Just ruminating on this old question after reading Kamon Guy's post about Sifu Kevin Chan's recent achievement of earning the coveted black belt rank in BJJ. Some traditionalists believe that if your WC/WT is really good, that is all you need. Others mix in so many arts and approaches that even the JKD guys shake their heads. Anyone care to weigh in?
Mixing WC and other styles?
- Thread starter geezer
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
As someone who practices a couple different systems, including Wing Chun, I'll give you my thoughts on it.
I do believe that if you are really proficient with any art, you probably don't need to study many different arts and mix them together. This doesn't mean that every art contains every element of combat to an equal degree. Far from it. It is very obvious that most arts have a stylistic approach to combat which focuses on specific methods, altho elements of other methods may also exist within the system. Meaning: an art that focuses heavily on striking and kicking as the favored approach may still contain some throwing and grappling and joint locking methods, altho they may not be as thoroughly developed as an art that focuses on these methods primarily. But of course the second art may lack in the striking and kicking area.
However, if you gain true ability in any art, I believe that you ought to have the tools necessary to handle any kind of combative scenario. Just make sure you fight YOUR fight, and don't let someone sucker you into fighting HIS fight.
As for myself, I practice several different arts simply out of curiosity. I seem to be cursed with a never-ending perpetual curiosity and I just can't seem to help myself. I find it fascinating to explore the different approaches to training in martial arts. I do not practice different arts to plug "holes" in the system, so to speak.
That being said, I feel if you do practice more than one art, it is best to practice them separately from each other. Different arts are built upon a certain base, which makes their specific techniques work. If you try to graft those techs onto a different base from a different art, they often do not work as well or even fail miserably. This is not always true of course, some things blend well, but in general I believe it holds water.
So practice them separately for what they have to offer individually. Don't mix them up and build a hodge-podge style of mix-and-match stuff that doesn't function well together. But, if you ever need to actually use your skills in a fight, you can switch up your methods and use whatever is most appropriate under the circumstances.
As a side note, my martial origins are in Tracy kenpo. Years later, when I was studying wing chun, I did find elements of my kenpo techs creeping into my chi sau practice. It seemed to me that some of that material did in fact blend pretty naturally and efficiently.
I do believe that if you are really proficient with any art, you probably don't need to study many different arts and mix them together. This doesn't mean that every art contains every element of combat to an equal degree. Far from it. It is very obvious that most arts have a stylistic approach to combat which focuses on specific methods, altho elements of other methods may also exist within the system. Meaning: an art that focuses heavily on striking and kicking as the favored approach may still contain some throwing and grappling and joint locking methods, altho they may not be as thoroughly developed as an art that focuses on these methods primarily. But of course the second art may lack in the striking and kicking area.
However, if you gain true ability in any art, I believe that you ought to have the tools necessary to handle any kind of combative scenario. Just make sure you fight YOUR fight, and don't let someone sucker you into fighting HIS fight.
As for myself, I practice several different arts simply out of curiosity. I seem to be cursed with a never-ending perpetual curiosity and I just can't seem to help myself. I find it fascinating to explore the different approaches to training in martial arts. I do not practice different arts to plug "holes" in the system, so to speak.
That being said, I feel if you do practice more than one art, it is best to practice them separately from each other. Different arts are built upon a certain base, which makes their specific techniques work. If you try to graft those techs onto a different base from a different art, they often do not work as well or even fail miserably. This is not always true of course, some things blend well, but in general I believe it holds water.
So practice them separately for what they have to offer individually. Don't mix them up and build a hodge-podge style of mix-and-match stuff that doesn't function well together. But, if you ever need to actually use your skills in a fight, you can switch up your methods and use whatever is most appropriate under the circumstances.
As a side note, my martial origins are in Tracy kenpo. Years later, when I was studying wing chun, I did find elements of my kenpo techs creeping into my chi sau practice. It seemed to me that some of that material did in fact blend pretty naturally and efficiently.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Flying Crane pretty much covered it
Is it necessary? I would say no. If you train your chosen style like it is meant to be I do not see a reason
Can you combine arts? Yes if that is what you want. My only issue here is when someone combines 2 or 3 arts and continues to call it by one of those names when it is now something different.
