MMA Rules and Groundfighting

[KumaSan]

Originally posted by Jay Bell

UFC and NHB also have rules. Rules which were put into place to allow groundfighters to shine and glorify themselves and their limited arts.

I've heard people say this before, but I'm not sure which rules exactly favor groundfighters. I am naturally biased that way, as I wrestled most of my pre-adult life, and I continue to do some grappling these days, as my schedule allows, so of course I only think it's fair

Honestly I would appreciate a differing viewpoint on why the rules seem to favor going to the ground. I know that in the early days it seemed this way, primarily because those fighters either specialized in groundfighting or knew nothing about it, making it easier for the specialist to take them down.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hear some other view on this. Thanks.

 

[KumaSan]

Mods, go ahead and get rid of the above post. That really should go into a different thread.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Acctually, I just split it off. Was an interesting point, and if ya don't mind, I'd like to leave it out there for some exploration.

I'm curious on the answers myself.

:asian:

(for anyone wondering where it came from, I pulled it outta
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=1540)

 

[KumaSan]

Originally posted by Jay Bell

UFC and NHB also have rules. Rules which were put into place to allow groundfighters to shine and glorify themselves and their limited arts.

I've heard people say this before, but I'm not sure which rules exactly favor groundfighters. I am naturally biased that way, as I wrestled most of my pre-adult life, and I continue to do some grappling these days, as my schedule allows, so of course I only think it's fair

Honestly I would appreciate a differing viewpoint on why the rules seem to favor going to the ground. I know that in the early days it seemed this way, primarily because those fighters either specialized in groundfighting or knew nothing about it, making it easier for the specialist to take them down.

I'm not looking to hear how you feel about MMA, or if you think it's good for the arts (that's why we have this thread). I just want to know if you feel the rules of MMA are tilted to make grapplers look good. Give me some good reasons why, or why not. Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing some other views on this. Thanks.

 

[KumaSan]

Thanks, now if you don't mind, could you delete the thread I just made for it in General? Thanks, you read my mind! :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I combined the 2 threads. was a hair easier.

 

[KumaSan]

Arigatoo Gozaimasu, Admin-san!

 

[Jay Bell]

I'll be brief in this...but UFC was co-founded by the Gracie family. Anyone ever remember the "Gracie Challenge"?

The few rules that did exist in the beginning were concepts of how to prevent groundfighters from winning. Attacking the eyes, bone breaking, etc.

 

[Klondike93]

In the begining it did favor the grappler cause there was no time limit, and the grappler could lay there all day.

When they put in a time limit and the rule if there's no action on the ground they stand you up, it swung to the stand up guys.





:asian:

 

[Icepick]

Once they started having rounds and more decisions, the rules started to favor strikers. Few judges seem to award points for submission attempts, so unless a grappler gets the tap, the guy who throws more leather will get the nod. The cage favors grapplers though, because there are no restarts, and it's easy to cut the ring down.

 

[Kyle]

"Attacking the eyes,"

This was a safety thing. Whether a striker or grappler, I don't anybody would willingly enter a content where the other guy is attempting to seriously maim you with a permanent disabling injury.

And if you really think that eye gouges are the magic pixie dust that would allow the striker to easily beat the grappler, you are mistaken. It's a technique, like any other, that needs to be trained to be effective.

" bone breaking, etc."

:rofl: It's called a joint lock, and last I checked, that's what a grappler likes to do.

- Kyle

 

[Jay Bell]

This was a safety thing. Whether a striker or grappler, I don't anybody would willingly enter a content where the other guy is attempting to seriously maim you with a permanent disabling injury.

Then maybe grapplers should settle down on boasting on how effective in real combat their limited methods are and stick to their rules.

There are more ways to attack eyes then 'eye gouges'....and many ways to break bones beyond jointlocks. Notice I didn't say "break joints"?

I spent time studying BJJ and I'm fully aware of limitations that it contains. People that dedicate themselves solely to striking have similar complications.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Then maybe grapplers should settle down on boasting on how effective in real combat their limited methods are and stick to their rules.

I agree. In addition they're leaving out some facts, like that it's
not effective at all against mutiple attackers.

 

[Klondike93]

I was reading a Gracie book and at least they adimited it's not very effective against multiple attackers. But they do show some ways of dealing multiples.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk

like that it's
not effective at all against mutiple attackers.

This and the threat of weapons seem among the biggest arguments against a BJJ-only approach. In addition, going to the ground willingly seems to open up other problems (stuff on the ground, injuries while going down, etc.). I have started training BJJ as an addition--I think it's important to be preapred for that possibility--but I'd use standing techniques first (strikes as well as throws, especially those that throw someone away rather than down).

 

[Baoquan]

I agree.

For me, grappling is a *part* of an overall skillset that i wish to attain. Grappling is a range, not a style of fighting.

Cheers

Baoquan.

 

[bscastro]

Something that has been noticed in the few years since UFC and other NHB competitions are held are that many of the fighters are becoming more well-rounded. For example, Maurice Smith learned some grappling and many of the wrestlers worked in some boxing into their repertoires. I think this is a good thing because I think we can all agree that it is better to know both grappling and striking than to just know one to the exclusion of the other.

As for what rules may have favored grapplers, one example might have been from the Vake Tudo I saw in "Choke" with Rickson Gracie. Todd Hayes, the kickboxer, complained about the 6 oz. gloves they had to wear (I think they were 6 oz.). However, I think part of the reason was not to "weaken" the strikes, but to protect the hands. How many UFC's have we seen where the striker (e.g. Keith Hackney, Jon Hess, Steve Jennum) injured their hands from punching a guy in the face.

Of course, it is hard to have a pure no-holds-barred competition because of safety reason. However, I think the whole NHB competition era has been good for martial artists in general as it has opened many minds to different martial arts. Of course, many of these views have been mentioned in other threads, but I think it is good to repeat from time to time.

Cheers,
Bryan

 

[Damian Mavis]

Eye gouging
Groin striking
Biting

Those are the reasons alot of people think no holds barred isnt really no holds barred. Forget about safety...I'm talking life and death. I'm not a huge guy, if I feel sufficiently threatened I'm going to shove my thumb or finger through your eye socket and try to grab some brain. I'm not going to try to outduke or wrestle some maniac, I'm going to survive. And if that means biting your groin...erm wait that didn't come out right. Anyway, you get the idea.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[bscastro]

NHB is a sport, a competition. Self-defense is about survival. They are two different things. The original post was about grappling and striking in MMA/NHB competitions. Within that structure, it is about safety.

I think there are many cross-overs that NHB/MMA competitions and the type of training that goes into it can have for self-defense-minded martial artists. As I've mentioned in other posts, some of the skills utilized for NHB competitions are the same as self-defense, such as timing, speed, power, distance, etc. Also those who compete in these have learned to some extent to control their emotions and no freak out in a more intense situation (no, it's not the street, but I think many would agree that this type of "sparring" is quite intense).

As for groin biting, eye gouging, or what have you, the person in the better position has the better chance to utilize these tools.

Check out the Straight Blast Gym website for some other views on NHB and self-defense. Is it the only way to train self-defense, I don't think so. But I think NHB competition type training has something to offer martial artists.

Cheers,
Bryan

 

[Damian Mavis]

The groin biting was a joke...damn no one ever gets my jokes.
Guess thats why I teach martial arts and don't do stand up comedy.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD