MMA Rules and Groundfighting

[bscastro]

Ha ha...well, maybe I wasn't! Um...okay, I was.

I was watching a video covering "King of the Cage," a NHB competition, and two of the fighters, I think Frank Shamrock was one of them, had a discussion about the rules:

"Let's see, no groin strikes, fish hooks...hmm, they don't say anything about biting the groin!"

The other replied, "I bet they'll be more specific in their rules after a few good groin bites!" (or something referring to the groin bite).

The video (can't remember the name) wanted to take us into the mind of a NHB fighter. Maybe it succeeded, and now we want out!

Cheers,
Bryan

 

[Elfan]

The rules have changed a lot over the years and differ between events but one thing that seems constant is no kicking to a guy on the ground. Now, out of all the rules this seems to be the one that most favors a "ground person."

Lets say I'm a striker. Now if on the street if the other guy goes down (ie I hit him, he trips, punches me and misses, is a dumb BBJ person and just falls down for me) I can kick him effectively. However, in the UFC or similar events if he goes down ( and people really will just fall down and hope you jump on them) I have 2 choices, A) wait for him to get up or B) graple with him (not smart if he is a lot better on the ground). Neither of those is a good option.

 

[Kirk]

Fouls:
1: Butting with the head.
2: Eye gouging of any kind.
3: Biting.
4: Hair pulling.
5: Fish hooking.
6: Groin attacks of any kind.
7: Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8: Small joint manipulation.
9: Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10: Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11: Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12: Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13: Grabbing the clavicle.
14: Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15: Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16: Stomping a grounded opponent.
17: Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18: Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19: Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20: Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21: Spitting at an opponent.
22: Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23: Holding the ropes or the fence.
24: Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25: Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26: Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27: Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28: Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29: Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30: Interference by the corner.
31: Throwing in the towel during competition.

fouls that directly hinder a striker:

4
9
10
11
14
15
16
17

So a little over 1/3 of the fouls are directed at strikers. This doesn't say anything about people who like to stay on the ground, it just limits the ability of people who prefer to strike as a means of attacking. The limitations on some of those dirty techniques also alter the way you defend against submissions on the ground. Now I don't know if you would call JKD a traditional art, but given these rules alot of what JKD'ers do, both stand up and on the ground is out of bounds in the UFC. And if you think UFC is a street art, go roll around on a sidewalk. You don't have to do stand up-takedown, just do UFC style fighting on a hard un-even surface. Do it in full street cloths (that's another thing.. shin kicks are not nearly as effective without shoes)..

Bottom line is to fight in the UFC I would have to change major elements of my training focus, yet to fight on the street I would not.. which brings up another element.. if you fight someone on the street they can quite effectively employ other methods than what you train against, in otherwords UFC style fighting can NOT be used as a scale to rate martial arts for street effectiveness because you can't fight against what you would fight against on the street. It's comparing apples and oranges.


The above was taken from another post here ... and I can't remember who it was that wrote it

 

[ace]

Originally posted by Kirk
I agree. In addition they're leaving out some facts, like that it's
not effective at all against mutiple attackers.

Show Me a stand up art that is???/

Weapons Maybe But Multiple Attackers could Be
GRAPPLERS as Well There for if u can't beat 1 guy
WHAT MAKES U THINK U CAN BEAT MULTIPLES???????

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by ace
Show Me a stand up art that is???/

American Kenpo

Originally posted by ace
Weapons Maybe But Multiple Attackers could Be
GRAPPLERS as Well There for if u can't beat 1 guy
WHAT MAKES U THINK U CAN BEAT MULTIPLES???????

More of the incessant "my art is the superior art" garbage

You're gonna sit there and say that because you grapple, you
can beat up anyone from kenpo? karate? kung fu?

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by ace
Show Me a stand up art that is???/

Weapons Maybe But Multiple Attackers could Be
GRAPPLERS as Well There for if u can't beat 1 guy
WHAT MAKES U THINK U CAN BEAT MULTIPLES???????

I'd rather be standing up vs 3 duys then be on the ground with one with his buddies free to stab me in the back.

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by ace
Show Me a stand up art that is???/

Weapons Maybe But Multiple Attackers could Be
GRAPPLERS as Well There for if u can't beat 1 guy
WHAT MAKES U THINK U CAN BEAT MULTIPLES???????

Russian Martial Art - The System, or Systema if you prefer, is great for all of those areas. Good stand up, weapons, multiple attacks, mass attacks and ground fighting.

I'd rather be standing up vs 3 guys then be on the ground with one with his buddies free to stab me in the back.

This is so true and about the only major drawback of grappling for self defense and why the stand up crowd gives them such a hard time.


Klondike (aka Chuck)

:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Klondike93
This is so true and about the only major drawback of grappling for self defense and why the stand up crowd gives them such a hard time.

More like defend themselves. The MMA/grappling threads are
full of slams against strikers. I'd bet the count of slams against
stand up and/or traditional arts in these forums, plus the gen
forum will be higher than the slams against grapplers/mma'ers
on this entire board, collectively.

 

[ace]

Originally posted by Kirk
American Kenpo



More of the incessant "my art is the superior art" garbage

You're gonna sit there and say that because you grapple, you
can beat up anyone from kenpo? karate? kung fu?

Nope , but Your gonna say because U
U study a stand up styel U can beat mutipal attacker?????

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by ace
Nope , but Your gonna say because U
U study a stand up styel U can beat mutipal attacker?????