Wing Chun + BJJ does not equal Wing Chun or BJJ
Taijiquan + Karate does not equal Taijiquan or Karate
BJJ + Muay Thai does not equal BJJ or Muay Thai > but it does equal MMA
Long Fist + Qinna + Shuaijiao + Baiji does not equal any of those > but it might be Sanda
I have no problem with combining arts, you can get some pretty impressive styles out of that, jut don't try and pass it off as something it is not. But if you train just 1 art and train it well with a good teacher that is fine too.
Is it necessary? I would say no. If you train your chosen style like it is meant to be I do not see a reason
Can you combine arts? Yes if that is what you want. My only issue here is when someone combines 2 or 3 arts and continues to call it by one of those names when it is now something different.
Wing Chun + BJJ does not equal Wing Chun or BJJ
Taijiquan + Karate does not equal Taijiquan or Karate
BJJ + Muay Thai does not equal BJJ or Muay Thai > but it does equal MMA
Long Fist + Qinna + Shuaijiao + Baiji does not equal any of those > but it might be Sanda
I have no problem with combining arts, you can get some pretty impressive styles out of that, jut don't try and pass it off as something it is not. But if you train just 1 art and train it well with a good teacher that is fine too.
almost a ghost
Blue Belt
Xue and Crane have really hit the nail on the head!!!
graychuan
Blue Belt
On another tangent but hopefully fits the criterium of the thread...
I have also found that most artists who successfully blend more than one style are experienced and have internalized the fundamentals of one( thier core or 'mother' system) to a very high degree. Higher than what just is required for first level black belt. Also any artists or masters that I have personally been impressed with have all studied more than one style but formally and openly stick to thier core.
Maybe this is due to the fact that the blending is more of principles and concepts instead of forms, kata and san sik. This way the core of one art isnt actually changed but can still benefit from information from another art.
Im just grabbing here but just one way to look at it. :wink1:
I have also found that most artists who successfully blend more than one style are experienced and have internalized the fundamentals of one( thier core or 'mother' system) to a very high degree. Higher than what just is required for first level black belt. Also any artists or masters that I have personally been impressed with have all studied more than one style but formally and openly stick to thier core.
Maybe this is due to the fact that the blending is more of principles and concepts instead of forms, kata and san sik. This way the core of one art isnt actually changed but can still benefit from information from another art.
Im just grabbing here but just one way to look at it. :wink1:
profesormental
Brown Belt
Greetings.
It is important to note the following: Styles are not ways of fighting; "styles" are methods for TRAINING.
The training methods program certain actions, reactions, strategies and tactics in a way that we execute them when needed.
Many factors come into the time of Truth when we execute for real; sport competition or self defense/combat type situation.
Our mental training, attitudes and attributes come into play... our physical ability to execute can be very much enhanced by training.
The training will dictate our predilections in acting in situations similar to what we have trained.
So what does "mixing styles" really mean? This is a real important question.
Sincerely,
Juan M. Mercado
It is important to note the following: Styles are not ways of fighting; "styles" are methods for TRAINING.
The training methods program certain actions, reactions, strategies and tactics in a way that we execute them when needed.
Many factors come into the time of Truth when we execute for real; sport competition or self defense/combat type situation.
Our mental training, attitudes and attributes come into play... our physical ability to execute can be very much enhanced by training.
The training will dictate our predilections in acting in situations similar to what we have trained.
So what does "mixing styles" really mean? This is a real important question.
