguments that occur about no this si the exact way the Founder taught the system because it is the way my instructor taught me. When it could be their instructor changed somethings just to improve a teaching aspect or to avoid confusion or to cover a new threat of type of weapon or a situation that was not as imporatant before but it is more important now.

Now I understand this is my feelings on this and my comments. Do I actually expect everyone to do this? Nope. Just speaking / typing an opinion here.

 

[Brian Johns]

I would agree with most of the posters here in that Modern Arnis is most definitely not dead; it's still alive in those who learned from Professor and are learning from the higher ranking students and from each other. It's still alive in the sense that there are a number of groups propagating this art and hosting seminars and camps. There are those who are studying the roots of Modern Arnis (eg Balintawak and other arts) in order to enhance their understanding of this art. Others are cross training with other Modern Arnis folks to learn other subtleties of the art. There are different paths and very often it comes down to the individual preferences. I've seen folks who are into different aspects of Modern Arnis and others are just not. Nothing wrong with that. But one thing for sure, Modern Arnis is definitely not dead.

Take care,
Brian Johns

PS. I echo Palusut's question regarding the original post making this statement. I'd like to see that post and the context in which it was written.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

http://lists.topica.com/lists/escrima_arnis/read/message.html?mid=1721013644&sort=d&start=6910

 

[arnisador]

http://lists.topica.com/lists/escrima_arnis/read/message.html?mid=1721013644&sort=d&start=6910

Sheesh.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dan,

So before my Balintawak training I had only Modern Arnis Training. As my Local instructor and senior also had only Modern Arnis training when I started.

How would that effect us?

I know that the Balintawak has effected me, but I still try to be able to say this is Balintawak and this is Modern Arnis. (* Sometimes it is the same for both though *).
Peace

Hey Rich,

I certainly know how it's affected me. My Modern Arnis looks a bit different than what RP originally taught me. My balintawak training, as little of it I have done, has affected me greatly. My karate background was eclectic enough to keep me from becoming stylized in the first place so that helped my FMA learning. MA 80 is becoming more and more different than what Prof. Remy taught me in the beginning and evolving into "what Dan does."

Anyway, pure Modern Arnis? To paraphrase Ed Parker, "When pure stick meets pure face, then you have pure Modern Arnis." Over and out.

Yours,
Dan

 

[Dan Anderson]

I went over and read the last couple of days worth and as I said to Tim just today, "Bummer of a birthmark, Ralph." (reference to the Far Side cartoon)

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Guro Harold]

http://lists.topica.com/lists/escrima_arnis/read/message.html?mid=1721013644&sort=d&start=6910

Sheesh, sorry that I asked.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'd heard the comment a few times before then though, over the last few years. The basic premise of course being that without Remy at the helm, the ship's done for.

Now, there are arts that are 'dead'. There are even those who will study a dead variant of Modern Arnis...always has been, always will be.

Remy kept evolving his art, and as he moved ahead, he often left some people behind. They kept working where he had been, but failed to keep up with him. Some stayed there. Those are the ones studying the 'dead' arnis.

Others, went in their own direction, made it 'theirs', and grew a branch off the main tree.

In the mean time, Remy kept adding new rings to the tree, dropping seeds here and there like a Filipino Johnny Appleseed, and even though the Master Gardener is gone, the orchard he planted continues to grow, and bear fruit. Like any fruit, it will vary from tree to tree, some a little sour, some a little sweet, but at it's core, always Presas Arnis.

So, I don't see it dead, just continuing on where Remy left off.

 

[Guro Harold]

I'd heard the comment a few times before then though, over the last few years. The basic premise of course being that without Remy at the helm, the ship's done for.

Now, there are arts that are 'dead'. There are even those who will study a dead variant of Modern Arnis...always has been, always will be.

Remy kept evolving his art, and as he moved ahead, he often left some people behind. They kept working where he had been, but failed to keep up with him. Some stayed there. Those are the ones studying the 'dead' arnis.

Others, went in their own direction, made it 'theirs', and grew a branch off the main tree.

In the mean time, Remy kept adding new rings to the tree, dropping seeds here and there like a Filipino Johnny Appleseed, and even though the Master Gardener is gone, the orchard he planted continues to grow, and bear fruit. Like any fruit, it will vary from tree to tree, some a little sour, some a little sweet, but at it's core, always Presas Arnis.

So, I don't see it dead, just continuing on where Remy left off.

Ok, I'm lost but the link above is about Mr Hartman's promotion.