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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
very big call to say people are participating in a sport that has no moral compass.
mma is a made up martial art.
- Thread starter drop bear
- Start date
very big call to say people are participating in a sport that has no moral compass.
Dr.Smith
Orange Belt
Well not to argue just to argue but the UFC is pretty much about sex,drugs (steroids and pot) and rock and roll isnt it? I mean a UFC match resembles a concert as much as a fight these days anyway.
Drop bear I for one do not feel that participants in MMA lack a moral compass. My first hand experience with mma athletes has always been positive. So please do not put words in my mouth. I just reiterated what a BJJ practitioner who is a friend of mine commented on. (I can show you a link if you wish it via pm) That friend has also been in the cage many a time and trains with one of my students who also has over thirty mma matches. MMA as in the UFC (which is what he was commenting on and Jon Jones in particular) is a brand, a business and a sport no different on many levels than the NFL, etc. Does Jon Jones represent all of MMA? I don't think so but he certainly is the champion in the largest organization in the world and many feel after the shenanigans with Cormier, etc. that he is not representing it positively. If you watched the fight last night you would have noticed he was even a sore winner after the fight.
MMA = Mixed Martial Arts and that is not going to ever change. But is it the right moniker?
Dr. Smith does make a valid comment about where the UFC is at this time. I do not think you want to go down the road of all the negative things associated with the UFC and it's current and former fighters. The list is so long I would get tired linking to all of them. Nor is anyone saying that all UFC mma fighters are bad as that is ridiculous. There are a lot of good people participating in the sport and also the UFC. Someone from the same BJJ group that I come from fought last night in the UFC and he is a good guy and there are a lot more. Royce is a great guy and he started the whole thing. GSP is a great guy. Yet, you cannot ignore what some fighters are doing or have done.
Very few of the fighters should be considered role models just like the NFL, NBA, etc. This is a business and it is in the entertainment category. So........ sex, drugs, roided up athletes, intrigue, rock and roll sells. It has worked for the NBA, NFL and just about any other professional sports league. The business is doing very well. (ie. the UFC)
Having said all of the above I like watching the UFC and have from the beginning but I also understand what it is. It is entertainment, pure and simple!
MMA = Mixed Martial Arts and that is not going to ever change. But is it the right moniker?
Dr. Smith does make a valid comment about where the UFC is at this time. I do not think you want to go down the road of all the negative things associated with the UFC and it's current and former fighters. The list is so long I would get tired linking to all of them. Nor is anyone saying that all UFC mma fighters are bad as that is ridiculous. There are a lot of good people participating in the sport and also the UFC. Someone from the same BJJ group that I come from fought last night in the UFC and he is a good guy and there are a lot more. Royce is a great guy and he started the whole thing. GSP is a great guy. Yet, you cannot ignore what some fighters are doing or have done.
Very few of the fighters should be considered role models just like the NFL, NBA, etc. This is a business and it is in the entertainment category. So........ sex, drugs, roided up athletes, intrigue, rock and roll sells. It has worked for the NBA, NFL and just about any other professional sports league. The business is doing very well. (ie. the UFC)
Having said all of the above I like watching the UFC and have from the beginning but I also understand what it is. It is entertainment, pure and simple!
OP
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
lol. Not really.
this boils down to the idea that mma is cool. And it really isn't.
honestly it is mostly a sweaty guy sitting on top of you punching you in the face.
OP
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
so before i address that do you think your friend is right or wrong in his opinion of mma?
because you have sort of said it wasn't your idea and then you have defended it.
i don't get offended by people who think mma is a thugs game. But there are reasons why i think they are wrong.
This is a "judgement free zone", Drop Bear. If that's what you're into, that's cool.
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
ok here is the meat of the matter.
Martial arts is a business. With all the negative aspects that goes with it.
Man I would to see how the big the broom is that you sweep the patio with. Now you saying that MA is a business, what?? Could elaborate on what you exactly mean on that?
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
that mma does not have a monopoly on being a product of capitalism. I paid for pretty much all my martial arts training.
Well that is somewhat obvious, I have had to pay for whatever I have done too, but that does not strictly make for a business enterprise, but a place of learning. Yeah so you get a father and son/daughter situation with free training, but I bet they would still have to contribute a few quid for grading, equipment or whatever. Does that make it a business, or a capitalist venture? Tbh using "capitalism" in sense is out of kilter anyway.
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
it depends on the individual. But i don't think mma is inherently less charity focused than tma.
so to call out mma as a business is to ignore the reality that everybody else is one as well.