Sincerely,
Juan M. Mercado
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
for me, mixing styles means being open to learn from anyone. it is almost like being a seeker for something. for most people, the value and image of the arts are changing all the time as the practitioner grows. there are those that are seeking skills and there are those that are seeking a way to live by. also people that have both these qualities. but those that are seeking skill i believe would be most wise to learn from as many arts as possible. maybe not all ma styles, but definately i think the more the better- same goes for the study of spirituality or religion for the purposes of selfimprovement.
to be confronted by many, the singular art is challenged in a way. not destroyed i think just challenged. it could be destructive but it could also be purifying.
that would be like saying that any martial artist that ever got into a real fight, would automatically be a loser and the only winners would be the people that never ever fought before. and that's not really true necessarily although perhaps applaudable, i wouldnt admire inexperience either. ultimately, every confrontation, there is a mixing of styles. impossible to be completely alone, even within a martial art, there are various styles.
j
to be confronted by many, the singular art is challenged in a way. not destroyed i think just challenged. it could be destructive but it could also be purifying.
that would be like saying that any martial artist that ever got into a real fight, would automatically be a loser and the only winners would be the people that never ever fought before. and that's not really true necessarily although perhaps applaudable, i wouldnt admire inexperience either. ultimately, every confrontation, there is a mixing of styles. impossible to be completely alone, even within a martial art, there are various styles.
j
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
Mixing styles (well, cross training in general) can be useful. It gives you new perspective on the training you already have, and the techniques you already know. Look at Win Sao. On the surface it appears to be just about building up your forarms. But, a little Aikido training and shows itself to be an opening for a wrist lock (called Kote Gaeishi, if I'm not mistaken). A little Judo explains why you would block behind yourself in Sui Nim Tao. And so on, and so on.
Please note that whilst Kevin Chan is very proficient at BJJ, he does not merge it into the wing chun system. Cratinly we work on clinches and learning to mould into it and around them but we train our wing chun drills and then (for those that want to do it) he hosts BJJ seminars
I have learnt about seven different styles of martial arts, but try to keep them seperate. To merge a move with another move is dangerous, as you are not only switching tchnique, but energy and structure.
But at the end of the day, each to their own. I have never seen a good fighter who has merged techniques. Even the UFC fighters tend to play a a certain style while upright and then switch to another style if it goes to the ground. To merge between styles while upright or on the floor is risky
I have learnt about seven different styles of martial arts, but try to keep them seperate. To merge a move with another move is dangerous, as you are not only switching tchnique, but energy and structure.
But at the end of the day, each to their own. I have never seen a good fighter who has merged techniques. Even the UFC fighters tend to play a a certain style while upright and then switch to another style if it goes to the ground. To merge between styles while upright or on the floor is risky
This makes sense. Carelessly mixing contradictory approaches can lead to conflicts of "energy and structure" as you say. By sticking to a cosistent approach at each range, for example Muay Thai at long range, then WC for close range, and BJJ for grappling and groundwork, you effectively maximize the strengths of each without creating a mish-mash.
graychuan
Blue Belt
Hey, Guys...with this being said im interested in opinions on the idea of using chi-sao principles and sticking while mounted on someone or having someone in your guard. Ive seen this debated a lot in other forums and maybe even this one. IMHO I can see the connection however the whole idea of Wing Chun's sensitivity is based on the structure and understanding of YGKYM and SLT. Im not so sure that these can be applied when on your back or mounted on someone because being on the ground takes you out of the 'idea' of the motherline, chum, chi sao and all that. Why jam, wedge, slice and cut to make them fight for balance when you are already on the ground?
SO I tend to agree with you Geezer on this point you guys have made. I really dont think the idea of Chi-Sao is applicable in the ground. Thats what I would think grappling is for. Since I am not a grappler then I would assume there are other concepts that are unique to ground fighting that work sensitivity on the ground? Is this true? Maybe not? Anyone have any input that doesnt take us too far off topic?
Thanks :boing1:
~Cg~
Actually, if you look at Chi-Sau as being sensitivity training that let's you use and exploit your opponent's force--then grappling is just whole-body chi-sau. At least that's my perspective as a guy who wrestled as a youth before going into WC some decades back.
graychuan
Blue Belt
Hey thats great, man. To be really honest...although I have always been athletic I have never really had that eye of the tiger. Ive always enjoyed sports for fun period so I never really got too much involved in highschool sports. Id rather be at the park with the fellas hooping instead. I took to the martial arts just for this reason. Maybe a little selfish but at least I wasnt held back for anyone else and noone was held back cause 'o me. But in my experience most guys my age (35) have always had some kind of wrestling background from Highschool dayz or even younger. I am not one of these. But ALL and I do mean ALL of these guys still had a very solid basic skill at wrestling or grappling. Even after years they could still be effective at this. I was always impressed by that.