I'm saying that those who've learned the entire American kenpo
curriculum have increased chances of beating multiple attackers ...
the system was DESIGNED with that purpose in mind.

I'm also saying that BJJ was NOT designed with that purpose in
mind, and many of Gracies say that too.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kirk
I'm saying that those who've learned the entire American kenpo
curriculum have increased chances of beating multiple attackers ...
the system was DESIGNED with that purpose in mind.

I'm also saying that BJJ was NOT designed with that purpose in
mind, and many of Gracies say that too.

Oh boy, to agree with Kirk , I hope he does not think bad of me, now

In Modern Arnis, some of the drills we pratice are flow drills and these are used against multiple opponents. This does give an advantage against those who only study for one on one against the ground.

As with anything, what you train is what you will do. If you do not train for stand up and against multiple you might easily end up on the ground, and not doing well against your opponent and his friends. The same could be said of the stand up styles, that when / if they end up on the ground they will be at a loss for not having trained.

Yet, In my opinion, the stand up or striker styles stand a better chance against multiple opponents since they would most likely have practice and trained this way. Also, some of the stand up styles train to not to go to the ground. Using timing and techniques to keep your opponents off of you and hopefully off balance. This may not allow you to engage and or take out the opponent, yet you have not gone to the ground where his friends can take "free" shots at you.

Train Well
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

After about a year and a half of BJJ, I believe that the likelihood of biting and eye-gouging and such being of much value vs. a skilled groundfighter is fairly small. Of course it's worth trying if one is in that situation, but it sounds better in theory than in practice.

But I also feel that BJJ for self-defense doesn't worry enough about the possibility that the other person will draw a weapon. Not everyone draws their weapon at the start of a fight--be it because of time needed to draw it, not feeling the situation is that serious, not wanting to put oneself in danger of heavy jail time, etc. Many BJJ techniques would leave someone very open to a knife slipped out of a pocket and into the grappler.

 

[twinkletoes]

:shrug:

We are soooooo off topic right now.

The rules that were listed in a previous post on this thread are not the original rules. The original rules of the UFC were:

1) No eye gouging.

2) No biting.

3) No fishhooking (fingers in the nose or mouth).

These don't seem to favor anyone, in my book.


Add to that the following:

-In UFC #1, Gerard Gordeau did bite Royce's ear in the finals. Get your video out and watch it carefully. That's why Royce held the choke a little extra long at the end. Check Royce's ear in the post-fight footage. It's pretty obvious then.

-In Japan Vale Tudo #2, which is in "Choke", Japanese Fighter Yuki Nakai loses an eye to repeated face stomps by (hey, coincidence) Gerard Gordeau. GG stomps his face with his heel repeatedly, and then is leglocked by Nakai. A couple of weeks after the event, Nakai lost the eye permanently.

While I don't feel Nakai "won the battle" in this case, neither man was hindered by these attacks, even though they were against the existant rules.

~TT

 

[MJS]

As for the rules. Well, of course you have to have rules, otherwise there would only be one person walking out of the cage--literally!!! The other would be carried off to the cemetary! People get so wrapped up in what you can and cant do. First, people need to realize that this is just competition. Just because a grappler does not eye gouge, bite, hit the groin, etc. in the cage, does not mean that on the street they will not do it.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that the rules and things we can and cant do, is because of the country that we live in. If you watch Pride, which is in Japan, they can kick the downed opp. The fights in Brazil allow pretty much everything..hense the name Vale Tudo---Anything Goes!!! People always talk about rolling around on the ground. IF you watch some of the fihgts in Brazil, they take place on the ground, the beach, hard floors...not always on a padded mat.

When the 1st UFC came out, it was billed as anything goes---I think that was the first mistake, cuz there were rules. Anything goes, would mena you can do the things that are banned.

TT is correct in his post about the original 3 rules. Don't forget the fight with GG and the Sumo guy. He was down on all fours, while GG kicked him in the face!!

Also, remember we are talking about sport. No matter how you try to coat it, it is still a sport. You can however add the street flavor to it. Look at Paul Vunak. He talks about Kino Mutai--the art of biting! It looks and sounds easier than it is, but pick up his tapes on it. It will open your eyes! Alot of people think that a grappler will be defeated on the street by the strikers advantage. Well, look again. Alot of the BJJ guys are learning how to punch and kick. Belfort has some excellent punching! Marco Ruas also trains Muay Thai. So for anyone to say that the grappler is at a disadvantage, needs to look again!

Mike

 

[Elfan]

Acoordint to the annoucer at UFC 1, a violation of the "rules" was not a fowl or penalty, just a $1000 fine.

 

[twinkletoes]

The other penalty is that it makes Royce mad


I think that those who combine "dirty" tactics like biting and gouging with their fighting understand that grapplers can nullify these attacks: it is actually pretty easy to work in those defenses if you have a proper delivery system like BJJ. I'm not saying you can do it all the time--I've been bitten by Roy Harris--but you can do it a lot of the time. And if you've trained these things in conjunction with your other stuff, you are better prepared for an adversary who is going to do them too. (Especially as opposed to peope who reference them constantly as effective counter-grappling tactics but never try them live.)

So bringing this back to the original topic, I don't think that the rules favored anyone, especially since allowing those moves wouldn't really have helped the strikers any. Hair pulling and groin striking was allowed until somewhere around UFC 4: did that counter the grapplers?

For those of you who think the rules favored grapplers, what rule changes would you suggest to make it more fair? (I am speaking of pre-UFC 4, here. I think recent rules limit both striking and grappling).

~TT