You said it man, not me
Then again you have missed my point, and I doubt I could convey it any other way. I'm out of here.
we may be starting to drift from MMA being made up with statements like "that mma does not have a monopoly on being a product of capitalism. I paid for pretty much all my martial arts training." but I will agree that most martial arts schools charge for there services.
Yes the commercial side of the art is seen in people charging for training time and in the fact that some aspects of the art is televised. But was an art (MMA) actually created for this reason or was it a logical outcome of people cross training
To me MMA as it exists today is not a art at all, it is a combination of arts that are being combined and is to fragmented in its approach in training by the different "schools" to be labeled a single art.
Yes the commercial side of the art is seen in people charging for training time and in the fact that some aspects of the art is televised. But was an art (MMA) actually created for this reason or was it a logical outcome of people cross training
To me MMA as it exists today is not a art at all, it is a combination of arts that are being combined and is to fragmented in its approach in training by the different "schools" to be labeled a single art.
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
well the ufc was originally designed to show how great gjj was.
the argument i have heard is that mma is not an art. It is a rule set. But then again Greg Jackson is giving out belts in mma.
and a Greg Jackson black belt is going to be a very real black belt.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
For the most part, this is a true statement. We can all agree (I think) that when we gripe about the things we see in TMA, MMA or really anything else, they often have to do with commercialization and ways to monetize a hobby. Making money often comes at a cost (no pun intended).
TKD... there are some great schools out there, I hear. I personally don't see those. Granted, I'm not looking, so I'm going to take you guys at your word. But the TKD schools I see are the ones full of kids in the strip mall down the street.
There are notable exceptions. Not every school is run for profit. We hear about schools that are run as clubs or non-profits all the time in the USA. It is actually very rare to find a Judo school in the USA that is run for profit. That doesn't mean their free. It means, though, that they can dispense with marketability and focus on the art.
All of that said, your point is a good one. Unless you're running a school as a non-profit, a charity, a club or just flat out teaching for free, you're tossing stones in a glass house. Any criticism of MMA for effective marketing just doesn't resonate. Even within the MMA community, there are folks who like to think of themselves as purists. Like it or not, the UFC is putting money in everyone's pockets. If you aren't riding the MMA tide, you're marketing yourself against it. It's generated a lot of interest in martial arts in general, and is giving a lot of martial artists an opportunity to make a living doing what they enjoy.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I'd say that now, as in the past, MMA is a sport. The recipe for success in the sport is evolving. This is really true specifically since the UFC adopted the unified rules in ~2003 and was able to actually get an MMA event sanctioned by the Nevada Gaming Commission. That was when MMA became a legitimate, marketable and profitable sport.
I don't think drop bear disagrees with any of that. I think his point is something like the following:
Whatever art you train, you are only as good as your training partners and your competition. When you get a large number of talented people from around the world training full time in an effort to surpass each other, then you end up having an accelerated evolution of the art in question. Whether you are talking MMA, professional boxing, or Olympic Judo, you end up with something well beyond what you'll see from the hobbyists at the local dojo.
The ideals professed by many martial arts instructors are great, but in reality martial artists don't typically abide by those ideals any better than anyone else. Some MMA competitors may act like jerks, but I doubt the percentage of badly-behaving MMA competitors is significantly different from the percentage of badly-behaving karate/kung fu/tae kwon do instructors
Well, Dana White certainly believes in marketing the UFC as an entertainment spectacle. That's not to say the individual fighters necessarily are more concerned with entertainment than with testing themselves and their art. (Some certainly do buy into the whole entertainment game - see Chael Sonnen - but not all.)
Then again, I don't think that "sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll" or the absence thereof has a lot of relevance to whether someone has a moral compass.
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
And that is not even taking in to account all the non monetary reasons why a martial art school may be considered morally corrupt.
(i am using martial art as a generic here. So i mean mma in that umbrella as well.)
true the original ufc or MMA matches where people from different disciplines competing against each other. Karate against boxing, wrestlers vs judo, bjj vs kung fu, etc. The funny thing about that is they told the kung fu people they could not go to the ground and fight from there after a few fights. BUt mostly it was set up with les than great people to match against the Gracies at that time
that is my thought on it also but it is fast becoming a way to train and will be considered a form of martial art by those who look back on it in the future
No I have a very broad view of mma and the UFC in particular. I do not see mma as bad or the UFC as bad. I actually enjoy watching mma and in particular the UFC. My experience with mma practitioiner's in real life has always been positive. My experience with BJJ practitioner's who were also mma fighters has been steller. Yet, there are mma practitioner's that I do not want to associate with. Like with anything and any business their are shades or grey. Everything is not all cut black and white!