Have you considered training any type of grappling these days? I have thought about it.
I agree, and apparently Sifu Chan does too--since he took up BJJ. Most WC and WT Sifus would not agree though. It takes a lot of humility for an established Sifu to admit that he doesn't have all the answers and publicly start training in a completely different system. I really respect that.
One of our instructors, Lee Saunders, is an accomplshed black belt in Judo
There is a clip of him on youtube doing some boxing and Judo (type in 'lee saunders kamon')
It is very important to know an art's limits.
In boxing, you're punching is the best around. But legs are vulnerable
In kickboxing, you are a good at punching and kicking but if the fight goes to the floor or close range, the kickboxer will struggle
In BJJ, you are grat at short range clinch and floorwork, but there is no long range game
This doesn't mean that the arts aren't good, only that they specialize in certain areas
In wing chun, there is no ground game and it is often very hard to keep up with a light footed boxer/sparrer
Therefore it is good to understand other arts and train them.
My advice from a personal perspective is don't train them altogether - train one for a few years and then move on
I did karate for 7 years before I did wing chun
I did wing chun for 6 years before I did boxing
There is a clip of him on youtube doing some boxing and Judo (type in 'lee saunders kamon')
It is very important to know an art's limits.
In boxing, you're punching is the best around. But legs are vulnerable
In kickboxing, you are a good at punching and kicking but if the fight goes to the floor or close range, the kickboxer will struggle
In BJJ, you are grat at short range clinch and floorwork, but there is no long range game
This doesn't mean that the arts aren't good, only that they specialize in certain areas
In wing chun, there is no ground game and it is often very hard to keep up with a light footed boxer/sparrer
Therefore it is good to understand other arts and train them.
My advice from a personal perspective is don't train them altogether - train one for a few years and then move on
I did karate for 7 years before I did wing chun
I did wing chun for 6 years before I did boxing
qwksilver61
Black Belt
Just my two cents,no. I trained in Judo and traditional Kwon Jae Hwa TaeKwonDo and weapons.Basically what I learned was;not being large @5'7" I had to generate tremendous amounts of power especially against a larger opponent to take him down without killing him (controlled,sparring) That is why I leaned to the Chinese arts,they have always appealed to me.I was searching for something similar to Aikido but aggressive and devastating at the same time.
When I discovered Wing Tsun,it was awkward.I had to give up trying to power my way through.The first time I borrowed my opponents force,I was blown away.I had a rather large opponent,a construction worker to be exact,the more he powered in the more he ate it,add speed,turnstile,straight lines,protractor,and the wall bag drills,Wham-o!.I knew right then where I needed to be,studying this incredible art.To me it is a complete art,I just wish I had all of it.My other wish was to come back as Sonny Chiba or a master Ninja........all true..all true..
When I discovered Wing Tsun,it was awkward.I had to give up trying to power my way through.The first time I borrowed my opponents force,I was blown away.I had a rather large opponent,a construction worker to be exact,the more he powered in the more he ate it,add speed,turnstile,straight lines,protractor,and the wall bag drills,Wham-o!.I knew right then where I needed to be,studying this incredible art.To me it is a complete art,I just wish I had all of it.My other wish was to come back as Sonny Chiba or a master Ninja........all true..all true..
Nicely put. As a large guy I have experienced it from the other side. A lot of other arts rely to much on equalling out the sizes which is disappointing. I like to train with people of all sizes. One TKD club I trained with would not let me do any street or sparring techniques with anyone smaller than me. I asked them what the smaller person would do if they came up against a bigger guy and they told me it would never happen!!!!
Some schools (I am pleased to say) do manage to generat a huge amount of power in spite of size. One of my MT partners can floor me with a kick and he is half my size!
Some schools (I am pleased to say) do manage to generat a huge amount of power in spite of size. One of my MT partners can floor me with a kick and he is half my size!
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